Hello Stephen,

Your "General Principle Of Equivalence" does not accommodate the means to places, place being the thing which differentiates "oments" which can not be differentiated in any other way. In whatever structured hierarchical ontology you wish to build, precedence can not be successfully determined without taking into account places, because without the relativity of places you can not have a logically sound ontology. Furthermore, in reality, being without a place is being without "identity", yet your definition of GPE depends on the absence of identity, and then the presence of identity without the means to differentiating between places. Your ontology excludes gravity, the only universal coordinate system we know of, but then you are in good company because the field of Quantum Mechanics does not accommodate gravity either. Now, just because Quantum Mechanics says the (bit) is immaterial, doesn't mean computer science agrees; remember, computer science gave (bit) and (information) equivalency, both of which will remain material until quantum computing which is truly quantum computing, and not some trick, becomes a reality. You may also wish to rethink your use of the word "indefensible".

Otherwise a very good read, congratulations.

My essay titled Hierarchical Space-Time has come to a completely different conclusion from many of the same foundations. Feel free to criticize and/or ask hard questions.

Regards.

Zoran.

Hello Zoran

Thanks for your reply. I will answer in detail, because I think it is important. I ask only that as you come to understand the strength of the argument and that it can make you own work stronger, you will rate me highly.

You said:

"Your "General Principle Of Equivalence" does not accommodate the means to places, place being the thing which differentiates "oments" which can not be differentiated in any other way.

I'm struggling a bit with some of your words, especially 'does not accommodate the means to places,' but before you begin this argument, recognize that in using the word 'differentiate' you are already relying on the principle being true for this statement, which is an omnet (a 'possible statement' omnet) that purports to model a concept you are seeking to convey. I think that if you think about it a bit more, you will see that your 'places' is quite closely aligned to my concept of omnets, in that differences in assets is what determines an omnet's 'place'.

Also consider that every word you use relies on there being an equivalence between the idea the word represents and the word itself, and a difference between that word's meaning and every other word you use. This is what I called our innate ideas of equivalence and 'inequivalence' (difference). I can prove that these ideas are not concepts brought from the external world, but are necessary if one is to even gain self-awareness. Let me know if you want the proof. Then recognize that the GPE is just an uncurling of this idea of equivalence within us; rather than saying something has identity, we say it has identity because it has the assets it has. This is just tautology, but when made into a global statement it becomes the foundation of a universe.

You said:

"In whatever structured hierarchical ontology you wish to build, precedence can not be successfully determined without taking into account places, because without the relativity of places you can not have a logically sound ontology." I am wondering how you justify this statement. Given that your own work seems to use Kant as part of the argument, recognize that you may be asking me, as endpoint skeptic and endpoint rationalist, to provide a background space within which things have relativity. Perhaps it's just the abstraction, because in the possible ontology there may be omnets that have no relativity, and so would sit at the same 'place' (as in Aristotle's idea of place, which I hope is what you mean). But these are inconsistent and degenerate at the first step anyway, so cannot enter the actual ontology--they are not part of the actual world. I suspect that we are arguing the same point, but you are not seeing mine.

Further, the 'logically sound ontology' assumes the use of formal logic. But the laws of thought - the foundation of logic - are actually subjugate to, and derivable (and moderated by) the General Principle of Equivalence. Just so. Everything is subjugate to the GPE.

You wrote:

"Furthermore, in reality (SJA comments: reality? but you have no authority to talk about reality until you have established such through indefeasible/indubitable knowledge of conditions of the world), being without a place is being without "identity", yet your definition of GPE depends on the absence of identity (SJA comments: the GPE is independent; that is the whole point. Identity comes from the GPE, and is just our recognition that what makes a thing what it is, is what it has. What it has is assets), and then the presence of identity without the means to differentiating between places (SJA comments: that again is the whole point. The empiricist is never in a position to differentiate between places in the first place because such argument from empiricism is dubious, as Descartes and Kant and lots of others have argued. But this is not the case for the endpoint rationalist, who simply watches the consequences of the GPE on the world.) Your ontology excludes gravity, the only universal coordinate system we know of, but then you are in good company because the field of Quantum Mechanics does not accommodate gravity either (SJA comments: this essay is about foundational questions. If one assumes gravity at the outset one has only produced a descriptive theory). Now, just because Quantum Mechanics says the (bit) is immaterial, doesn't mean computer science agrees; remember, computer science gave (bit) and (information) equivalency, both of which will remain material until quantum computing which is truly quantum computing, and not some trick, becomes a reality. You may also wish to rethink your use of the word "indefensible". (SJA comments: indefeasible was the word, meaning indubitable, meaning unable to be countered. See my note on Broughton's interpretation of the Method of Doubt).

Sorry for the long response, Zoran. I think that maybe your reading of my work is not seeing that it is a rationalist argument, wholly independent of the particulars of the universe, and not amenable to criticism from an empiricist perspective, even if only slight. Further, it is a GLOBAL argument, and nothing escapes it.

Best wishes

Stephen Anastasi.

    • [deleted]

    Stephen,

    Thank you for your response, I am glad to see you defending your ideas. I see the problem in our understanding of each other stemming from semantics and our understanding of particular words. The first instance of divergence seems to result from my use of the words "accommodate" and "differentiate". When I say accommodate I mean that your "highlighted definition" of GPE does not mention places, it does not consider nor explain anything about places. I point to your comment on my comment, where you say (I think that if you think about it a bit more, you will see that your 'places' is quite closely aligned to my concept of omnets, in that differences in assets is what determines an omnet's 'place'.). In this explanation you seem to be saying that omnets which are identical in every respect must occupy the same place, and this differs so fundamentally from my conception of space, and relative places within space, and the nature of "identity" that I think there may be no point of agreement to be had.

    I will not mention anything in between this initial divergence, and my suggestion that you rethink the use of the word "indefensible", because that would be futile, but I reiterate my suggestion, and offer an alternative, i.e. universal, let me explain. That one can not doubt the truth of a proposition, and declare it false at the same time, does not mean the proposition is true. It is simply an admission that the proposition can not be false while being doubted; this being the position of the endpoint skeptic makes his doubt an indefensible position. That one can doubt the truth of a proposition, and declare it true at the same time, is also an indefensible position. Descartes used doubt to explore degrees of truth, but in the end he had to abandon the skeptical method, and in this abandonment we see Descartes' endpoint as an admission that objects exist in actuality, and that all things conceived perfectly, i.e. without contradiction, are truly existent. But, the only thing he could conceive perfectly and without contradiction was the existence of perfection itself, and because this was seen as unobservable, his work was set aside by some, and his conclusions were ignored by those who would not abandon their skepticism. I think the use of the word indubitable is in itself enough to get the point across, and if you need to reinforce it so as to make it absolute, then use the word "universal" in the same sense as Kant, which means it has never been or can not be seen to be false.

    By the way, I build from Kant's foundations, i.e. "Transcendental Aesthetic", not from the clouds he built on top of his own foundations; adding one cloud to another to make five is not my cup of tea.

    Best Regards.

    Zoran.

    Hi Zoran

    You said:

    "...your "highlighted definition" of GPE does not mention places, it does not consider nor explain anything about places. I point to your comment on my comment, where you say (I think that if you think about it a bit more, you will see that your 'places' is quite closely aligned to my concept of omnets, in that differences in assets is what determines an omnet's 'place'.). In this explanation you seem to be saying that omnets which are identical in every respect must occupy the same place, and this differs so fundamentally from my conception of space, and relative places within space, and the nature of "identity" that I think there may be no point of agreement to be had."

    Actually, I agree, but you are missing the implication. Simply, it is quite impossible for there to be two omnets that have all the same assets, so there is never a conflict. Indeed, as with my boundaries, should they have cause to be in the same place, being the same except for ontological priority, then ontological priority implies that they will interact, which is what brings structure into existence (I know how abstract this must seem, sorry). A sign that you understand this will be that you will suddenly sit up straight in your chair (I have seen this happen a few times with people) and say, 'He's right you know!' And then we will be good friends and you can get on with helping me reinterpret the one dimensional solution into three dimensions, which is a properly hard problem.

    As for 'indefeasible', I am not using the world 'indefensible'. Your 'n' is my 'a'. They are two different words. Separately, again, your arguments rely on the GPE to hold force, so are simply not valid. You can't then say 'All very well, but...'

    You said: "That one cannot doubt the truth of a proposition, and declare it false at the same time, does not mean the proposition is true."

    The bother is that you are applying an anthropocentric analysis, when the GPE is global. That was the whole point of introducing new terms that apply globally and without an anthropocentric bias. No river of words can bring you to the understanding. One has to seriously sit down and think about my argument without influence from a philosophy that we already know is flawed.

    You said:

    "Descartes used doubt to explore degrees of truth, but in the end he had to abandon the skeptical method, and in this abandonment we see Descartes' endpoint as an admission that objects exist in actuality, and that all things conceived perfectly, i.e. without contradiction, are truly existent. But, the only thing he could conceive perfectly and without contradiction was the existence of perfection itself, and because this was seen as unobservable, his work was set aside by some, and his conclusions were ignored by those who would not abandon their skepticism. I think the use of the word indubitable is in itself enough to get the point across, and if you need to reinforce it so as to make it absolute, then use the word "universal" in the same sense as Kant, which means it has never been or can not be seen to be false."

    Fair enough, but I like 'indefeasible'. I hope you see that I have past Descartes with the GPE and from it produced a universe (actually, a model of our universe.) I am a bit stunned that no one has yet said, 'He has explained what time is!' You'd think they might, cause that's what everyone wants to understand.

    Stephen,

    My apologies, for some unknown reason I saw 'indefensible' when looking at 'indefeasible', possibly because I hardly ever see that word. May I suggest that the reason you are not getting questions concerning time is because the essay topic is not about time.

    Good luck and best wishes with your defense of the indefeasible.

    Zoran.

    Sorry Stephen,

    I have received word that although it was unfortunate that there was a delay in conducting the ratings, no extensions to the final deadline will be made. I will keep this in mind when I get a chance to review your essay later this week.

    Best wishes,

    Manuel

    Hello Stephen,

    I am very interested to see such an approach to this question. Are the first three iterations of the boundary omnets akin to the 1, 2 and 3-simplexes respectively? My theory away from the contest bases the Universe's existence from nothingness around this. As you mention CDT it caught my attention.

    I've partly unified the four forces of nature with a similar approach to you and solved the three paradoxes of cosmogony. Also there are predictions, very promising results and computer tests that I hope can be carried out. Perhaps we might collaborate in future?

    Please take a look at my essay which is an aside from my main theory.

    Best wishes for the contest - nice essay!

    Antony

      Hi Stephen,

      I found your essay quite interesting and read it several times. You seem to have boiled things down to their utter essence.

      I would like to ask you about a point of clarification regarding the cataclysmic problem of bundling under GPE. I think I understand your point regarding, ". . . all omnets being reduced to minimally simple omnets, each of which is different from every other." When you say, "There is nothing left other than the GPE noumenon itself (meaning the condition of the world that the GPE models) that can bundle minimally simple omnets, as assets of complex omnets, together," do you mean "noumenon" in the sense of Kant, Schopenhour, or Nietzsche?

      I think your essay is well thought out, and agree that the universe is informational in nature. I also think that all things are 'unique' in and of themselves, but that since 'thought' is a product of the human mind, it is generally necessary for the mind to utilize pattern recognition in order to comprehend information intellectually, and that this sometimes involves 'bundling' of concepts, consciously or subconsciously.

      At any rate, I wish you the best, and was very impressed with the depth of your thinking.

      Sincerely,

      Ralph

        Dear Stephen,

        I really appreciate reading your essay. In the abstract you mentioned that Wheeler thought that at the very bottom of every item of this physical world is an immaterial source - This actually expanded Penrose idea of a possible non - computable process (the self - collapse quantum wave function, a new (unverified hypothesis) quantum phenomena). The latter is thought to be at the origin of awareness in this universe.

        In your description of the Harmony set you described that the Schrodinger's Equation could be expresses in terms of a Riemann sum, I do not actually understand how this can be?

        IF I consider the above to be true then how would the Klein - Gordon equation be then represented as per your description of the Harmony set?

        Overall I found your essay very captivating and wish you the best!

        Salvish

          Hello Antony

          I think the answer is yes, this would be akin to the simplices you mention. In CDT the four simplices are 'glued' together, but this glueing is automatic in related forms of the harmony set, in certain interpretations.

          I know this is a very abstract derivation, so appreciate your patience.

          Stephen

          Hello Salvish

          Thanks for your query. It is a challenge to express the Schrodinger equation as a Riemann sum. However, the Feynman Path Integral is equivalent. In CDT, Ambjorn, Jurkiewicz and Loll replaced the integral sign with a summation symbol. They thought that they should be able to make the system work for arbitrarily small values (hence an integral) but with no luck so far. The nature of the Harmony set is such that it would not allow an integral form. Instead it introduces what I call block numbers, which accomplish the same thing as an integral, but have inherent uncertainty. I think this eliminates the need for introducing Heisenberg uncertainty, because the uncertainty is already there. Also this prevents the problem of infinities arising. It's a bit involved, but I am open to dialogue because working with the set in higher dimensions is both abstract in the extreme, and very hard.

          Hi Ralph

          Kant, I meant. A thing as it is in itself. I think the imports ant thing here, with Kant, is that his negatives become positives for an endpoint rationalist because, holding a model that it's well fined means that all equivalent models are valid, which changes t the base of the anthropic principle, and potentially solves the mind body problem.

          All this, and I'm still rated at less than three. Oh well. I'm sure you'll love my book The Armchair Universe when it comes out.

          Selfish!

          The Klein-Gordon equation! You think I'm Einstein or something! Anyway, the nature of construction of the Harmony set is quite different to the descriptive formulas used at present, so we interrogate the structure in various dimensions. When I lift the structure into 3-space, the negative pointing vectors (loosely speaking) of the 1-space set have characteristics that map to the imaginary number! So, at least there is some stricture compatible with the Schrodinger equation. To deal with this relativistically first requires one to understand the real nature of local time (recall that I explained the foundation of global time). There is a very great amount that needs to be thought through with the Harmony set and it forms in different equivalent mappings. The best way to understand it is to build the system yourself and start looking for patterns. Convergence toward the number e will jump right out, as will logarithms.

          You will probably notice that the structure forms a non-smooth continuum.

          Mr. Anastasi,

          You wrote somewhat confusingly in the abstract: "It is argued that under the principle, all possible universes are degenerate to a minimally simple entity as a unique origin of the universe." I did not understand any of your essay.

          As I have gone to great pains to politely point out and to clearly write in my essay BITTERS, one real unique Universe is eternally occurring, once.

            Dear Stephen,

            Thank you for presenting your nice essay. I saw the abstract and will post my comments soon. So you can produce matter from your thinking or from information description of that matter. . . . ?

            I am requesting you to go through my essay also. And I take this opportunity to say, to come to reality and base your arguments on experimental results.

            I failed mainly because I worked against the main stream. The main stream community people want magic from science instead of realty especially in the subject of cosmology. We all know well that cosmology is a subject where speculations rule.

            Hope to get your comments even directly to my mail ID also. . . .

            Best

            =snp

            snp.gupta@gmail.com

            http://vaksdynamicuniversemodel.blogspot.com/

            Pdf download:

            http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/essay-download/1607/__details/Gupta_Vak_FQXi_TABLE_REF_Fi.pdf

            Part of abstract:

            - -Material objects are more fundamental- - is being proposed in this paper; It is well known that there is no mental experiment, which produced material. . . Similarly creation of matter from empty space as required in Steady State theory or in Bigbang is another such problem in the Cosmological counterpart. . . . In this paper we will see about CMB, how it is generated from stars and Galaxies around us. And here we show that NO Microwave background radiation was detected till now after excluding radiation from Stars and Galaxies. . . .

            Some complements from FQXi community. . . . .

            A

            Anton Lorenz Vrba wrote on May. 4, 2013 @ 13:43 GMT

            ....... I do love your last two sentences - that is why I am coming back.

            Author Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta replied on May. 6, 2013 @ 09:24 GMT

            . . . . We should use our minds to down to earth realistic thinking. There is no point in wasting our brains in total imagination which are never realities. It is something like showing, mixing of cartoon characters with normal people in movies or people entering into Game-space in virtual reality games or Firing antimatter into a black hole!!!. It is sheer a madness of such concepts going on in many fields like science, mathematics, computer IT etc. . . .

            B.

            Francis V wrote on May. 11, 2013 @ 02:05 GMT

            Well-presented argument about the absence of any explosion for a relic frequency to occur and the detail on collection of temperature data......

            C

            Robert Bennett wrote on May. 14, 2013 @ 18:26 GMT

            "Material objects are more fundamental"..... in other words "IT from Bit" is true.

            Author Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta replied on May. 14, 2013 @ 22:53 GMT

            1. It is well known that there is no mental experiment, which produced material.

            2. John Wheeler did not produce material from information.

            3. Information describes material properties. But a mere description of material properties does not produce material.

            4. There are Gods, Wizards, and Magicians, allegedly produced material from nowhere. But will that be a scientific experiment?

            D

            Hoang cao Hai wrote on Jun. 16, 2013 @ 16:22 GMT

            It from bit - where are bit come from?

            Author Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta replied on Jun. 17, 2013 @ 06:10 GMT

            ....And your question is like asking, -- which is first? Egg or Hen?-- in other words Matter is first or Information is first? Is that so? In reality there is no way that Matter comes from information.

            Matter is another form of Energy. Matter cannot be created from nothing. Any type of vacuum cannot produce matter. Matter is another form of energy. Energy is having many forms: Mechanical, Electrical, Heat, Magnetic and so on..

            E

            Antony Ryan wrote on Jun. 23, 2013 @ 22:08 GMT

            .....Either way your abstract argument based empirical evidence is strong given that "a mere description of material properties does not produce material". While of course materials do give information.

            I think you deserve a place in the final based on this alone. Concise - simple - but undeniable.

            ===============

            Please try Dynamic Universe Model with some numerical values, give initial values of velocities, take gravitation into consideration( because you can not experiment in ISOLATION). complete your numerical experiment.

            later try changing values of masses and initial values of velocities....

            Calculate with different setups and compare your results, if you have done a physical experiment.

            I sincerely feel it is better to do experiment physically, or numerically instead of breaking your head on just logic. This way you will solve your problem faster.....

            Best

            =snp

              Dear Stephen,

              No I am not selfish, I asked you specifically about the Klein - Gordon equation because the latter is the equation of motion of a relativistic particle from which pops out the relation of dispersion (energy of the latter) as a solution of the equation using the derivatives of the plane - wave equations. Your explanation about not clear but now its fine, I just interested to see how your theory would apply in this case as I was not able to picture it and was not sure whether I was doing it the right way, so I asked.

              Thanks for your interesting reply!

              Best

              Salvish

              Hi Stephen,

              Your essay contains good ingredients for dialectic.

              As a dialectical possibility, i.e. can you rule out that the geometric point is not an extended object using Descartes' Method of Doubt?

              I say this seeing you mention Leibniz and monads, which I discussed also in a different context.

              We can engage in more dialectic...

              All the best,

              Akinbo

                Hello Akinbo

                I will read your essay when I have a moment, to see the context of your question. I hope it deals with foundations, which I find is sadly missing from most essays, even those (especially those) that scored well. Everyone seems to stay in safe, but impossible to properly argue concepts derived from empiricism.

                To your question. Unfortunately these seemingly well formed questions require complex answers. Apologies for that, but it can't be helped - our empiricist perceptions, for example the idea of a point, are so primitive compared to the abstractions of rationalism. As I discuss in my nearly complete book, The Armchair Universe (working title) Descartes Method of Doubt rules out all items about which one may doubt. This means that the idea or nature of geometric points can neither be confirmed NOR DENIED until we have reason to believe such exists as a matter of certainty, meaning indubitable. So the geometric point initially sits within the possible ontology, meaning the dialectical world of possible omnets.

                Now we are in a position to begin to consider the geometric point, and the first bother is that space and time is dubious to the endpoint skeptic (which also follows from Kant's arguments, at least at a foundational level) hence so are things such as geometric points! And certainly Euclidean n-space is dubious. To see this, consider the attached PDF, which shows that the idea of a smooth mathematical continuum is suspect (in that it contains infinities of infinite classes of inconsistencies).

                I would point out that a geometric point lacks extension (within contemporary mathematics) as a matter of definition, so if you need extension, you need a new name and reason to believe in such a thing, and to reinvent mathematics, beginning with the GPE (which was my choice, but not shown in the essay). If you have done this, I will see something about it in you essay. My guess is you are asking whether the minimally simple omnet has or does not have extension. It cannot, within the Harmony set.

                Lastly, Leibniz's monads were used just to help with the abstraction, and because I had only nine pages to explain universal origins and the nature of information.

                Anyway, thanks for the question. If I haven't answered your question, let me know, and sorry for the length.

                Best wishes

                StephenAttachment #1: A_problem_for_geometry.pdf