Georgina Woodward
“[A]ncient wisdom” is not useful if you want to send a spacecraft to Mars. We now have physics because “ancient wisdom” didn’t work as a way of explaining the world. Physicists use mathematical and other symbols to represent relationships that have been found to exist in the world.

This general way of representing the fundamental-level world is correct because it works: we can now send spacecraft to Mars, and do all sorts of other amazing things because we are using our knowledge of how the world works at a fundamental level. This knowledge can only be represented via the use of mathematical and other special symbols.

However, these symbols that we have invented are not the actual reality. These mathematical and other symbols merely very usefully represent very basic aspects of reality. Obviously, we can never quite know the actual reality that underlies the symbols. But we need to use symbols to represent the world to ourselves and others: there is no other way. There is the actual world, and there are symbols that we use to represent the world.

      Re. Extrapolation from limited, relative input does not produce an exact reproduction of the original, Taking an evolutionary view point, a higher fidelity sensory system has to confer a selection advantage to the possessor, in order for the genetic code to incrrease in the population. Otherwise it is non useful cost and so a disadvantage..

        Georgina Woodward
        A description of what is meant by ‘Sensory processing,’ is given here , Sensory processing, Massachusetts general hospital, webpage retrieved Dec. 2023 via https://www.massgeneral.org/children/autism/lurie-center/sensory-processing
        The following analysis involves breaking apart the supposed production and processing of received information, can be used in order to construct a model of the material reality human’s exist within, and further realities generated through sensory input processing; Considering what sort of processes are involved in generating personal generated quasi reality.
        Basement level, Object reality;
        This is where production of potential sensory data i.e. potential stimuli occurs. It is non relative as this reality is observer independent. Home of whole truth, as in Object material reality, alluding to the famous tale of the blind men and the elephant.[ 7].
        This, basement level reality, (Object reality), is where such a whole, material elephant source would exist. Source of all relative viewpoints based on existing material truth. ‘Separation‘ of noumeneal (A term especially associated with Kant, denoting things as they are in themselves, as opposed to things as they are for us, knowable by the senses (phenomena) Oxford Reference.com), material object reality from phenomenal, generated realities;
        Emergent, (produced by observer), Image realities, include such ideas as ; basic Image reality, perceptions, Quasi realities, both involving further processing.
        Level 1
        Which signals are received depends upon location and attention of the observer. Transaction of image formed on retina, by received input photons, into electrical signals that are transmitted via nerves to the CNS. Filtering of inputs due to intensity and wavelength. Only a portion of the spectrum of ‘light’ can be absorbed by the photoreceptors have individual sensitivity to intensity. The images Image formed in visual cortex result from received electrical impulses.
        Level 1
        Ability of an organism or device to use the visual product for navigation may result, Rudimentary awareness, such as occurs with blind sight -it’s production can involve automatic unconscious working of a device or sub conscious processes within living organisms. Generation of measurement products from input sensory stimuli. Image formed in visual cortex from received electrical impulses. Analysis of image Generated product of sensory receipt and processing. Finding lines and edges in images for example, pattern recognition. Generation of attributes such as colour allowing discrimination; qualia. Association of learning and memory and shown context [allowing later identification, attribution of meaning, in context understanding including names, emotions, names and associations of generated attributes such as colour. ]
        Ability of an organism or device to use the visual product for navigation may result, Meaning by that rudimentary awareness, such as occurs with blind sight . It is likely that rudimentary visual production can involve automatic unconscious working of a device and sub conscious processes within living organisms. Generation of measurement products from input sensory stimuli. Image formed in visual cortex from received electrical impulses. Analysis of image Generated product of sensory receipt and processing. Finding lines and edges in images for example, pattern recognition. Generation of attributes such as colour allowing discrimination; qualia. Association of learning and memory and shown context [allowing later identification, attribution of meaning, in context understanding including names, emotions, names and associations of generated attributes such as colour.]
        ]evel 2 Perception
        (of an external reality or environment) An aspect of wider consciousness. *Continuation of processing from level 1. association of learning and memory and shown context allowing identification, attribution of meaning, in context understanding including names, emotions, names and associations of generated attributes such as colour . *Consciousness can be regarded as how it feels to be an individual, monitoring itself. Awareness of; What, who, where in relation to external local environment, awareness of functioning and regulation of body and mind and self talk. Consciousness includes; awareness of the self both as a whole organism and ‘disembodied’ thinking mind, Self talk, awareness of the state of the body (generated from information received from it -experienced as feelings.) Includes awareness, due to processing of internally produced information sent to the Central Nervous System, of; breathing, air hunger, change of heart rate, of orientation of body within environment, and parts in relation to each other, joint tension and balance, gastro -intestinal issues, nausea, pain, nutrition hunger, thirst, wakefulness, sexual arousal, (Awareness of emotional state, (Emotions, the feelings experienced due to information received from the body as a result of the effect of hormones on it)
        Numeric Level 2
        Result of processing of input numbers or quantified results. Application of required mathematical procedures for purpose. Relations among existent particles, objects, parts or materials or that were phenomenal at measurement will be shown as semblance in the processed input. Patterns/ consistencies among the processed can lead to mathematical formulation. Mathematics can be applied to achieve a certain purpose. Perception generated will depend on the mathematical model used (how well it models the relations that existed at measurement) as well as input from Object reality (extracted from absolute truth) or Numerical level 1. (extracted from limited, relative truth)
        Level 3 Synthesis
        Making personal quasi reality, ‘how the world is ‘as I see it’/ What’s happening and prediction based on that, from own perspective. Models of reality and current narratives may come from; friends and acquaintances, family teaching, school teaching and further and higher education, own personal experience/ patterns of perception, traditional media, social media, learned religions sources, learned political ideology, other secular models or narratives such as by reading books. Synthesis of perception into current model of reality and narrative descriptions used. (Not actual truth, because of limitation of input and what sub set of input is sent for multiple levels of processing, as well as limitations and fidelity of current model of reality and narratives to partial Object reality. Misleading or false models or narratives used for synthesis of perception will affect the personal quasi reality formed making it have even less likeness to Basement Level Object reality. Predictions formed are correspondingly likely to be inaccurate.
        Perceptions are incorporated into a personal world view quasi reality or there is cognitive dissonance, which may lead to change of the quasi reality to fit the new perception Level 3 Delusions and fantasy Disruption of synthesis due to malfunction because of illness, or structural damage or. Alcohol, or drugs. Eg, delirium, hallucination, psychosis, drunkenness. Fantasy; imagination-synthesis, using self generated input, rather than input from existing external environment. Creation of alternative realities such as fantasy happenings and worlds . May be used as plot for books, films, games. May be useful in re-imagining manufactured quasi reality obtained from synthesis of perceptions based on objective reality derived inputs.

            Georgina Woodward
            The fundamental-level world cannot be compared to blind men and elephants. Blind men and elephants are high-level beings. Fundamental aspects of the world can’t be understood in terms of the properties of high-level advanced beings. The fundamental-level aspects of the world are represented via the use of mathematical and other such symbols.

                Lorraine Ford
                There is no reason why nounenal reality,thsat is existent things, can not be organised into structures, sytems, even orgaisms. Yes ,we can consider the scale of atomic and sub atomic particles. But need not deny that there is organisation into matter that can be regarded at a bigger scale. A level of reality need not be confined to a singler scale. A part of noumenal reality; The data pool, the potential sesory data in the environment includes 'carried' photons (pre-light. in this framewoork), which are a particular scale of existing thing, considered individually.

                    Georgina Woodward
                    We need not assume that reductionism is necessarily the only and correct means to tease apart the different levels of reality. Though within each level reductioism can be used to assertain details .

                        Georgina Woodward
                        Your view, that people are blind and stupid, and that they are not capable of correctly seeing or knowing the reality that they encounter, seems to tie in nicely with your previously expressed climate change views that people are not capable of correctly seeing or knowing what is happening with the climate, and your previously expressed views that climate change could in fact be great for the planet.

                          Nowhere have I said that people, in general, are blind and stupid. I do not discount that may be your own opinion, as you are steering the discussion towards cflimate change again.
                          Consider quantum mechanics. Neither observer, nor apparatus including existing subject is emergent from the result. Though the notions about the result are definitly formed at observation not prior to it. Re, Einsteins question to Pais; the observation product moon (phenominal) is not a reality pror to observaton. The material Moon object (Noumenal) is and continues to be existing whether the observer looks or does not, it is observation independent, That is a difference between foundational material reality and emergent realities that quantum physics does not consider . QM is all about the emergent , from information , other than the material , foundational level reality.

                            Georgina Woodward
                            Your model is of a world where people, and other living things, are inherently, from the ground up, incapable of correctly seeing or knowing the reality that they encounter. Fact: this ties in with your climate change views.

                              Georgina Woodward
                              Your model, your evaluation of the nature of reality, is clearly not correct: as I previously mentioned, we can now send spacecraft to Mars, and do all sorts of other amazing things because we are using our knowledge of how the world works at a fundamental level. Contrary to your model of the world, people ARE able to correctly see and know and represent reality.

                                  Lorraine Ford
                                  I am providng a vocabulary to enable differentiation betweem things and emergent products that are different in type but called by the same word 'realiy'. In using this terminology we avoid cofusion between what is absolute,observer independent material existence and what is emergent from information processing, relative and limited , Thought based on learning is not observer independent existence no matter how much we agree or disagree with the though i.e. .A thought is a though whether valid, in our opinion, or not.

                                      Georgina Woodward
                                      Furthermore,

                                      1. We should not be surprised that the quasi reality produced by synthesis, usually assumed to be reality, is consistent with the model and narratives used in its production.
                                      2. The formative models and narratives are foundational to the believed quasi reality but not the Basement level foundational Object reality.
                                      3. Quasi reality is individually generated, using the individuals experience and learning including models and narratives.
                                      4. Similarity of personal quasi realities relies upon similarity of experiences and learning, as well as similarity of models and narratives.
                                      5. Similarity of experience can derive from living within a group exposed to the prevail
                                      6. Models and narratives can be scientific dogma, be religious, be other secular models including pseudo science and popular conjecture. A cohesive social group is likely to have shared models and narratives whether believed to be true or not by individuals.
                                      7. AI and Social media algorithms endanger social cohesion; by taking up a lot of attention that might be expended otherwise in shared social and cultural pursuits, Lessening their influence, and over individualizing experience. Giving quasi realities that are less similar to each other because of deprivation of shared experience and shared models and narratives. Making it less likely the individuals will agree, as they are not starting from ‘common ground’.
                                      8. Different cultural groups will also have different quasi realities (‘how the world is’, as I see it). Knowledge about the models, narratives, and experiences used in synthesis of their world view can give insight into attitude and behaviour
                                      9. We can not assume all ‘not mentally ill’ people by virtue of being people, or because there is a belief in one true reality, will have similar quasi realities/world view. This is a problem for globalization. Local conditions and cultures vary and so does quasi reality. ‘One size does not fit all’ though we might wish it was not so.
                                      10. This model may be helpful in addressing; ideological differences or differing moral stances, religious differences, differing scientific views, differing background both social and environmental, different education, in order to enable constructive conversation between the parties, and form suitable responses to fit the circumstances.

                                          Georgina Woodward
                                          Your model of the world is wrong. We can now send spacecraft to Mars and do all sorts of other amazing things using our knowledge of how the world works at a fundamental level. Contrary to your model of the world, people ARE able to correctly see and know and represent the world: this is why we can have a thing called “science”.

                                          Your model of the world is wrong. Contrary to your model of the world, living things, even very low-level living things, survive because they can correctly perceive and analyse the current situation in their surrounding world, and thereby find food and avoid danger.

                                          So, contrary to what you say, the foundations of knowledge are secure. We do in fact know/ perceive/ experience the actual world. Furthermore, the brain can correctly analyse, interpret and collate the low-level knowledge, about the current situation in the surrounding world, acquired via the eyes, ears and nose etc.

                                          It is only in the very high-level analysis, interpretation and collation of this knowledge by the brain, especially the high-level analysis, interpretation and collation of knowledge about high-level analysers-interpreters-collators of knowledge (i.e. knowledge about high-level beings, including human beings, including oneself), that misdiagnoses can occur.

                                          Your model of the world is wrong because it flatly denies that the science that sends spacecraft to Mars is possible.

                                              Lorraine Ford
                                              i'm trying to make less ambiguous ,what we mean when we use the word 'reality. That involves thinking about relative emerging viewpoints from processing of aquired information in cotrast to the absolute ,observation independent material,Object reality. I have not written about rocket science used to get to Mars.

                                                  Georgina Woodward
                                                  Vision woks by processing detectable fequencies and intenensitiesof so called electromagnetic radiation ( due to specificities of individual photoreceptors) ,into a semblance of thr external source but can not be identical with the sousce. Emergent, relative thought can not be identical to existing absolute material reality.They are categorically different. Also note the limitation of information actallty processed into awareness, perception and subjective, quasi reality compared to the totality of information released by the source.
                                                  A reference frame is not a slice of the space-time continuum,giving the observer's present It is actually a sample of unitemporal (one time) space containing potenttial sensory data of dfferent temporal origins.
                                                  Natural selection works by selction of traits actually aid survival so that reproduction is possible. Traits decreasing survival are selected againt and do not increase in the population.
                                                  Sensory processig is an energetic cost that has to be compensated by survival advatage. Higher fidelity of sesory perceptio, does not necessarly confir advantage from an evolutionary perspective.

                                                      Georgina Woodward
                                                      It is not a matter of defining words like “reality” or detailing the physics or detailing the mechanisms. It is a matter of looking at the actual world:

                                                      Contrary to your blind man and elephant model, the survival of life, from the most primitive life onwards, depends on their being able to correctly perceive and analyse and respond to the current situation in their immediate surroundings.

                                                      But in order for the most primitive life to have correct perception, this correct perception can only develop and be built out of low-level matter like particles, atoms and molecules also “correctly perceiving” aspects of the other low-level matter they interact with.

                                                      This necessary-for survival knowledge must be built from the ground up, on rock-solid real foundations. Necessary-for survival knowledge can’t be built on imaginary unreal foundations.

                                                          Lorraine Ford
                                                          What do you mean by 'correctly percive? Are you talking about fidelity of sensory perception? A creature without eyes sees nohing. A creature with only simple eyes sees darkness ansd light. Which of those organisms correctly percieves and analyses the enviroment in comparison to a sighted organism with complex eyes?