Georgina Woodward
Your elephant analogy etc. is nothing like the actual mechanisms that are happening in reality: it is highly misleading to think of the world in that way. And you have introduced your special terms for things that don’t even exist e.g. “Basic observation product” and “subjective quasi reality”. It is highly unproductive and misleading to think about the world in that disorganised, unreal way.

And there is no need to get hung up about the word “reality”: you and I and everything else: we are it.

The supposed exceptions that you keep on digging up, about crisp packets and roosters and light bulbs, only go to confirm what I have been saying:

The identification of certain things in their surrounding environment is necessary in order for living creatures to be able to appropriately respond to current circumstances, and thereby hopefully survive. But the assignment of symbolic names to things that have been identified (or the animal equivalent of doing this) is almost always done only by human beings, and naming is often the sort of thing that is taught by parents, or taught in schools. There is no need to become excessively preoccupied about the naming of things, because symbolic names are things that are taught/ learned.

And there is no such thing as an interaction (e.g. in the eyes) where on one side of the interaction there are things that you have called “stimuli” (photons) coming from the surrounding environment, and somewhere on the other side of the interaction or interactions, meaning miraculously emerges. There is necessarily always the same sort of meaning on both sides of the equation, in all interactions, though the amount of meaning on each side of the equation might be debated. Not so much meaning for a photon, but a lot of meaning for a high-level being like a rooster.

      Lorraine Ford
      photos are the sensory stimuli used in vision. They are input to the eyes. Specialized organs of vision. According to the sensitivities of individual photireceptors in the individual eye, to frequencey and intensity, .adequate input is conversted to electric impulse semt to the brain ( or used to silence SPECIFIC neurons that by default send signals) I learned.

      For the adjective ,,not noun, 'reality' to apply something must either have been ( former reality) or be existing, or be the emergent product of a physical process, such as vision or the artificial equivalent that has a material source in the external environment.

          Georgina Woodward
          The new vocabulary enables easy discussion of the emergent sensory process outcome, The examples I have given show that vision can occur without perception and further analysis,.

            Georgina Woodward
            I can add to that, as well as frequency ,individual photons reaching the retina also have a position relative to other photons. That still falls short of meaning .Asingle photon alone j,ust is what it is, without further mesaning. Meanning is given to the image formed by the enemble of photons recieved together or in close proximity. By finding lines and edges in the pattern ,for example. There is association of shape with leaning of names forsimilar or same things.

                Georgina Woodward
                The whole world necessarily speaks the same low-level natural language, because on both sides of low-level interactions, the meaning is understood, i.e. the available actually-currently-existing low-level information is perceived by the world: otherwise, these interactions couldn’t take place.

                However, a greater amount of meaning, a greater amount of information, depends on building a network of logical connections which analyse and organise the natural-language low-level information. This is as opposed to the lawful, “mathematical” connections between the natural-language low-level information, which can’t increase the amount of information.

                This higher-level information/ greater amount of information is necessary for the survival of living things, because a vast quantity of unanalysed low-level information coming from photons is no use to organisms.

                It is necessary that living organisms can identify things, e.g. an apple, against a background of other things. But this requires that the incoming low-level information, coming from interactions in the eyes, be analysed and organised by the organism. As I said, there are no labels on photons, no apple-photons and non-apple-photons: without analysis and organisation of the information, objects can’t be identified.

                The vision of living things is nothing like a camera, or a photo.

                    Lorraine Ford
                    A camera can act as an observerjust as asimple organismcan. The observation product is a photo wheras the observation peroduct of the organism is present visual experience, not necessarilconscious perception and surther thoughabout the object aacording to prior experiences and learned or developeed subjective world view. Both camera and organismonly saample a fraction of the totall potential sensory data released tothe environmwent.Which photons willdepend on where the observer is located giving their unique point of view. Both camera and eye has photosenstie components photoereceptor sor photo-cells that respond preferentially to some frequency or frequency bands and a range but not all intensities. So a product we recognise with the higher level functionsof human vision is produced tlowerlevel vision and working off camera. We are able tosay the input in bothcassesis partially processed. Many photons are not processed into the final image product. Psychological factors,such as tiredness , drunkenness can effect the organism,effecting image quality. Maldfuction of components can effect the working of the camera,effectingi mage quality.

                      Lorraine Ford
                      The viual system and camera are both what I have been calling reality interfaces,. Both function at the boundary between reality types The type of reality is converted from foundational and material, to emergent, information derived. Photon's are released to the environment by materials and objects . This happens whether seen or not , it is observartion independent , Both the photons and Source object are Object reality, they are existing things. The input photons stimulate the photopreceptors or photocells in a digirtal camera ,producing electriic current in response. Processing of the generated currents by the brain or camera processors .A film camera uses chemical change on expoure to the photons and further chemical processing to produce the product. The camera and organic visual systems pmaterial source of the photons. The semblance is not equal to or the same as the source , though thr likeness may be called by the saamwe name. It is categorically different.

                          Georgina Woodward
                          Unlike your model of how reality works, containing bizarre special terms that you have invented, the vision of living organisms is nothing like a camera or a photo. A camera does not identify objects, but the essential aspect of the vision/ consciousness of living organisms is that it is made up of categories and objects.

                          For their own survival, living organisms need to identify special objects in their current, moving, surrounding environment, so that the organism can take any appropriate action in response to this information.

                          E.g. a food item, or a predator, or a safe hiding place, needs to be identified against a background of other things. This requires that the incoming low-level information, coming from interactions involving photons in the eyes, as well as interactions in the other senses, must be analysed and organised by the organism.

                          Even very low-level organisms couldn’t survive if they were not able to, in their own small way, analyse and organise and identify the low-level information continually arriving from the surrounding environment. This analysis, organisation and identification requires the use of logic.

                          Vast quantities of unanalysed, unorganised, unidentified, low-level information coming from interactions with the current surrounding environment, is no use to organisms.

                          This necessary analysis, organisation and identification of objects can’t be represented by the equations that physicists use to represent laws of nature. The necessary analysis, organisation and identification of objects can only be represented via the use of logical connective symbols.

                              Lorraine Ford
                              I did not say that a camera is like an organism's visual system because it self identifies objects. Though nowadays AI and camera working together could performsuch a feat. I specified the ways in which a camera is similar but not the same as an organism's visual system. most importsantly the transformation from objective ,material realityt to emrergent, relative, partial semblance of it's surface.

                                  Georgina Woodward
                                  I do not think it is helpful to calll - what we think -due o analysis of our sensory perception,'realiiy, and also call observation independent,existing things 'reality'. They are categoricallty different and need to be descibed as such. In order to avoid ambiguity and confusion

                                    It is not posdsible to discuss iand deconstruct deas, without the language to do so. if all barriers are called walls how do we differentiate a fence from a brick or stone structure

                                    Correcting the spelling errors, I tried to correct earlier but ended up worse, as I can no longer edit the post;:
                                    I do not think it is helpful to call - what we think -due to analysis of our sensory perception,'realiity, and also call observation independent, existing things 'reality'. They are categoricallty different and need to be descibed as such. In order to avoid ambiguity and confusion

                                      Georgina Woodward
                                      It is not possible to discuss and deconstruct ideas, without the language to do so. if all barriers are called walls how do we differentiate a fence from a brick or stone structure

                                          Georgina Woodward
                                          Re your “nowadays AI and camera working together could performsuch a feat”:

                                          Do you or don’t you understand the difference between real-world real-life mass (or any other category of information) and the symbolic representation of real-world real-life mass (or any other category of information)?

                                          Do you or don’t you understand the difference between real-world real-life mass, and the symbols used to represent real-world real-life mass? E.g. the following line:

                                          (m = 0.511 MeV) IS TRUE

                                          consists of symbols, on paper or screen, that represent a particular real-world real-life mass. This same real-world real-life mass could also be symbolically represented using voltages, transistors and circuits in a computer. But the symbols are NOT, I repeat NOT, the actual real-world real-life mass.

                                          You continually fail to understand that what is happening in a computer merely uses voltages, transistors and circuits to symbolically represent something else: the symbols (the voltages, transistors and circuits) are NOT, I repeat NOT, the thing they are representing.

                                          Your “AI and camera working together” is NOT performing feats that actual real-life eyes are doing, though computer code can potentially be used to REPRESENT (in a general way) what actual real-life eyes are doing.

                                          Are you able to understand the distinction?

                                              Lorraine Ford
                                              I was just saying that AI is able to give the identity of 'learned' images. That means of identification could be combined with a camera producing a photographic product. i did not say the combination works exactly like eyes and vision.

                                                  Georgina Woodward
                                                  You went on and on and on and on about a rooster.

                                                  But I’m guessing that you never noticed the similarity between
                                                  the rooster who mistook an oil bottle for a living thing,

                                                  and
                                                  the masses of people who mistake a box of wires and circuits for something that is conscious? 😊

                                                      (m = 0.511 MeV) IS TRUE Lorraine Ford
                                                      i understabd this a stymbolic representation and not an actual mass. One might say,like an autobiography is not a person There is however some element of truth in it.The weiting does not show the whole truth, that makes the person.i think we lost some important distinction by getting rid of the standard kilogram. Mass is related to existence as fermion matter, and hence atomic mass. The effect it has on the environment is observation independent. The other side of the equation is a measurement product. A result obtained because of the unnatural relationship betreen measured and measuring apparatus/ To say that the REPRESENTATION OF emergent vaue and the REPRESENTATION OF intrinsic can be equated and further qualified by IS TRUE is not entirely truthful.