Paul,

You do put an awesome amount of effort into these replies and I certainly wish I had enough time to reply in kind. I do edit much of what I would say, for time considerations.

Yes, by about a thousand years ago, the cloistered priesthood had determined the trinity stood for the spirit, the soul and the body, but the fact remains that Jesus was attempting to push the reset button on the Jewish God and this was fairly firmly acknowledged at the time. That is why it is called "God the Father and God the Son," not God the Spirit and God the Soul.

Meanwhile God the Holy Ghost did grew out of a neutering of the female deity and came to stand for hope in the future and the Second Coming/rebirth. As I said, this has all been put through two thousand years of interpretation. As we all well know, when the academics get hold of any idea, it little resembles what was originally meant.

Personally I have no problem with top down authority. In fact, I worked for my parents, on their farm, until my mid twenties and have mostly worked for various family members since. This is because that makes them point person in an economic world I find very disturbing and am quite willing to accept my role as more of a manager and tactical point person. In fact, I feel it gives me far more emotional freedom then the stresses of being the boss would allow.

This is because that top down role is still relative to a larger context. As the process of distinction and judgement, intelligence is an essentially navigation function. So, from my perspective, making it some form of theological absolute is contradictory and simply an example of anthropomorphizing God. Good and bad are the biological binary code of attraction to the beneficial and repulsion of the detrimental. What might well be beneficial on the individual level, such as going forth and multiplying, might well be detrimental on the mass scale, as overpopulation destroying the environment.

Now I do realize making good and bad a cosmic duel between the forces of righteousness and evil provides a wonderful narrative contrast, but personally I don't need stories to appreciate morality.

As you frame it, it seems your highest ideal imposed on this preferred deity is intelligence, yet intelligence is in fact the tool. Even in the story of Adam, Eve, the snake and the apple, it was understand that knowledge can be a double edged sword.

Light can be a destructive force, but than so can life itself, as we have all been discussing in this contest. I appreciate the light, but I do know it can burn. My judgement is stay in the middle ground between too much and too little and not chase it like some moth.

Men can be led with hope, or herded with fear. We need to be able to put both in the larger context and not have the priests herd us around like children.

Regards,

John

Hi John,

Your essay seemed a bit fragmented. Perhaps it would have benefited from a more specific focus. Adding headings for sections is a method that a lot of people have used for breaking their essays into logical parts.

That said, you do raise some interesting points about the structure of government and the banking system. These are in need of some reform. I think there is some danger of things crashing down and people resorting to using "walls and guns". Unfortunately, with the invention of military robotics power can be incredibly concentrated, so this collapse of society might even be in the interests of some powers.

I'm hopeful that there are alternatives that might be adopted before things get too bad. Even though it's not the topic of my essay, I'm interested in making learning and teaching a core ongoing activity everyone in society. This might possibly expand to reform political and economic practices.

Cheers,

Toby

    Thanks Toby.

    It is a rather incredibly broad topic, which is why I made the observation that the essay is the abstract. I wanted to coalesce both a basic description of reality and our conscious awareness projected within it, onto a point of focus on the fact that our economic medium of exchange is being used as a massive wealth extraction process by an increasingly parasitic and corrupt banking sector, motivated by our collective desire for notational wealth and this is magnifying our environmental destruction, as well as keeping it short enough for those trying to digest many of these entries. Having been in these contests before, my goal wasn't so much to win as to try to stir up some debate on the topic, for which I've had some minor successes.

    Regards,

    John

    Hi John,

    I just skimmed, fairly thoroughly, your essay (I want to rad certain essay but am running short of time). I'm sorry it took me so long. I really liked it. First I liked the fact that your eschewed an abstract -- this fits in with the general tone of your essay. Also interesting bio.

    Your essay focuses most one the current monetary/financial system and its inherent inequities. I like the analog to a circulatory system and the idea that we are heading for a coronary. My only question is there anything really to be done about the financial system? It seems that humans have made strides in science, medicine, even political systems (you talk about individually run governments, monarchies, giving way to institutional governments which are public trusts). However, (and I may be wrong) even though the forms of the economic institutions have changed over human history they (always?) tend to end with an insane concentration of wealth in a few hands, abuse of this wealth and then some revolution/upheaval. OK this is grossly simplified but still the question is "Has there been any really progress change in economic systems over the course of human history? By the way this is an honest and not a rhetorical questions since history of economics is very far from my field.

    One of the most persistent myths of at least the US economy is the trickle down idea. This "theory" is used to justify the concentration of large amounts of wealth into a few hands. In this regard you may find of interest (or may have already seen) the *banned* TED talk. From the website the description reads:

    "Around a year ago TED banned Nick Hanauer's talk named 'Rich People Don't Create Jobs'. The talk was deemed too 'political' and was never put online. However, after word got out, a large number of people signed a petition and demanded the rights to view it. TED reluctantly published Nick's talk which you are able to view right here:"

    You can find this talk now easily by doing a Google search. In it Hanauer compares trickle down ideas to the old Ptolemaic system of the Universe -- simply wrong.

    You make the statement on page 1. "First and foremost, this situation has to be addressed in a way that can be intellectually comprehended by vast numbers of normally intelligent people," and you mention that lying out such a basic description may irritate "professional interest". Exactly! Whenever some expert gives you some jumbled/jargony explanation whose end is to get you to part with some of your money or resources, you can bet that this is just nonsense hidden by technical sounding language. I've heard (I need to find a reliable source but the story is too good not to repeat) that Wall Street Investment Houses would hire mathematicians and physicists to come up with impenetrable (to someone without a math/physics background) mathematical formulas which they would trot out to their clients to show them that they were a serious science driven firm, when in fact the formulas were useless for anything except for separating the client from their money.

    One minor critic -- you say "because the energy is apparently conserved, but the information surely is not". In physics terms (specifically) black holes which are evaporating via Hawking radiation the question of whether information is conserved or not is hotly debates -- with a slight edge to information being conserved. I know this is not what you meant by information (at least I think it isn't) but BHs are my research area so I couldn't resist putting in a technical criticism :-).

    Anyway best of luck with this contest,

    Doug

      Doug,

      Your questions raise the problem that it really would take a book length exposition to do justice to the various questions being raised, yet much of this would have to be supporting detail to deflect the invariable criticism to any complex argument. Since you do seem far more curious of the issues, than critical of my observations about them, I'll try raising a various salient points and let you process them from your own frame.

      Consider two terms you would run into in any in depth reading of economics; Derivatives and re-hypothecation.

      If you know much about gambling, derivatives amount to a form of parimutual wagering, where one is betting against other betters, rather than the house. So effectively you can have enormous amounts of money gambled on a very minor issue of probability. For instance, millions of dollars being wagered on a horse race, where the purse might only be 5-25 thousand. The difference though, is these bets don't have to be closed after every event, but can be rolled over into another, so the losses don't have to be declared.

      Re-hypothecation basically means the same asset is being used to back multiple securities/loans/etc. Now on its surface, this might seem like outright fraud, but monetary systems have effectively worked this way for centuries, in that there is rarely enough gold/assets in the treasury to back the amount of money in circulation. In fact, prior to the world going off the gold standard, they were often required by law to only have about 25% gold to money in circulation.

      Now with low interest rates, money can be borrowed into existence generally cheaper than the stock market is growing. For instance, if you can borrow money at 2% and the stock market is growing about 5% a year and lots of people are doing this, the rising market absorbs the fresh money being created and the only ones losing are those foolish enough not to be speculating in the market, since it does eventually drive down the value of the money.

      The larger reality is that this process is being driven by the entire society valuing money more than they might more intangible assets, like environmental resources and the stability of societies in other parts of the world, because of the promise of security. It is like a wave. While we might focus on its peak, the real force driving it is hidden under the water.

      The bigger this bubble of notational value gets, the more desperately it needs tangible assets to feed off of and the more amoral it becomes in acquiring them, so the greater the effective suction being applied to the entire economy.

      The reason it requires so much complex math, is not simply to confuse those outside the process, but to maintain enough friction and balancing of obligations within the system, in order to store vastly more notational wealth than the actual economy is capable of producing. As for getting quantum theorists from MIT to do this, versus normal accountants, I do think it should be noted that physicists currently believe that math is foundational to reality and any reasonable mathematical structure must reflect some form of actual reality and so that entire universes must exist to reflect the models they formulate. Yet accountants understand the math as only an abstraction of reality and should they get too imaginative in their formulations, it could well attract legal attention and create enormous personal difficulties. So it is simply logical for the bankers to appeal to the quantum theorists for help in inflating these bubbles.

      Yes, this process has occurred throughout history, but a large part of that is because we naturally edit much of the facts about reality to what is immediately convenient and so it is much easier for most people to think of these notes as a commodity to be traded around, much as any other commodity and thus loose sight of the network of obligations giving them value and making the system function. Then the system of regulation becomes a burden to the process of creating and managing these flows of value and so is bought off and consumed by it. It is like a wave, in that it exponentially increases and then crashes. Like a game of Monopoly, when one person actually owns everything, the game is over and the paper money is re-distributed. In real life, this often involves pitchforks and torches. What goes up, comes back down.

      This is why I'm trying to emphasize that we need to step back and remember these notes are a contract, not a commodity. You no more own those pieces of paper in your pocket, then you own the section of road you happen to be driving on. It behooves those managing this system for people to think they own the money, then people are far less concerned with how integrated it becomes into every function of their lives, while not understanding the power this gives those responsible for managing the value and flow of this money to tax and otherwise control deep social functions.

      If your average Joe Sixpack knew those bills with the picture of a dead president were a form of public utility, that he was only being allowed use of, he and the rest of society would naturally be far more careful how much they would extract value from social relations and the environment, in order to acquire these notes. There are many functions in life, from elder and child care, to local community projects and primary education, which throughout history were normal social effects and didn't require established currencies to occur. In this way, social relations and the environment are stores of value to be preserved and built on, not just resources to be mined, because they arise from organic social contracts that we are born into.

      In the first part of the essay, I did brush over some equally controversial topics. Obviously the one about religion and how spirituality is more logically a bottom up impulse of a primal sense of self, rather than a top down ideal. This would well be a book length topic. For instance, good and bad are the biological binary code of attraction to the beneficial and repulsion of the detrimental, not the rather useful narrative contrast of the cosmic forces of righteousness and evil our stories lead us to believe. Going forth and multiplying is good on the individual level, but bad on the planetary level. Just as what is good for the fox, is bad for the chicken and there is no clear line where the chicken ends and the fox begins.

      This is not to to disparage the top down executive function, as individually it is the conscious state that mediates all our subconscious impulses and collectively it manages the forces within society for the betterment of the group. Yet being able to appreciate it in this relative context and not as an absolute, would allow us to better mediate decisive factors and not have single minded desires and obsessions create more havoc than is normal. In the age of kings, we came to understand the executive function had to be an expression of the better judgement of the people and not just left to the whims of the heir of the prior decision maker. Similarly, our economic medium of money has to serve the interests of the whole society and not just the desires of those tasked with managing it.

      Another topic I get into on physics forums, is that since we experience change as a sequence of events, we think of time as the present moving from past to future and physics further distills this to measures of particular duration, to use in calculations. Yet the actual physical process is that change is creating and dissolving these events, thus it is the events going from future to past. For example, the earth does not travel/flow/exist along a dimension from yesterday to tomorrow, but rather tomorrow becomes yesterday because the earth turns. This point has had me banned from a number of physics sites, since it makes time an effect of action, rather than the dimensional basis for it. Effectively it is much more like temperature, than space. Time is to temperature, what frequency is to amplitude. It's just that we experience temperature as a cumulative effect and overlook the multitude of individual actions(velocities/amplitude) creating it, but with time we experience the individual effect of sequence and overlook the fact there is no universal clock, only the effect of a multitude of changes. In fact a faster clock only burns quicker and so falls into the past faster. Remember that, the next time you are in a hurry.

      Obviously this is another subject which would take a book to examine, but it is reflective of our necessarily episodic, sequential view of reality, which makes us focus on the concept of objects, more than the processes creating them. Thus such tangibles as notational devices seem more real than the processes giving them force.

      I could further develop these subjects, but this should give you something to consider.

      Regards,

      John

      I would also note that is is perfectly reasonable to have a monetary system based on public debt, if the rewards accrue back to the public. As it is, currently the obligations are public, while the rewards are private. This serves to siphon value out of the public and into private hands. The resulting bubble eventually bursts, to the good of no one, if the system of contracts allowing private ownership is destroyed.

      John,

      I see here a perceptive analysis and a sensible if not revolutionary framework of suggestions for improving the world. The way you bring in concepts of the nature of God or ultimate reality, is certainly not same-old futurism. Your idea of the ground of being/godhead being more an "esse" of existence that develops, rather than an infinitely structured superbeing, relates to my own argument about how our minds access and build upon the essential stuff of the world to become conscious and know they are more than just abstractions of mathematics. You have already commented on my own essay but I want to quote the portion of your essay that ties them together well:

      "So if God is in charge, she apparently doesn't want to know everything. Possibly a more reasonable theological proposition is the spiritual absolute would be the essence of awareness and beingness, from which we rise, not an ideal form from which we fell. In a sense, a spiritual energy, rather than the intellectual forms it manifests."

      The spiritual energy drives the essential overall experience of being alive, which is more than just a collection or product of various individual sensations and thoughts etc. It makes a stage, which helps form a unity out of all that and also gives us the essential drive to care about it. I also argue that this wholeness is required for us to behave in a globally controlled manner, such as when we suddenly stop our actions, then resume them later etc. I argue that a "society of mind", even an efficient one, would not be quite nimble enough to pull this off.

        Well I didn't even remember I already commented here, but that's OK - I made some new points of value.

        Thanks Neil.

        It has been an interesting contest and hopefully the conversations will continue.

        Yes, having grown up and lived on a farm my whole life, I do see the spirit as an elemental sense of awareness and rational thought as how it interacts with a complex reality, rather than arising from that complexity by chance. As such complexity is part of a cycle of expansion and consolidation. So even nimble minds only go and grow as far as circumstance allows. Then the reset button gets pushed again.

        I have to say that I have an inexhaustible supply of trolls, as every time I get a bump up, another comes along to push my score back down. Hopefully I'm actually causing some irritation and they are not just trying to push their own scores up.

        Regards,

        John

        Hi John,

        Nice essay! The good rating I was about to give got an additional point added to it because of your funny abstract and your righteous bio. All the best to you!

        Warmly,

        Aaron

          Thanks Aaron.

          It has been another very interesting contest. I have to say I originally got interested in physics as a way to understand society, so it was a good question for me. I suppose that was one of the points I tried to make in the bio.

          REgards,

          John

          Dear John,

          I can understand the editing. Although my replies can be long they would be much longer if I tried to cover in detail every possible response that I consider to all of the points that you mention. You made this reply shorter than some others, so I will try to do the same to make it easier for you to respond adequately.

          You mention that "but the fact remains that Jesus was attempting to push the reset button on the Jewish God and this was fairly firmly acknowledged at the time. That is why it is called "God the Father and God the Son," not God the Spirit and God the Soul." I was not trying to say that God used the terms God the Spirit and God the Soul in referring to himself. What I was pointing out is that God says that he made man in his image and man is composed of three parts, a spirit a soul and a body and that because man is made in the image of God these three parts are an image or likeness to the three parts of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. As an example, talking about God the Father in the scriptures it says, "God is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. This shows that the spirit in man is an image of God the Father who is a Spirit. It also shows that the only way that a man can worship (serve) God the Father is to do it in his spirit. The spirit is the part that generates the intents or purposes to act on. It is the beginning and initiating power that is required to start any purposeful action. This means that to worship God the Father a man's intents or purposes must be the same as God the Father's intents. To put it another way, to worship or serve God the Father, the man must intend to do that which God the Father intends for him to do. There is a joining of the two spirits to accomplish the same actions. There is a certain way for this joining to be accomplished and certain conditions must be met first. These are given in the scriptures. The man's soul takes the intents of the spirit and generates thoughts to carry out those intents. The thoughts are sent to the man's body and the body converts them into actions that accomplish the intents of the man's spirit. The soul is, therefore, the mediator between the man's spirit and his body. In the scriptures, God says that the Son is the only mediator between him and man. The Son, therefore, receives the Father's intents and generates the thoughts that man can understand and sends them to the man. The man then receives those thoughts from the Son and acts in accordance with them to carry out God the Father's intents. The soul in man is, therefore, an image of the Son and the man's body is the image of the Holy Ghost. An image is never as good or complete in all ways as the original source that it is an image of. This means that man cannot be equal to God, but he is formed in a way that is similar and gives us an insight into God's form. I am not concerned with the meanings that men apply to God. My concern is what God says about himself in the scriptures. I believe that God is capable of keeping his promises such as when Jesus said "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall never pass away." I, therefore, believe that God has kept the meanings in his Word intact, so that it has not been changed by men to mean different from what he originally intended it to mean and I can, therefore, trust that it is true. I do, however, understand that you probably do not believe this way because you would have to believe in God as a living being with the power and intent to do these things. If you look at the scriptures as only a work of man, it would not be reasonable from your perspective to believe that anything in it could be sure to be as it is said to be in the scriptures because man does not have the ability to make it so. To me the fact that the scriptures contain so many prophesies that have come to pass and many that are happening now in the present, etc. is another indication that they are not the work of man because man does not have the power to make them happen.

          Again, I can see why you might believe this since you don't believe that there is actually a God who could keep the academics from modifying his message to us, but since the evidence is that there is such a God that concept only applies to the false gods and not the true God. You still have not given me any real evidence that the true God does not exist. You have only given stories or fables based on the assumption that God does not exist other than in the form of fables or as man's imaginary creation. On the other hand, I have already given you some evidence that he does exist.

          I am glad that you are happy with your current situation in life. I to have found it good to give up being the boss, but to me it is to give it up to God because he can always make the right decisions and lead me in the right direction to make things work out for good.

          I cannot see how you consider that the concept that God is intelligent to the degree that he is able to create, control, and maintain the universe to cause it to yield the results that he desires to fulfill his purpose for creating it is in any way looking at God as though he is a mere man, since man is not intelligent enough to do any of these things. You are right that his intelligence is only one property of him of many that he possesses and it does help him to be able to rightly divide and make judgments as necessary to fulfill his will, but I do not consider that to be his only attribute, but it is an important one. Without it he would not have been able to have planned, designed, and determined the best way to create the universe. Of course, I can see why you would not consider it something you would consider important because you have jumped to the conclusion that god is only a collection of myths and stories and has no real abilities. You, therefore, fit your conception of the nature of god to agree with the god that you assume to exist. One problem with the conception of good or bad being what is beneficial or detrimental to the greatest number of people is that it can then be used by the majority to justify mistreating any minority group that they define. As an example, there are currently people in this world who believe that the world population should only be about 300,000,000 people. Using this logic some of these people could justify killing about 6,700,000,000 people because they might say that even though this would mean killing most of the people alive at this time, in the long term future there would be a total of more people who would live than that amount and they would say that the lives of all those future people would be better. Of course, you could bet that the ones that were not killed would be the rich and powerful people who would really be doing it because they would think they would have more as a result of it. It would not really work that way, but greed and the desire for power can easily blind people and cause them to do stupid destructive things. For man to kill is wrong because God reserves the times of a person's birth and death to his determination because he knows the best time for each of us to be born and to die.

          God created both good and evil in order to allow us to be able to have free choice. The choices that are the right ones that work for good are the good ones and the ones that end in bad results are the bad or evil ones. He tells us to make the good ones and not the bad ones, but he allows us to make the bad ones, so we can see and learn how bad they are. This is all part of our training, so we will learn that God leads us in the right direction to go in all things and we can learn to trust him to do so. There are 2 ways to get this understanding. One is to do both evil and good and get the results first hand or you can look at the results of other's actions (the stories) and learn that way. I have found that the most pleasant experience is to do the good and get those results directly and look at the results of others who do evil and learn about those results from the stories or accounts of those others.

          First, God is as he is and I only try to determine how that is by the evidence that I observe about him. I cannot impose any highest ideal on him. His highest ideal is what he makes it to be as the most important part of his being. I mention intelligence here for 2 reasons. First, it is necessary for him to possess great intelligence to have created the universe and the evidence is that he did that. Second, those who don't believe in God's existence as the one who created the universe generally try in one way or another to define away that as being an attribute of God, so they can then say that he could not have done it. You are right that intelligence is an ability that can be used as a tool that in this case God used for the purpose of creating the universe, so he can use it to make a body for himself. I believe that this is a good purpose and that he will accomplish his goal and that it will work for good for him and all who become members of his body. The problem with Adam and Eve is that they desired to have knowledge that they were not at that time prepared to properly use. That is why God commanded them to not access it at that time.

          In a lot of things the middle place or to do things in moderation can be the best course of action, but when it comes to God that is the worst place to be. Jesus says that he would have you to be either hot or cold to him, but if you are lukewarm (in the middle) he will spew (spit) you out of his mouth. He says that those who try to stay in the middle are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. He counsels such to buy of him gold tried in the fire, that they may be rich (this comes from doing right even when you have to suffer to do it), and white raiment (the righteousness of the saints), that they may be clothed, so that the shame of their nakedness does not appear, and anoint their eyes with eye-salve, that they may see (an image of going to and being anointed by Jesus (God's Word to get understanding)). Jesus says that as many as he loves he rebukes and chastens and says to, therefore, be zealous and repent from being lukewarm. He then says that he stands at the door and knocks and if any man hears his voice and opens the door he will come into him and they will sup (share their lives) with each other. He then says that to him that overcomes he will grant to sit with him in his throne even as he also overcame and is set down with his Father in his throne. Although I did not understand that I was this way to God when I was an agnostic and, therefore, in the middle between belief and unbelief, I have since then found that compared to how life can be with God in Christ it was a pretty good description of me at that time. It is evident that God desires to have this relationship with us in that he says that he stands at the door and knocks and is ready to come into the man that hears him and opens the door and desires to sup with him and when the man has overcome his problem of being in the middle he even offers to share his throne with him.

          I agree that it is best to not be herded around by men, but it is good to be one of God's sheep and be herded by him to learn from him to know what is best to do in any situation. You can't get any larger context than God. This comment is still turning out kind of big, but it is still smaller than the last one.

          Sincerely,

          Paul B.