Dear Edwin,

It's an interesting idea of yours to compare the thermodynamics of a molecular system to the dynamics of a simplified human society/system. I think the idea works. You say that if the "progressive" goal to steer humanity's future is monetary equality, and if money equates to energy, then thermodynamic modelling suggests that it will produce an unstable system/society, and most people are actually better off in the "natural"/"conservative" system. I agree with you that the natural order is difference (you say "inequality"), and that equal opportunity in a human society represents potential freedom of choice.

You also explain why we should steer the future of humanity with local control. And again I must agree with you about the necessity for strong local control of most things. I think most people don't want e.g. the poisons and pesticides in our environment and foods; the 24/7 advertising rammed down our throats etc. etc. But I also think that in any system, including nature itself, there are always openings that can be exploited or "rorted" - we are never going to devise a perfect system that thereafter requires no effort or work.

Regards,

Lorraine

    Dear Lorraine,

    Thanks for your comments. I do agree with you that the correct perspective is "difference", not "inequality". But those who wish to make political hay of differences shout "inequality". I've tried to show that this has not ended well historically, and there are "thermodynamics" reasons why this is so.

    I also believe you have identified a very serious problem of toxic influence of physics with its mistaken view of free will.

    Live wild and free,

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Dear Don,

    Thanks for reading. We were both bitten by the same muse. I think our ideas hold the most promise for a workable future for all.

    Best regards,

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Dear Cristi,

    Thanks for your appreciation. As I noted on your page, your Axiom One is built into the American Declaration of Independence. But each generation must learn history anew.

    I'm glad to see your paper receiving wide approval!

    Best regards,

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Dear Ajay,

    I enjoyed your fascinating essay, with its interesting anecdotes to support your themes. You make an excellent point about the computer revolution as "putting science in the hands of the public." I do agree with you that 'future' is about making life better at the individual level with "better" defined by the individual. Maximum freedom!

    I also liked your points about gravity being known for 200,000 years or so before Newton, beginning with babies first steps.

    I have one son who has largely avoided computers for a long time but is now hooked on both iPads and 3-D printers. I think that supports your points.

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Edwin,

    I have responded to the comments you left on my essay in my forum.

    I really liked your essay. I agree with you that freedom is what makes a society work optimally, and I found your analogy between economics and thermodynamics very interesting.

    In your section "A State of Fear", you give the results of a poll that confirms what I was saying in my essay, that people's generalized mistrust in their governments means that any succesful steering initiative will have to be based on the collective will of the people - hence the need for an educated population, especially towards issues important for the future of humanity. I really like your idea to tie welfare and unemployment benefits to an education fund... as you say, "paying people to educate themselves has to be superior to paying them to secure their vote".

    I have looked at all the essays, and read more than half of them from start to finish. Your essay is part of the short list that I hope will make it to the finals, and I have rated it accordingly. Good luck!

    Marc

      Edwin,

      Thank you for your kind comments. I'm glad to learn that we are on the same page.

      Your son's experience with the iPad and 3D printing is exactly what I am talking about. He now has the sciences (a bit constrained, I know) that are the underpinning of these two devices in his hands. As he plays with them, he will, I believe, use them as arrows in his quiver to 'fix' what he finds unsatisfactory or worth doing. I'm also sure he will find a way to 'break' the constraints and use the sciences to accomplish with these devices a few things, nobody anticipates him doing - that's the real beauty of the App World and that's the real beauty of putting sciences in the hands of the global public. Thank you for sharing your son's story.

      -- Ajay

      Hi Edwin,

      I took a look at your essay and there are several points of contact/connection with what I was advocating in my essay. For example you take a statistical mechanics approach to studying the distribution of money/resources which act as the energy for your system (this is given by the proportionality of E with $ at the top of the 2nd page). And I think this is a good analogy. Also the path integral formulation has a very close connection with thermodynamics/statistical mechanics.

      I like the idea of paying people to learn rather than the current system we have where students leave the university with crushing debt. Let me say in this regard that even from the inside of the educational system. It makes no logical sense why educational costs have gone up so much. When I first started working in the Cal State system 15 yeas ago the tuition for an undergrad for one semester was $1000 or maybe even less. Now it is $4000 per semester, and in fact students have trouble getting the classes they need (this has been a recent thing -- when I first came it was never a problem for students to get their classes *and* they paid less). Professor salaries have been fairly stagnant during this period *but* administrator salaries have not and every year there is a new administrative office with its attendant requirements for staffing, support, etc. And most of these offices do nothing good (well they do things but mostly get in peoples way).

      But anyway I like the aspect of your essay that as far as possible one should de-centralize things, and also the statistical mechanics approach.

      Best of luck in the contest,

      Doug

        Dear Edwin,

        The analogy you draw is interesting. There are some illuminating similarities between various statistical distributions in nature and the distribution of money in a developed human society. I agree with you that an equal distribution of money, or of material goods in general, is not possible and would be undesirable. This is so, whether the units to be equalized are taken to be individual persons, adult persons, households, or whatever.

        One thing that I do not understand clearly about your picture is the relationship between stability and freedom. On page 2 at the bottom where you set forth the two possible goals you appear to suggest that the appropriate goal is stability (that is, the continued existence of human society). Stability would seem to be the appropriate goal, because the other suggested goal, namely, equality, is neither possible nor desirable. One interpretation is that maximization of freedom is the way to achieve stability. But another interpretation would suggest that freedom for individuals and social stability are two different things. On that view, the goal is to achieve social stability while doing the best we can to also achieve as much freedom for individuals as possible. This interpretation is suggested earlier on page 2 with the statement, "Our 'cost function' will be individual freedom - we wish to maximize individual freedom while reaching our goal."

        Another important question is whether freedom is defined largely, or even solely, in economic terms. We can ask, "Who should be free?" We can also ask, "Free for what or free in what ways?" On your view, the first question has a clear answer: the appropriate bearers of freedom are adult human individuals who have not been legally determined to be mentally incompetent or guilty of certain crimes. But I am not so sure that the second question has so clear an answer. What I have in mind is that economic freedom might sometimes be at odds with other kinds of freedom. If people are generally free to buy, sell, trade, participate in markets, accumulate wealth, and so on, then those people who are most proficient at these activities will gain greater capacity to promote their ideas. But if those ideas are considered solely as ideas, they may not be as valuable in a "marketplace of ideas" as some other ideas presented by people who are less economically astute.

        At any rate, these are a few comments. I appreciate the opportunity to read your essay, and I appreciate the comments you made about my essay a few weeks ago.

        Laurence Hitterdale

          Hi Eugene,

          Thanks for writing. I have a question that you might be able to help me clear up:

          In your essay, you state that "If no one controls more energy than anyone else, the free energy, used for accomplishing goals, vanishes." I can see that this is true in the physics sense, but can you explain why you think it is true in the societal sense? It doesn't seem to me that equality of resources among citizens would prevent accomplishment of goals by the civilization. This is because humans, unlike idealized particles, share some goals with one another and can coordinate in order to accomplish tasks together. This seems like a huge and relevant difference between your analogy and reality.

          Have you considered using economic tools to model human society and distribution of resources? Alternatively, you could try to use your framework to make some predictions, and check them against historical records to see if they reflect reality.

          In any case, thanks for provoking some thoughts!

          Best,

          Daniel Dewey

          Crucial Phenomena

            Edwin,

            Time grows short, so I am revisited those I've read to assure I've rated them. I find that I rated yours on 5/13. Hope you enjoyed mine. I know we have had several exchanges.

            Jim

            • [deleted]

            Wonderful job Ed!

            I found your essay extremely thought provoking. Of course; I'm left with questions about the role of the middle class, which traditionally has been a source of strength and freedom for society. But you provided unique insights into the extremes of our prevailing value systems that show how we got into the current mess, and put some of our current ideological struggles into perspective.

            I am not so certain as you that government of itself breeds inefficiency, because the scaling down of government and the de-regulation of industry has not brought about the economic and social improvements that advocates of that approach have promised. But if it is understood that the way in which government's influence has been curtailed were mainly to benefit the alphas, and to further secure their entrenched positions, the outcomes do make sense.

            You leave me with many things to discuss and I gave you a high rating, despite the fact that my agreement is not complete. I definitely agree with your closing comment "Freedom requires choice, which is why equal opportunity represents freedom, and equal outcomes represent totalitarianism."

            All the Best,

            Jonathan

              Yes it was me, Ed..

              I'm sorry the time taken to write was longer than the server's 'timeout' setting. That 'feature' has become a bit annoying.

              All the Best,

              Jonathan

              Mark,

              Thanks very much for your comments, which I agree with. I've not had time to read as many as I usually do, but I'm glad I found your essay and hope you continue to rank well in the contest.

              Best regards,

              Edwin Eugene Klingman

              Hi Doug,

              I'm very pleased that you liked my approach, as you appear to be the only other author to apply a physics metaphor to the problem.

              We do agree on the central point of your essay, which is to 'try all paths' instead of a centralized command and control.

              You mentioned that the path integral approach is a very close connection to thermodynamics/statistical mechanics. I have recently re-awakened to the fact that the Wick rotation will convert the partition function into a path integral and vice versa. I've spent some time on this amazing fact, and I plan to spend more.

              Perhaps we can continue this discussion offline.

              Congratulations on your current well-deserved high ranking in the contest.

              By the way I received the 23 May 2014 issue of 'Science' in the mail this morning. It has a whole special section dedicated to "the Science of Inequality". There may be a new field budding.

              My best regards

              Edwin Eugene Klingman

              Dear Laurence,

              Thank you for your close reading and your comments and questions.

              I agree with your answer to your first question about freedom and social stability: the goal is to achieve social stability (survival!) while doing the best we can to achieve as much freedom for individuals as possible. You have correctly interpreted the "cost function" statement.

              The second question is harder to answer. You indicate that those who successfully market their ideas may succeed in promoting their own inferior ideas above better, less well marketed (or less well-funded) ideas. You identify this as a problem associated with economic freedom, but I find exactly the same problem occurring in academia, where "wealth" is more a matter of "prestige" (and the accompanying funding), but ideas are still marketed unequally.

              In general I do not see a solution of this that does not involve gatekeeping by a "master" class, controlling the expression of the beta class. It's a tough problem.

              Thanks for participating. I always enjoy our discussions.

              Best regards,

              Edwin Eugene Klingman

              Dear Daniel,

              Thanks for your questions.

              You note that humans have free will and can pursue common goals without economic incentives. That is surely true, and is a counterargument against a too narrow interpretation of my approach.

              I suggest in the essay that there is still "motion" in the case of equality, but the movement resembles "diffusion" more than directed activity. I do think that this aspect of reality (the existence of gradients) intrudes even into human affairs. Very little seems to get accomplished without resources being applied, despite that we can, many of us, agree to pursue a common goal.

              I do hope to continue work on the idea. The Science magazine I received in today's mail has a front cover dedicated to "the Science of Inequality". The special section is quite lengthy and I haven't read it yet, but it seems to indicate that these ideas are worth developing.

              Thanks again for your response, and congratulations on your current very high ranking.

              Best regards,

              Edwin Eugene Klingman

              Jonathan,

              The middle class is the center of the (ideal) Gaussian distribution. Of course we do not have an ideal distribution due to collusion between super wealthy and government, but my theory is certainly compatible with a strong middle class.

              Based on experience working for government and experience working for industry and experience working for myself, I'm quite sure that government breeds inefficiency. Because some halfhearted attempts at relief from overbearing government regulation have not produced Nirvana does not imply that the nature of centralized control is not inefficiency. It is!

              Thanks for your high score. I think some who disagree with my take on government have overridden you. Congratulations on your current position in the contest. Your ideas are easier for all of us to agree with!

              Have fun,

              Edwin Eugene Klingman

              Edwin Eugene Klingman,

              Great essay! You clearly stepped us through your logic and found a way to relate social issues to Physics, which was the goal of the contest. I think whoever thought of the topic was looking for a very different essay, but no one can say you did not match their goals.

              I do see some fundamental problems with your set-up. Work, energy and money do not have consistent relationship. An electric bill shows a nice relationship between energy and money, but natural gas is often far lower for the same amount of energy. A bulldozer can move more dirt in five minutes that the strongest man can move in a day with a shovel. A song that might take an hour to write might be worth hundreds of bulldozers (or might not be worth the price of a shovel.

              The thermal dynamics you used was for a closed system near equilibrium. Our social is an open system (people are entering and leaving), it might be possible to assume a steady-state system, but even that is far from reality.

              Hope you win this instead of some polar bear loving electric car essay (I like polar bears and electric cars, I have just read too many essays with them as subjects),

              Jeff

                Dear Jeff,

                Thanks for your gracious remarks and your appreciation. I certainly agree with your observations, as it is requires extreme idealization to apply science developed for elementary particles to human beings. Yet there does seem to be some validity to the analysis. And some of the ideas I have applied seem to have relevance to non-equilibrium systems as well.

                I've now re-read your essay and (as always) got more out of second reading. I very much appreciate your suggestion that "social intelligence" (for lack of a better term) is at work, and your several examples illustrating your theme, such as urban urban animal adaptation. I live on a ranch and am very tuned to animal intelligence, and have also observed the social phenomena you discuss.

                I especially appreciate your comment:

                "Our intelligent social system has mostly made good decisions in the past and I see no big mistake it is making at the moment and no way to stop it, if it was making a large mistake."

                I think there is a lot of wisdom in your short essay and I will try to kick you higher up the totem pole so more people might see it.

                My best regards,

                Edwin Eugene Klingman