Peter,

There are abbreviations like MRT for something undoubtedly convincing: magnet resonance tomography. Engineers can easily imagine an (allegedly entangled) pair of helical waves/particles having the same sign of polarization if considered along x but opposite signs relative to r. In so far our ideas might be close to each other. However, I criticize your abbreviation DFM for several reasons. Google and Yahoo indicate: It is not even known among scientists except for a very few here at FQXi. You used it abundantly and always in connection with claims that are not compellingly formulated. Your argumentation sees allies everywhere while those who don't understand you are troglodytes.

I did not yet deal with the measurements by Dayton Miller for two reasons: The null result was confirmed with numerous more accurate measurements, and I found out that it was to be expected if ideally empty space is understood not as a medium but as distances.

I also maintain that there might be a basic flaw to be found in all interpretations of experiments from which the paradoxical aspects of QM were derived. Why are you not interested in the logical flaws concerning infinite numbers, ict, and ih?

Eckard

Eckard,

"..there might be a basic flaw to be found in all interpretations of experiments from which the paradoxical aspects of QM were derived."

I agree. The flaw is what I've identified. It's known that modulator magnetic field orientation is rotated with 'setting'. What is NOT accepted is that the field electron orientation modulates the 'photon' orientation. The problem is that as the 'up'/'down' is random, reversing a whole set would NOT change any statistical results!

If we accept the particles ARE rotated, then all the spooky nonsense goes away. Bell actually found that himself (p.146) but couldn't work out how the 'intermediate' distributions could be found so declared; "No. It cannot be done." The orbital velocity distribution with latitude in my essay now shows it CAN be done. But the problem seems to be more about 'indoctrination'. The geometry was a simpler task.

I know I'll get, and expect, no credit. If I'm mentioned at all it'd be as the guy who couldn't explain the obvious workings of nature to all but a few! I have to plead guilty in advance. And I don't at all mind spelling out 'discrete field model' each time for you if you prefer Eckard. I'll otherwise try to use convention.

I note with interest your reference to; 'confirmed null results', which are new to me. I'm only familiar with the very many non 'null' ones (including M&M) or the few clearly inapplicable or wrongly interpreted. I'm surprised but very interested in studying them. Do please post links. Millers results have been well confirmed (but his spat with Einstein led to neglect) and all astronomical analysis including the barycentric ecliptic plane transition supports them.

Atmospheric refraction is now well established and quantified precisely at all declinations. The refraction process doesn't need any 'ether' to work. Certainly there is real; 'distance' but clearly the state of motion of scattering particles in the solar system relates to the suns rest frame, yet those around Earth relate to Earth's. (We also know from probes that beyond the ionosphere signal speed is c in the Sun's frame, not ours). Are you suggesting otherwise?!

I agree about numbers, discussing what I found as the critical cases in my 2013 essay. Bell predicted that 'solving' his theorem/QM wasn't possible from the front but may be 'from the back'. That falls in with the 'picture' I see of the crowd trying to enter the great 'vault' of natures secrets. I went round the back and found a loose panel. The contents I can reach are entirely paradox free, clear and beautiful. But no amount of calling to those at the front will distract each from his own beliefs long enough to come around and look properly.

I'm now relaxed about it, and still suggest; 'perhaps by 2020'. I don't call all "those who don't understand" troglodytes (I do my best to help) but I do those who refuse to try as they're too steeped in the "decades of indoctrination" referred by Goldstein, or solely on their own views. We must each follow our path, but many seem to go that way!

Best wishes

Peter

Free for All;

The peace in belief

in God when awake

is believing

you do while asleep.

In this the Quants

are right.

It's not that God

never throws dice,

he's down on one knee

every night,

he just always loads

the die.

jrc

Pete,

"What is NOT accepted is that the field electron orientation modulates the photon orientation."

As Tom and I had touched on some while back, this lack of correlation is a result of the ad hoc nature of Bohr's 'quantum leap' that theoretically occurs across the orbitals instantaneously, which not only violates the 'c' postulate accepted in all else in QM, but isolates artificially the emission source from the photonic emission wave characteristics. And that isolation then extends mathematically to emission from any free electron. This, I think, is the original flaw in Quantum Mechanics.

While I follow your arguments to some extent, I question your reliance on all interactions being exclusively 'absorption : re-emission' events rather than there being a quantum probability that some will be that, while others will be 'near-miss' field effect events. And I would imagine as an electrical engineer, this confuses Eckard from delving too deeply into your other arguments. It is a stumbling block if one accepts the hypothesis that the reason we have Quantum Probabilities is because a free rest mass IS a Unified Field for which science has yet to devise an accepted, mathematically complete theoretical description. Personally, I think Einstein missed the boat in not giving GR it's own legs and going back to treating gravity as a force in determining what portion of energy in a unified field will exhibit only gravitational characteristics. There is no known causal relationship for the Gravitational Constant, and any use of differential calculus introduces infinitesimals, so it perhaps is not surprising that singularities and Big Bangs result from GR without an ad hoc Cosmological Constant.

Live long and progress, jrc

John C,

Maybe gravity isn't its own force, but a loss of volume/increasing density of the field, due to a spectrum of other relations and forces? A simple observation that light/radiation expands, while mass contracts. Do we look for the force causing light to expand out? Not really. It's just the consequence of released energy. As with the structure of mass, there are a range of processes going on, from magnetism to structural ordering, which condense it to a smaller volume. Could it be that gravity is not simply just a composite of these effects, but all of them working together in an overall relation?

So then the effective way to model it is as the space itself shrinking.

Regards,

John M

Which also goes to a point I was making below; Does light really travel as a photon, or is that an affect of its absorption and thus an initial stage of this contraction process?

Regards,

JM

J.C.

J.M asked the right question; "Does light really travel as a photon".

Does Eckard really think it does? If it did then we wouldn't just have "near misses", at EPR ranges it's be like hitting a speck of dust with a scatter gun at half a mile!

The signal expands as a wavefront, as the nonlinear Schrodinger (NLS) equation and as we know from coherent forward scattering (CFS) and Huygens Construction, the staples of optics and photonics etc. well proven experimentally.

That explains why there are so many reliable hits, even at long range. We COULD say there are mainly 'near misses' because most of the wavefront misses the electrons of course! But the wavefront can't get past without part being absorbed.

That all also goes back to JD Jackson, the bible of electrodynamics, and 'extinction distances' dependent on medium density. It's s tricky to envisage a wavefront having spin, but it actually has a whole recursive SET of spins! at all scales. It seems that each electron in the detector field will absorb some of the (harmonic scale) spin and conserve the quanta (spin) while rotating it's axis.

The diffuse wavefron energy explains why the EM field electron is the massively dominant partner in propagation of EM energy, which completes the full DFM unification dynamic as each one re-emits at c in it's OWN rest frame, so implementing local CSL. (SR) One very simple mechanism to unify all physics!

(Ooops, forgot GR; The condensate has a local paucity of energy while the particle exists, so a 'density gradient', to obey conservation law).

Does any of that sound too speculative or silly? Nice to have somebody else to peek into the back of the vault with. Do you reckon we could get that panel off and share the contents all around a bit? That WOULD be progress!

Best wishes

Peter

Pete & John M.

"it's like hitting a speck of dust with a scatter gun"

Thanks, your model is taking more shape in my understanding now. I would agree that 'part' of the expanding wavefront interacts with the field in a near miss and that the scenario is similar to nuclear cross section. Sometimes it hits spot on!

But what is the 'photon'? Well, I would say it definitely is not a spherical wave. And the terminology must be qualified lest we confuse one second worth of emission as the single 'photon'. It really is not difficult to envisage physical rotation in the expanding wavefront if we look at a helical model of OAM being the constancy of magnetic influence that would be detectable by instruments. Electrostatic influence is a 'c' proportion greater in the same point charge as determined by Maxwell. So right or left hand twist is as you say, observer dependent, but in relation to one another polarity would be dependent on the direction of rotation but arbitrarily assigned as Franklin had done. Following this line of reason would mean that the inertial volume of a quanta of emission is a linear phenomenon and the particle form observed in the photo electric effect is the greatest electrostatic influence while the wavefront in the helical linear projection is an expansion from the electrostatic to the minimum detectable magnetic influence that would describe the real physical cross section of the helix. It is simply that an emission source might radiate photonic helical emissions omnidirectionally which would then register as a single spherical wave.

The question then becomes; how does the linear quanta projection evolve in a physical volume configuration from an excited electron mass? Wouldn't wavelength be dependent on the real time it takes for a CONTINUOUS flow of energy to emerge from the electron?

And of course, if E=mc^2, what part of that energy exists at a density which could be said to be the 'hard' core of a free rest mass?

I subscribe to a notion that the behavior of energy in a discrete mass quantity will transmit primary force effects such that a greater density will exhibit all those effects of lesser densities but not vice-versa.

Do we agree that Quantum probabilities are dependent on there being discrete fields that may assume either an EM physical configuration self limiting to the Planck Quanta per wavelength, or a relative rest mass configuration limited to an upper bound that may not exceed that of the largest observed isotopic mass?

And... onward through the fog! jrc

Peter J,

Engineers like me know that any standing wave can be interpreted as two superimposed waves that propagate in opposite direction, and vice versa. Obviously, there are no strictly speaking standing waves in reality but an average over many cycles rather than infinitely much of cycles.

Also, a linear polarized transverse wave can be interpreted as superposition of a clockwise and an anti-clockwise spinning wave, and vice versa, cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_polarization

Can polarization be attributed to particles? If so, why wasn't spinning explained accordingly? Is this question at the hearth of your objection?

Eckard

Peter, John C, Eckard,

Isn't light as a wave essentially holographic and the quantization more a function of the reception, so that the issues of entanglement/non-locality are essentially the same properties which allow two people in different directions to observe the same event? A function of the information being carried.

Then gravity as a measure of this collapsing wave, such that why gravity waves can't be detected is because they are the information being carried by light and its reception as a contraction of the energy?

Regards,

John M

John,

"Wouldn't wavelength be dependent on the real time it takes for a CONTINUOUS flow of energy to emerge from the electron?"

Yes, or rather a 'cycle', which the propagates at c wrt each electrons centre of mass rest frame.

The physical analogy of the NLS equation (which has a 'spread function') is perhaps spherical but the emission energy is highly FOCUSSED on the same axis as the charge (plasma doesn't refract except 'kinetically' if moving sideways during the process, which explains 'kinetic reverse refraction' and 'stellar aberration'.

Many of these are propagating from many electrons. The 'energy is only requantised at constructive interference 'peaks' or where impacting matter (another electron, which may be at a 'refractive plane').

The above is really as old as the hills, certainly the Huygens/Fresnel principle (HFP) and Huygens Construction, but QED also has a valid description of the distribution via sum-over-paths. In answer to your other questions and descriptions, I don't know.

I recognised a few snippets but I'm not sure if what they describe is close enough to the perception I uses. Certainly the Planck limit plays it's roles in defining min wavelength gamma and so the LT. I really don't like speculating so only wish to go so far as what's both needed and consistent with a coherent bigger picture.

We need to shine some more light on it. Got a torch?

lol

Peter

JBM,

"..the quantization more a function of the reception". I agree that, but; "entanglement/non-locality" need to do far more. By current convention on current assumptions; If Alice changes her detector switch Bob's finding a light year away must instantly CHANGE! What discrete field dynamics (DFM) now shows is which precise parts of which 'hidden' assumptions are wrong and how the effect found are produced if changed.

In a nutshell(ish!) the new DFM assumptions include;

1. 'Particle' spin propagates on the spin axis (causal wavefront 'normal') at c.

2. Electron filter/modulator field direction modulates the 'particle' spin.

3. The spin direction found is then RELATIVE to the detector spin direction.

4. Orbital angular momentum (OAM) changes with 'latitude' by the cosine of the angle from the equatorial plane to that latitude.

5. 'Measurement' is exchange of OAM on physical interaction at any (tangent) point on that 'line of latitude'.

6. As BOTH parties(cles) are spinning, the relative angles of BOTH are compared and the cosine squared to produce the quantum correlation, which is then also Malus's Law.

That works (Bell was frustratingly close on p146) but only deals with one quantum 'gauge', so at higher orders (the smaller spin helix of the 'twine' making up the 'string') uncertainty ('probabilism') remains so it does not prove nature is ultimately deterministic. However the very same o process modulates emission speed to local c, so the STR can use 'absolute' time and so be unified with QM. (inertial systems are give spatial constraints. (Much of the rest I've been able to reach so far is in the essays).

A lot to follow I know. Do please, all, let me know if you can make coherent sense of it, or which bits not.

Many Thanks. Best wishes

Peter

Eckard,

"Can polarization be attributed to particles? If so, why wasn't spinning explained accordingly? Is this question at the hearth of your objection?"

Yes. At the heart to.. 'Spin' wasn't explainable as OAM due too 'spin 1/2' and '2' etc. which took half or two revolutions to return to the start point. That's why my Fig 1 is so critical; it shows that spin can be simply different 'scales' of orbital angular momentum (OAM). Follow the reference I give and you'll see the quite conclusive support from optics etc. A ships rope is a good model; there is twist within twist within twist, then you can wrap it round a spar, then spin the ship on a planet, etc.

A point or dipole on a 'linear polarized transverse wave' may be considered as describing the rope, with opposite 'spin' when observed from each end (all OAM is 'non-mirror symmetric'). Once we can describe QM's 'Q'AM as OAM we can get rid of all the spooky nonsense and derive 'entanglement' (simply the conserved opposing spin axis) and 'non-locality' (Alice doe NOT need to affect Bob's finding to explain the results found because detector field electron direction MODULATES polarity!!

Now just go through the short list I just posted to John to put the whole jigsaw puzzle together and solve the EPR paradox. Both QM and SR have to be re-interpreted slightly to converge. Each inertial system is real, based on matter, and has a physical 'DISTANCE' limit, not the 'infinity' implied now.

Does that open up a better insight? (There's lots more in there, all connected).

best wishes

Peter

Peter,

"Do please, all, let me know if you can make coherent sense of it, or which bits not. "

{link:http://nautil.us/issue/15/turbulence/the-scientific-problem-that-must-be-experienced]Hah.[/link] I have some sense of my own limits. Basically it does seem like you are taking turbulence down to the quantum level and while I certainly applaud the order you have managed to derive, I have the sense to stand on the seashore and simply marvel.

As I keep trying to argue, sometimes the details really are beyond any but the most specialized needs and then we should step back and try to see if there are not larger patterns, that while fuzzy in the details, can still be informative.

One of the arguments I keep making about complexity theory, is that it is not so much the line between order and chaos, but between order/information and energy. These systems are otherwise known as thermodynamics/convection. Keeping in mind that order is inherently static, while energy is inherently dynamic, thus creating a tension which manifests at all levels, as thermodynamics.

As I keep trying to argue, galaxies can be explained by this process, as energy expands and mass contracts. Now when you get down to the level of the spin of individual particles and systems, the main problem is trying to isolate any part of it from the contextual dynamic. Which can only really be done for specific purposes, with specific caveats. The problem is when we turn around and try to extrapolate those models back onto describing the whole system, rather than just the part we distilled it from. Then we end up with ideas like blocktime and black holes, which are approximately linear derivatives of cyclical realities and then wonder what happens if we 'sail off the end of the world,' as our model tells us we will, because the 'physics breaks down.' Yet the order/information derived, being static, must be more real than any fuzzy, chaotic energy. (Even a moving car doesn't have an exact location, or it wouldn't be moving. Dynamic versus static.)

As it is, my head spins enough. I like the little blocks of order that come along on occasion.

Regards,

John M

JBM, Eckard, Pete,

We are all at least asking the same questions, however differently stated. I like to think that is progress.

The picture of OAM is predicated on a sphere, or spheroid by extrapolation, and so provides a rationale for the cyclical nature of the typical sinusoidal signature of EM. I'm a bit fuzzy how that works in Pete's DFM. Do we look at the linear projection of EM as successive bursts of quanta each with it's inherent OAM? I am currently in favor of the quanta per wavelength being determined by some mechanism that is consistent with the near field evolution as a difeomorphism from a continuous flow of energy from an excited (energized) electron seeking to maintain an optimal volume:energy configuration. That is quite distinct from the behavior of an electron as constituent of an atomic mass. The wave function of probability as to where and when an electron is measured in an atomic volume is not necessarily 'unreal' if an electron rest mass is physically an optimal balance of energy quantity prescribing a finite volume. The predominance of electrons as discrete particulate matter, the uniformity of its rest mass and charge, and it's stability which defies calculable half-life; all suggest it is an optimum volume:energy entity. As such, it may well be that its propensity to evolve from a nondifferentiated energy 'soup' in the atomic volume gives rise to the purely mathematical probability of the wave function. Bell's 'beable'. jrc

Sometimes God loads the dice. Those are called miracles.

Jason,

So the creationist answer to 'Why Quantum?' is that it's a miracle?! jrc

Random eigenstates are the ultimate back door into God's creation. Occasionally those same random eigenstate back doors are used by ... other things.