Essay Abstract

Some seemingly mysterious interpretations of mathematics by physicists are just unwarranted. When the ancient mathematicians attributed abstract notions like number and shape to physical objects, they didn't distinguish these notions from real objects and didn't accept fictitious numbers, numbers in excess of the pebbles of abacus. The progress of science stagnated until with Renaissance mathematicians ignored the restriction to countable elements of reality. By liberating mathematics they paved the way for calculus and complex calculus; these then boosted physics and technology. Later on, free evolution of mathematics was proclaimed. Such freedom contradicts discovered laws of nature rather than invented ones. By means of clever restricted constructs, modern set theory promised rigorously avoiding the gap between Euclid's point that has no parts and Peirce's continuum every part of which has parts. Belonging inconsistencies in physics gave rise to suggest a more natural foundation of mathematics. It renders CH, ZFC, EPR, and Bell not even wrong. Physics mainly suffers from bad habit to maximally generalize models and to interpret results immediately in an artificial mathematical domain as if they were automatically valid in reality too. Hilbert may be blamed for his denial of the now and for his untenable strategy to formulate axioms and then to deduce physics. Let's instead reinstall obedience to natural restrictions on the results of calculations and reject arbitrarily enforced rigor that misled us into futile increasingly speculative theories. For instance: It is not warranted to ascribe singular points to reality; time symmetry is an artifact due to careless use of complex calculus; translation from fiction back to reality is a must.

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Dear Eckhard,

Once again your essay delights me. Your erudite analysis of the history of mathematics and your focus on application to physics is excellent preparation for this essay topic.

As I do not believe there is anything corresponding to infinity in physics, I have never bothered (except in math classes eons ago) to think much about infinity. I intuitively accept a physical field as a continuum, and know that approximations based on limits typically do the trick. So while these math concepts do not cause me mental worry, nevertheless it is a joy to see you analyze the various errors and false turns. And to see your emphasis again on positive numbers as best corresponding to physical reality.

There is one point that I hope you can clarify for me. As you know I focus on counters and arithmetic-logic circuitry as a physical source of (encoded) numbers, and often quote Kronecker as saying "God made the integers, all the rest is the work of man." But you note (p.6) Brouwer "failed making mathematics more self-consistent because he considered the Ur-intuition of counting pebbles as the ultimate basis of all mathematical doing." Then (p.7) you mentioned that Dedekind "fell back into the very old ancient notion of pebble-like numbers." While my physical counters produce "pebble-like numbers", my arithmetic-logic circuits also introduce decimal points and arithmetic and comparison operations, so I tend to assume that for analysis of measurement data (as the basis of comparing physical models) this is sufficient. Do you have any comment or qualifications to add to this?

Also your section heading #6 claims to render EPR irrelevant, but I did not find the analysis in your essay, and I did not understand this from the heading. Can you clarify this for me?

Finally, I hope you will read my essay and comment on it. I have developed a local model that contradicts Bell's claim of impossibility, and I hope you find it interesting.

My very best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Dear Eckhard,

    Interpreting our math without physical constraints leads to abstract mathematical objects that do not exist in our universe. I invite you to read my essay and give me your informed comments. Thanks.

    Ken Seto

      Dear Eckard,

      Your essay traces the historical origins of the debate. I am happy the effort you put into this came out with something worth reading and enjoying. You discussed very well the different sides of the debate. For example comparing Euclid's point as something that doesn't have parts and C. S. Peirce's continuum as something every part of which has parts. As we have both argued in the past, I dispute the meaning of "not having parts" to imply being of zero magnitude. Rather, I prefer the definition of "having no parts" as implying an indivisible magnitude.

      Why do you include volume among unphysical mathematical notions?

      Also, let me ask you other questions: 1) Can the Universe perish (e.g. in a Big Crunch) or can the Universe be created from nothing (e.g. in a Big bang)? 2) If you answer is Yes, does that mean that the Peirce-continuum along with its points also perish? In my essay I make a hypothesis on this.

      Your essay, made me to check up a bit more about Peirce's logic and I found this in the Stanford Encyclopedia: "...Peirce says that if a line is cut into two portions, the point at which the cut takes place actually becomes two points...".

      Does this mean that 'the point at which the cut takes place' has two parts? If so, this contradicts the geometric definition.

      All the best in the competition.

      Regards,

      Akinbo

        Akinbo,

        Asking "Why do you include volume among unphysical mathematical notions?" you referred to this:

        When Spinoza wrote "It is absurd to claim that bodies are composed of areas, areas of lines, and finally lines of points" he equated the physical notion "body" with the mathematical notion volume. ... A body in reality cannot at all be composed of abstract items.

        I would like to emphasize that Euclid's definitions of volume, area, line, and point are perhaps best possible abstractions and therefore categorically distinguished from physical reality. Well, this opinion of mine contradicts the belief that physical reality is something mathematical.

        Incidentally, I disagree with "a line of zero breadth can always divide a non-zero extension, no matter how small it is". Volume is a non-zero extension too. However a line cannot divide it.

        You asked: "Can the dividing line and the divided line simultaneously occupy the same point?"

        Let's replace the dividing line by Dedekind's cut. I am arguing that Dedekind's axiom requires the non-zero dimensional pebble-like point that you are suggesting, an extended point in contrast to that of "some" mathematicians

        which is zero-dimensional. This may indicate why I listed Euclid among those from which mathematical physics deviates, not the other way round.

        Some earlier essay of mine revealed inconsistencies in mathematics due to Dedekind's mutilation of the good old meaning of number as a measure back to a more primitive pebble.

        Just speculators will appreciate your speculative support for what I called Zeno's fallaciously fabricated paradoxes. I see you following Hjelmslev.

        Don't you mingle mathematics with physical reality by writing "a straight line can be curved if brought into proximity to a gravitational mass"?

        Anyway, I tried to show how physics suffers from unwarranted interpretations and regret that you didn't even try to check my arguments and conclusions.

        Eckard

        Joe,

        Reading in my abstract "It is not warranted to ascribe singular points to reality; time symmetry is an artifact due to careless use of complex calculus; translation from fiction back to reality is a must", you might have understood that dealing with truly foundational questions is not always in vain.

        Eckard

        Dear Dr. Blumschein,

        You make a number of points in your analysis, with the common theme of questioning whether mathematical models in physics may be improperly interpreted, leading to misleading or incorrect physics.

        My own essay addresses a similar issue: "Remove the Blinders: How Mathematics Distorted the Development of Quantum Theory"

        I argue that premature adoption of an abstract mathematical framework prevented consideration of a simple, consistent, realistic model of quantum mechanics, avoiding paradoxes of indeterminacy, entanglement, and non-locality. What's more, this realistic model is directly testable using little more than Stern-Gerlach magnets.

        Alan Kadin

          Dear Edwin,

          Are pebble-like numbers sufficient for the analysis of measurement data? My anything but erudite reasoning arrives at a no. Hopefully at least you will not take me wrong; I very much enjoy using and correctly interpreting complex calculus. My emphasis is on CORRECTLY.

          Formally, the Heaviside-based theory of analyzing data measured in real time is not even wrong. Nonetheless, the natural solution is still by far superior. It took me quite a while until I revealed the decisive reason and excluded not yet existing future data from analysis. Proponents of pebble-like numbers cannot accept this.

          Akinbo Ojo suggests splitting pebble-like non-zero dimensional numbers. Giovanni Prisinzano came closer to me by modifying this idea and speaking of Dedekind's cut as a binding instead of severing point, a point that is common to the left as well as to the right surrounding. While such maneuvers seem to resolve the EPR paradox too, I don't sacrifice Euclid's and Peirce's definitions.

          More later.

          My very best regards,

          Eckard Blumschein

          Dear Dr. Kadin,

          I did of course read your again excellent essay. I had already quoted your topic 1993 in my topic 2012 and 1296 in 1364.

          Hopefully, someone will perform the test you are suggesting. I just vaguely recall someone else repeatedly suggesting: Someone should look. Nobody did so. That's why I rather trust in other arguments too. Unfortunately, I have no background in quantum theory and can therefore not provide immediate support. Did you already deal with the essays by Klingman, McEachern, and Smolin?

          Please don't disdain the "number of points" I made even if they may fundamentally contradict to what every academic has to learn. I would appreciate any serious hint to mistakes if mine.

          Eckard

          Dear Sir,

          You have hit the Bull's eye with the naming of your essay. It could not have been described better. The Renaissance mathematicians did not 'liberate' mathematics; they led it astray 'by means of clever restricted constructs' 'to maximally generalize models and to interpret results immediately in an artificial mathematical domain as if they were automatically valid in reality too'. We fully agree with your introductory tenets. In our essay here, we have shown how Russell's paradox of set theory contradicts relativity.

          Ancient Indian texts use zero, infinity and negative numbers as interpreted by you. According to them, a number divided by zero remains unchanged (not become infinite). We have discussed this with justification elsewhere. However, imaginary numbers are not mathematics as shown in our essay here. Dr. Schneider has written a beautiful essay here, where he has discussed complex numbers and its effect on relativity. The concept of minus infinity via 0 to positive infinity is a totally wrong concept as shown in our essay. Numbers are a property of all substances by which we differentiate between similars. If there are no similars, it is one. If there are similars, it is many; which can be 2,3....n depending upon the sequence of perception of 'one's. Thus, mathematics cannot be divested from objective reality. Your notion of time is identical to that in our essay.

          Newton and Leibniz evolved calculus from charts prepared from the power series, based on the binomial expansion. The binomial expansion is supposed to be an infinite series expansion of a complex differential that approached zero. But this involved the problems of the tangent to the curve and the area of the quadrature. In Lemma VII in Principia, Newton states that at the limit (when the interval between two points goes to zero), the arc, the chord and the tangent are all equal. But if this is true, then both his versine must be zero. In that case, he is talking about a line so that neither the versine equation nor the Pythagorean Theorem applies. Hence it cannot be used in calculus for summing up an area with spatial dimensions.

          Newton and Leibniz found the solution to the calculus while studying the "chityuttara" principle of ancient India, which is now called Pascal's differential triangle. To solve the problem of the tangent, this triangle must be made smaller and smaller. We must move from x to ホ"x. But can it be mathematically represented? No point on any possible graph can stand for a point in space or an instant in time. A point on a graph stands for two distances from the origin on the two axes. To graph a straight line in space, only one axes is needed - the connecting line. For a point in space, zero axes are needed. Either you perceive it directly without reference to any origin or it is non-existent. Only during measurement, some reference is needed.

          In many ways, our essays here complement each other.

          Regards,

          basudeba

            Dear basudeba,

            You are blaming not just me wrong but also some experts in history of mathematics. I maintain: Renaissance, enlightenment predominantly in non-Catholic countries of Europe, and both application and upcoming scientific exchange LIBERATED mathematics by ignoring the ancient restriction to the forward countable elements of reality. Let me give a perhaps most simple example:

            It is of course possible to describe sound in terms of absolute pressure of air. However, acoustics benefits a lot from what you called "going astray", a mathematical trick. Absolute pressure can be considered as two fictitious components, a constant one and a superimposed one that alternates between positive and negative values.

            Thank you for pointing me to the somewhat strange ancient Indian mathematics and to the essay by Schneider. I will read his and yours.

            Regards,

            Eckard

            Dear Ken Hon Seto,

            My references include meanwhile heretical papers by Euclid and Galileo. Unfortunately you didn't refer to scientific work. Therefore I am not in position to judge your Model Mechanics. My difficulties begin with your claim for absolute time. What do you mean with it?

            I consider the currently elapsed time the natural reference.

            Eckard Blumschein

            Akinbo,

            While I answered your question "Why do you include volume among unphysical mathematical notions" I didn't yet answer the following numbered questions:

            1) Can the Universe perish (e.g. in a Big Crunch) or can the Universe be created from nothing (e.g. in a Big bang)?

            2) If you answer is Yes, does that mean that the Peirce-continuum along with its points also perish?

            My answer is: The universe is by definition just a mental container of anything physical, the whole of space including all the stars, galaxies, and possible even multiverses.

            I abstain from any comment on belonging speculations unless they look simply like obviously nonsensical artifacts. For instance, even H.-D. Zeh distrusted white holes ascribed to a Schwarzschild solution. A God is not trustworthy because he is to similar to hoe humans look.

            When I attributed the definition of a genuine continuum to Peirce, I was aware that it was not a new insight by himself but just formulated the infinite divisibility. Why felt C.S. Peirce overwhelmed by set theory? Stanford Encyclopedia omits a lot. If I recall correctly, Peirce was proud of having found Dedekind's definition of infinity before Dedekind.

            Having quoted: "Peirce says that if a line is cut into two portions, the point at which the cut takes place actually becomes two points..." you are asking:

            "Does this mean that 'the point at which the cut takes place' has two parts? If so, this contradicts the geometric definition."

            It looks as if you are aware of the calamity which I ascribe to Dedekind's notion of number as a pebble.

            Regards,

            Eckard

            Eckard,

            You said you have trust only in the definition of a point as having no extension. In my opinion, this may be one example of "Your Physics Suffers from Unwarranted Interpretations", the title of your essay.

            In my 2013 Essay, I briefly discussed how your definition came about. Let me copy and paste for your convenience the relevant portion, with bold and italics to highlight the important things to note:

            "Divisibility played a key role in apprehending the objects of geometry and arriving at a best definition of them. If all that has magnitude must be divisible, then only a zero magnitude cannot be divided and this will be the fundamental unit of geometry. One other argument attributed to Simplicius, goes as follows. If a body, having 3-dimensions is one dimension away from surfaces, then surfaces will have 2-dimensions. If a line is one dimension away from surfaces, then lines will have 1-dimension. By this logic then, the point would be one dimension away from a line and thus be of 0-dimension [1], p.157.

            Right from the early era the definitions have been contentious. The Platonic view was that things in the physical world are imperfect replicas of things in a perfect realm and should be taken as such. On this basis, it meant nothing for a line to have no breadth, even though nobody had seen such a line in reality... The Aristotelian view on the other hand appeared more inclined to getting descriptions as practical as possible to the reality we can actually behold. Like the Pythagoreans who were of the view that points were extended objects and called them monads to differentiate them from the dimensionless object of the Platonic school, Proclus and Aristotle also felt that points must really exist and had the attribute of position, but they were unclear at what magnitude the point could then be defined as the limit of divisibility.

            Although commonly portrayed as the arrowhead of the view that points were of zero dimension, Plato himself is quoted as somewhat disclaiming this. In Metaphysics, book I, part 9, paragraph 14, Aristotle tells us, "...Plato even used to object to this class of things as being a geometrical fiction". Instead, Plato is said to prefer that points be referred to as the 'beginning of lines' or as 'indivisible lines'. This defense was however denied him as Aristotle counters that if that were so, then the same argument and logic that makes lines exist must then equally prove that points also exist.

            For a fuller account of these arguments, other ancient definitions, criticism by commentators and modern views, see [1], pp.155-157 and [2], pp.76-80. Both also quote Aristotle's Metaphysics and Physics frequently. In summary, the fact as to whether a point is an extended object or a zero dimensional idea has had to be postulated, i.e. has had to be an act of faith and not from evidence. In our thinking, to accommodate the contending views, Euclid restricts himself to a least contentious, middle-of-the-road definition, but not as explicit in its detail, i.e. all are agreed that the fundamental unit of geometry would have no part. A point having no magnitude and of zero dimension would have no part. Likewise, an infinitesimal magnitude not further divisible into parts of itself would also satisfy Euclid's definition 'that of which there is no part'. This ambiguity may however have implications for the foundation of our physical theories, space being all pervasive".

            References

            [1] Heath, T.L., The Thirteen Books of Euclid's Elements. (3 vols.). New York: Dover Publications (1956).

            [2] Proclus, A Commentary on the First Book of Euclid's Elements, translated by Morrow, G.R., Princeton: Princeton University Press (1992).

            So Eckard, since you are following the Platonic interpretation may I ask:

            1. Is your point a geometric fiction or is it real?

            2. If it is real, can something that is of zero dimension exist? If so, how and where? Can it occupy a position?

            3. If it is not real, can something that is not real be a part of what is real? A line is real, at least in 1D (even though my line is 3D). Can an unreal point form a part of a real line which Euclid calls the extremity?

            4. When you divide a line into segments, each of those segments must by Euclid's definition have points as their extremity. From this does your point constitute lines?

            5. Finally, you talk of the continuum. In most cases, the linear continuum consists of an infinity of points. In your exchange with Edwin above, you said "Akinbo Ojo suggests splitting pebble-like non-zero dimensional numbers". No, I didn't say so. A non-zero dimensional point cannot be split. It satisfies Euclid's definition and cannot be split into parts. It is the smallest indivisible extension. That is why, Dedekind, Peirce and others have been worrying: "how then can we cut a line, if it consists of points, finite or infinite, since at every incidence for cutting a pint is located therein. My hypothesis suggests a solution. I never knew of Peirce till I read your essay. Thanks. I will read Giovanni Prisinzano views after this.

            Best regards and thanks for the conversation

            Akinbo

            Eckard,

            I just read Giovanni Prisinzano's essay that you recommended in a comment. I made some comments but unfortunately Giovanni may not be able to reply yet due to some problems.

            Regards,

            Akinbo

            Akinbo,

            I am sure; instead of '"Your Physics Suffers' you meant 'your "Physics Suffers'. Yes, I consider your interpretation of Euclid's definition (a point is something that has no parts) logically unwarranted although it can indeed bee seen as compromising with those who objected to Anaxagoras and suggested a-tomos parts.

            Leukippos, Demokrit, Epikur, and Lukrez did not yet distinguish between reality and mathematical models. They were correct concerning the limited divisibility of real objects but wrong concerning mathematical atoms. Any introduction of a smallest or a largest number contradicts the axiom of infinity which expresses irrefutable insights of Archimedes and Aristotle. Mathematics doesn't obey reality; it isn't an empirical science. Therefore there is no experimental evidence for the attribution of zero-dimensionality to a point.

            The Pythagoreans were proved wrong already in ancient time:

            There are definitely incommensurable ratios, and points cannot reasonably be thought as extended objects. They are dimensionless Platonic objects.

            Your blown up point reminds me of the extended reals that are thought to include infinity.

            To me, point, line, area, and volume altogether are ideal mathematical, not physically existing objects, and a n-dimensional continuum is not at all composed of (n-1)-dimensional elements. I see this not a matter of faith but of reasoning. In mathematics, the distinction between existing and non-existing might be difficult and futile. Comprehensive self-consistency is more important. This might answer your questions 1-3.

            4. Infinitesimals between two borders each are not zero-dimensional and can therefore constitute a larger continuum. They can however not be split into points.

            5: "A non-zero dimensional point cannot be split.It satisfies Euclid's definition and cannot be split into parts."

            This is your strange dogma.

            "It is the smallest indivisible extension."

            No. It has no extension at all.

            ""how then can we cut a line, if it consists of points, finite or infinite, since at every incidence for cutting a pint is located therein. My hypothesis suggests a solution."

            I don't understand what you meant with a pint (of beer?), perhaps a point. Anyway, I strongly disagree. Are there really finite or infinite points?

            Points cannot be cut. My solution to the conundrum isn't based on Dedekind's pebble-like numbers but on measures instead. In other words, I too don't use 0-dimensional and 1-dimensional perspectives at a time. Nonetheless, I consider points zero-dimensional.

            Kind regards,

            Eckard

            Your outcome sourcing fines definite improving notions which attracted conventional sources of measuring.

            With best regards,

            Miss. Sujatha Jagannathan

              Hi Eckard,

              Excellent, in-depth analytical essays in the spirit of hard Cartesian doubt. You talk about "unwarranted interpretations". Romanovskaya T.B. in [link:www.philosophy2.ru/iphras/library/physics.html#73 ] Sovremennaya fizika i sovremennoye iskusstvo - paralleli stilya// Fizika v sisteme kultury [Modern physics and contemporary art - parallels of style // Physics in the culture system][/link]. The author speaks about "crisis of interpretation and representation" in fundamental physics. Morris Cline says that "mathematics loss of certainty". The problem of the foundation of mathematics (better - justification or basification) for over a hundred years ... What are your ideas on a single foundation of "fundamental knowledge"? What interpretations "warranted"? What is "justified" basis of physics?...

              "Truth should be drawn ..." A.Zenkin "SCIENTIFIC COUNTER-REVOLUTION IN MATHEMATICS".

              Kind regards,

              Vladimir

                Miss. Sujatha Jagannathan,

                No matter how hard I am trying to understand your sentence, I have no clue what you meant. I am just a German. My dictionary tells me:

                If you are fined, you are punished by being ordered to pay a fine.

                A source is something from which something emerges. What is sourcing?

                An outcome is the result of a process or an action.

                What are definite notions?

                Eckard Blumschein

                Hi Vladimir,

                Dedekind and Georg Cantor were friends, at least for a while. I suspect a possible reason to Hilbert for popularizing Cantor instead of Dedekind to be found in Hilbert's admiration for stunning ideas. More than infinite, what a wonderful silly idea!

                I quoted two authors besides Zenkin who shed light into the matter: Mückenheim and Spalt.

                Meanwhile I am sure: The belonging key question relates already to Dedekind's changed notion of number. I see it unwarranted to abandon Euclid's definitions. My arguments arose from obvious inability of a professor of mathematics to explain logical inconsistencies. He pointed me to Weierstrass.

                My primary concern was a strict separation between past and future. Read Phipps' essay in order to see from a quite different side that spacetime is indeed not warranted but IR+ is valuable.

                When I dealt with IR+, I came the the history of negative and imaginary numbers.

                My message is: Interpretations directly in complex plane is not necessarily warranted.

                Kind regards,

                Eckard