Dear Mark,

First of all, many thanks for such an inspiring response!

Your pondering about a deep relation between Ultimate Mind and Ultimate Chaos reminded me the first lines of the Hegelian "Science of Logic":

"Pure Being and Pure Nothing are the same, and yet absolutely distinct from each other. This contradiction is resolved by their immediate vanishing, one into the other. The resultant movement, called Becoming, takes the form of reciprocal Coming-to-Be and Ceasing-to-Be."

The Ultimate Mind is not just a "sum of all modes of existence", but rather an inexpressible potentiality of being, where each constituent is granted its own special significance, whereas chaos grants no significance to anything. An example of such significance, as we underlined in the article, is theoretizablilty of the laws of nature.

I'd like to also note that, in contrast to our article, you are reserving some uncertainty as to the theoretizability of the Universe, saying that it only seems to be. We are pointing it out as a fact.

As to the "possible selection factors", I'd like to stress here as well, that such a factor cannot be just one more law, as for example the law of measure you mentioned. In that case the question of John A. Wheeler would remain unanswered. That selection can only be based on something above all the laws.

Alexey

Dear Dr. Burov,

I think Newton was wrong about abstract gravity; Einstein was wrong about abstract space/time, and Hawking was wrong about the explosive capability of NOTHING.

All I ask is that you give my essay WHY THE REAL UNIVERSE IS NOT MATHEMATICAL a fair reading and that you allow me to answer any objections you may leave in my comment box about it.

Joe Fisher

    5 days later

    Dear Joe,

    I am considering your post as a warning for myself. Thanks.

    Alexey & Lev,

    Excellent essay.

    It seems, though, that we are on opposite sides of Max Tegmark's hypothesis -- though for much the same reasons. To explain:

    You approach chaos theory as if it were dependent on the disorder of random events. In fact, though, chaos is deterministic -- and while I agree with you that on any particular scale of activity, chaotic behavior is "limitless and structureless," in a hub-connected network in which local information is distributed laterally (theory of multi-scale variety ~ Bar-Yam), rather than hierarchically, self-organized global order is evident.

    We agree fully on the important point: randomness is not a fundamental property of the universe.

    Highest mark from me, and I hope you get a chance to visit my essay.

    Best,

    Tom

      Hi Alexey,

      Several years ago I came up with my theory without knowing about Tegmark and upon checking the net(I couldn't believe what I have discovered) by googling "reality math" the search came up with MUH. I was so exited, contacted Tegmark and he replied favorably. However since, I have developed my theory and have arrived at many results BUT he refuses to comment. I think he is either not convinced of my system or the results look too grand and he does not want to be associated with a "crackpot".

      Checking your Bio I see that you are a physicist with programming background and you believe in MUH. You should be the perfect candidate for reviewing my theory. Please do not get discouraged by the claims, spend some reasonable time running some of the simulations, I hope you will see that I am not making up the results, the results are just coming out of the simulations and I have no control as such.

      It is also interesting that my theory is similar to Armin's in this contest but he still has hard time connecting both of us, understandably so.

      Maybe you have browsed my essay but I hope you spend more time on it, I think toy will like it, in general at least.Any comment is appreciated.

      "Reality is nothing but a mathematical structure, literally"

      Thanks and good luck

      P.S. please read some of the first comments in my thread for more information on running the programs. the running times are indicated on the programming pages which you can go to by clicking on the "program links" at the end of the sections.

        I hope that Lev will help in the running of the simulations. Thaks Lev.

        Dear Tom,

        Many thanks for your highest mark, which is especially impressive in view of our disagreements. It is very generous from your side indeed. I agree with you that in a sense Tegmark's Multiverse IV is determinisitic. What is random in his picture is our incarnation in this specific universe. With his 'mathematical democracy' hypothesis, everybody might find himself in any anthropic universe with the same probability. Since this conclusion contradicts to our (humanity) success as cosmic observers, we conclude that his multiverse hypothesis is refuted.

        Many thanks and all the best,

        Alexey.

        Dear Adel,

        I cannot say that I believe in MUH of Tegmark. On the contrary, in our essay we refute it. However, I still appreciate his 'mathematical democracy' as a clear and distinctive way to explain the origin of the laws of nature in scientific manner. I will have a look at your essay and write you in return.

        All the best and good luck!

        Alexey.

        Dear Alexy and Lev.

        Your paper is well argued. I will admit to being very agnostic about these sorts of ideas. In particular I am very agnostic about Tegmark's hypothesis, which seems not mathematically provable, nor scientifically testable. Even string theory is only at best indirectly testable, but Tegmark's Mathematical Universe Hypothesis seems impossible to test.

        A couple of points I mention first. The WAP as I understand it is the statement that the universe observed must be of sufficient complexity and structure to permit such observers. It does not mean that any cosmology that exists must admit observers. I think that is the strong AP (SAP). The other point is that chaos, at least within the meaning of Hamiltonian chaos or strange attractor physics, means that a system can execute a vast number of complex dynamics, all of them separated by very small initial conditions. This means that phase space is specified to a very small fine grained detail. Given this is cut into N boxes or pieces, and in each is one of the possible states (0, 1), the degree of complexity is 2^N = e^{S/k}. This is the dimension of the Hilbert space corresponding to this classical setting and the entropy S = k ln(2)N = k ln(dim H), H = Hilbert space. Chaos then in fact implies a high level of complexity.

        I did not make much mention of this in my essay. It could be said that mathematics has a body and soul. The body concerns things that are numerically computed and can in fact be computed on a computer. The soul involves things that involve infinitesimals and continua. These tend to be at the foundations of calculus with limits and related arguments. Even though my essay discusses homotopy, this is argued on the basis of continuous diffeomorphisms of loops or paths. However, in the end this is not what we directly compute in mathematics. We are interested in numbers, such as indices or topological numbers, and in physics that is much the same.

        If you crack open a book on differential geometry or related mathematics you read in the introduction something like, "The set of all possible manifolds that are C^в€ћ with an atlas of charts with a G(n,C) group action ... ." The thing is that you are faced with ideas here that seem compelling, but from a practical calculation perspective this is infinite and in its entirety unknowable. This along with infinitesimals, or even the Peano theory result for an infinite number of natural numbers, all appears "true," but much of it is completely uncomputable. This is because the soul of mathematics touches on infinity, or infinitesimals.

        The soul also involves things that quantum mechanically are not strictly ontological. These are wave functions or paths in a Feynman path integral. The existential status of these is not known, for the standard idea of epistemic interpretation is now found to be not complete. This differs from classical physics, where the physics is continuous, with perfectly sharply defined paths and energy values and so forth.

        I am somewhat agnostic about the existential status of the soul of mathematics. In some sense it seems compelling to say it exists, but on the other hand this leads one into something mystical that takes one away from science. So it is not possible as I see it now to make any hard statement about this. We seem to be a bit like Garrison Keillor's Guy Noir, "At the tenth floor of the Atlas building on a dark night in a city that knows how to keep its secrets, one man searches for answers to life's persistent questions, Guy Noir private eye."

        I will give your essay a vote in the 7 to 10 range. I have to ponder this for a while.

        Cheers LC

          • [deleted]

          Dear Lawrence,

          Thank you so much for your generous compliments to our essay. As you see, we are showing there how Tegmark's MUH is refuted on the scientific ground. Yes, it goes against the dominating opinion of the community of cosmologists (and your own), that the full-blown MUH is unfalsifiable, but our refutation looks very solid for me.

          About your 'couple of points'. First, your distinction of WAP and SAP fully agree with the conventional one, as I may judge. It isn't clear to me what point you were trying to make about them. Second, we use the word "chaos" in its ancient meaning, as we stress it when this word is used the first time, pointing there to Platonic philosophy. This meaning sometimes is expressed by such words as "nothingness" or "nothing". This formless entity, chaos/nothingness, is a source of pure accidental, random, causeless factors. It has little to do with the mathematical concept of "dynamical chaos" you mention, which assumes certain mathematical forms already given.

          Your ideas about "the soul of mathematics" sound very interesting to me, and I would very much wish to discuss them with you in much more detail than this specific place and occasion allows. You know how to find my email. Please be assured that I would highly value communication with you on these and other questions.

          All the best,

          Alexey.

          Dear Lawrence,

          Thank you so much for your generous compliments to our essay. As you see, we are showing there how Tegmark's MUH is refuted on the scientific ground. Yes, it goes against the dominating opinion of the community of cosmologists (and your own), that the full-blown MUH is unfalsifiable, but our refutation looks very solid for me.

          About your 'couple of points'. First, your distinction of WAP and SAP fully agree with the conventional one, as I may judge. It isn't clear to me what point you were trying to make about them. Second, we use the word "chaos" in its ancient meaning, as we stress it when this word is used the first time, pointing there to Platonic philosophy. This meaning sometimes is expressed by such words as "nothingness" or "nothing". This formless entity, chaos/nothingness, is a source of pure accidental, random, causeless factors. It has little to do with the mathematical concept of "dynamical chaos" you mention, which assumes certain mathematical forms already given.

          Your ideas about "the soul of mathematics" sound very interesting to me, and I would very much wish to discuss them with you in much more detail than this specific place and occasion allows. You know how to find my email. Please be assured that I would highly value communication with you on these and other questions.

          All the best,

          Alexey.

          Dear Alexey,

          I was hoping you and Lev find explicit mistakes in my system in the spirit of the contest. But of course I do understand if you do not find the time or the inclination.

          Thanks and good luck to you.

          Dear Adel,

          All my experience tells me that philosophical mistakes can only be found by your own thought. Here is a difference between philosophy and science.

          Thank you and all the best,

          Alexey.

          Dear Alexey,

          I am an engineer by trade with interest in physics, not a philosopher or anything fancy. I Just took a good guess which was very similar to other people's guesses like Wolfram(NKS), Conway and others, However my guess was just very successful in my opinion. This is exactly the lesson people could draw from the "effectiveness of math". It is for other people to evaluate my system and consider it as useful or not as it stand. There is also the possibility of improving it so it maybe more convincing, or somehow I would discover that the system is trivial and I would be happy to kill it and use my time to make more money :-) Sorry for wasting your time.

          Thanks and good luck.

          Dear Alexy and Lev,

          Thank you for an interesting essay.

          You write that there is no reason for the rules to be selected. In my essay I explain why some of the rules related to some of the phenomena are, in fact, selected.

          Thanks,

          Noson

            Dear Sylvain,

            Thank you so much for your contest reviews and reading advices. I really appreciate your help.

            Alexey.

            Dear Noson,

            Thanks for the compliment to our essay.

            We never say that "there is no reason for the rules to be selected". As you may read in our abstract, we rule out "the possibility for them to be randomly generated or selected". In fact, we are refuting the full-blown MUH of Tegmark on the grounds of the mathematical elegance, large scale and high precision of the already discovered laws of nature.

            You are saying that in your essay you "explain why some of the rules related to some of the phenomena are, in fact, selected." Your essay stresses the role of symmetry both for physics and mathematics. This is true, of course, but this truth tells nothing to the question why the laws of nature are symmetric and logically simple. Your essay does not even ask this question.

            Regards,

            Alexey.

            Even though the argumentation of the essay is clear, we find that many have a difficulty understanding it. Alexey has presented it at the Society of Philosophy in Fermi National Laboratory and recorded it on video. Slides and video are available here. Comments and questions are welcome there as well.

            Lev

            4 days later

            Dear Alexey,

            Dear Lev,

            I have carefully read your essay and I agree completely, with your chain of reasoning and all details.

            First of all, we never underline sufficiently that the mere presence of laws of natures taking mathematical forms does not explain anything. Within papers or discussions belonging to this contest, we can often read that mathematical truths are deducted from physical experience. But this, as you notice it rightly, does not explain how/why natural phenomena "behave" in the way that their "behavior" matches given laws. Hence there must be "something" doing that physical phenomena "behave" "law like" and not anyhow.

            I particularly appreciate your proof framework: On the one hand, the configuration of natural constants compatible with the emergence of life characterizes already itself by a probability infinitely close to zero. On the other hand, the finesse of fine the tuned universe is not fine enough to allow any experimental justification of phenomena satisfying WAP conditions. So, instead of formulating far-fetched hypotheses, it is better to see in more-than-fine-tuned-universe related phenomena the confirmation of this Pythagorean/Platonic faith which in turn had guided the approach of many physicists being at the origin of modern and contemporary physics.

            Your essay is courageous, very clear, well written and documented. I have just given it the highest rating.

            I would like to stay in contact with you even after the end of the contest to continue exchanges of ideas, knowing that there is still a lot of work in this domain.

            Good luck, best regards,

            Peter