Hi Eckard--

Thank you very much for your comments. Your grasp of the history of mathematical infinity is much better than mine. Your points are well taken: Discussions involving any type of infinity can be very vexing and emotional.

You asked why I took a light-hearted approach to the subject. Good question. I typically use humor whenever I take a position, professionally or personally, that is likely to provoke disagreement. The purpose of the humor is to try to defuse anger so that the disagreement can be analyzed on the merits. In my opinion, disagreement is absolutely essential for the sound operation of physics--but ad hominem attacks should always be avoided. Toward the back of my essay, I call into question the way in which many cosmologists use the concept of physical infinity. I figured that might provoke a heated response. I wrote the entire essay in a humorous way in order to defuse such potential unhappiness. Sometimes that strategy works--and sometimes it doesn't!

Best regards,

Bill.

Physics abhors infinity as something directly observed. This may not necessarily mean that the universe is finite. If the space of the universe is infinite, we are still prevented from measuring or observing anything out beyond a certain distance. Eventually everything is so red shifted the wave length is longer than the cosmological horizon length. I am not committed to the case that the space of the universe is R^3 or S^3, infinite or finite, but if the space is infinite we as observers are limited by the dynamics of spacetime so we can only observe a finite part of the universe.

If you go to my essay you might find some similar ideas. I discuss the prospect for superTuring machines that are able to compute beyond the limits of computability by first order λ-calculus. Certain spacetimes appear to permit this to occur, but these conditions are found in impossible places such as black holes. In some ways what you argue about Boltzmann brains is similar to the existence of superTuring machines. Both are able to compute infinite problems, and superTuring machines can even do this in a finite time.

Cheers LC

    Hi LC--

    Thank you for your comments. I agree with your sentiments, exactly, regarding the size of space. Sure, it could be infinite, or finite, for that matter. Perhaps, someday, we will actually be able to observe that space is finite, in the sense of, say, detecting some sort of torus-type topology or measuring K>1. On the other hand, our best theories may continue to point in the direction of infinity. But we would never know, for sure, because, as you say, "we can only observe a finite part of the universe".

    Best regards,

    Bill.

    The I^в€ћ of exterior spacetime is conincident with r_- in the Kerr-Newman spacetime. This physically means there is a piling up of null geodesics. As a result a set of qubits sent from the outside that compute an infinite problem can be realized by an observer as they cross r_- in this black hole. So a supertask might be solved here. This can be seen with the problem of flipping a switch every 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 ... of a second to ascertain whether the switch is on or off after the end of this sequence within a second.

    Of course there are some problems with this. This assumes the solution is eternal, which means no Hawking radiation. Also the r_- is a Cauchy horizon that has a type of singularity. This might not be survivable. I have been intrigued by whether these second order О»-calculus systems are signatures of black holes or event horizons that shield exterior observers from computing problems that circumvent Godel and Turing results.

    Cheers LC

    Hi LC--

    Your latest comments focus on super-Turing machines and the physics of super-tasking. I don't address these matters in my essay. However, I read your essay, and see that you do. I'm not quite sure of the etiquette here, but I think the best bet is for me to move to your essay threads and pursue the discussion there. In the meantime, thanks again for your comments here.

    Best regards,

    Bill.

    Dear Dr. Parsons,

    I do not wish to be disrespectful, but I do not think Boltzman abstract brains and Hilbert's abstract hotel have anything to do with how the real Universe is occurring for the following real reason:

    Do let me know what you think about this: This is my single unified theorem of how the real Universe is occurring: Newton was wrong about abstract gravity; Einstein was wrong about abstract space/time, and Hawking was wrong about the explosive capability of abstract NOTHING. Proof exists that every real astronomer looking through a real telescope has failed to notice that each of the real galaxies he has observed is unique as to its structure and its perceived distance from all other real galaxies. Each real star is unique as to its structure and its perceived distance apart from all other real stars. Every real scientist who has peered at real snowflakes through a real microscope has concluded that each real snowflake is unique as to its structure. Real structure is unique, once. Unique, once does not consist of abstract amounts of abstract quanta. Based on one's normal observation, one must conclude that all of the stars, all of the planets, all of the asteroids, all of the comets, all of the meteors, all of the specks of astral dust and all real objects have only one real thing in common. Each real object has a real material surface that seems to be attached to a material sub-surface. All surfaces, no matter the apparent degree of separation, must travel at the same constant speed. No matter in which direction one looks, one will only ever see a plethora of real surfaces and those surfaces must all be traveling at the same constant speed or else it would be physically impossible for one to observe them instantly and simultaneously. Real surfaces are easy to spot because they are well lighted. Real light does not travel far from its source as can be confirmed by looking at the real stars, or a real lightning bolt. Reflected light needs to adhere to a surface in order for it to be observed, which means that real light cannot have a surface of its own. Real light must be the only stationary substance in the real Universe. The stars remain in place due to astral radiation. The planets orbit because of atmospheric accumulation. There is no space.

    Warm regards,

    Joe Fisher

      Dear William,

      I loved your essay which managed to be both funny and rigorous at the same time. I also think your solution to the infinity problem was amazingly clever. Boltzmann Brains have always given my nightmares and your essay is now like a flashlight under the bed.

      Please take some time to check out and vote on my essay:

      http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/2391

      All the best in the competition!

      Rick Searle

        Hi Joe--

        Thank you for your comments. You are not being disrespectful at all. I don't think Boltzmann Brains or Hilbert's Hotel have anything to do with the real universe, either. As I wrote in the final paragraph of my essay: "And, no, Boltzmann Brains aren't running Hilbert's Hotel. There are no Boltzmann Brains, and there is no Hilbert's Hotel, because there is no such thing a physical infinity".

        Best regards,

        Bill.

        Hi Rick--

        Thank you very much for the kind words! I love the image of "a flashlight under the bed". Nicely said.

        I shall now skip over to your essay and give it a read.

        Best regards and good luck to you,

        Bill.

        Dear Bill,

        Thank you for not reporting my comment to FQXi.org as being inappropriate in order to have it classified as Obnoxious Spam.

        Joe Fisher

        • [deleted]

        There are some aspects of this in the literature. One paper critiques this. There are ways to non-Turing processing, and this is a discussion on interactive programming, similar to oracle Turing machines, that offers something interesting.

        Cheers LC

        12 days later
        • [deleted]

        William,

        This is a valiant effort to defeat physical significance of infinities of number and extent (as of space-time and its contents). However, the aspects of infinity considered most problematic in physics are actually those regarding what could be called intensity or density of energy etc. One example is the case of the QED infinities that are handled by the suspiciously kludges of renormalization, another is the compressed singularity of GR. Ironically, the first one is caused by aspects of quantum mechanics, and the other kind might be ameliorated by QM! Your thoughts?

          This surreptitious log-out is really getting annoying. I wrote the above comment, sorry. BTW thanks again for your comments at my essay. Note to any readers: my essay tries to make a true, specific contribution to physical knowledge (about why space is three-dimensional) and not just general points of principle.

          Dear Conrad,

          I liked much your essay, I gave it a high rate and I included it in the (second) list of best essays of my review. You seem to gather unanimity here, so I think the interesting question is: who would think otherwise (believe in physical infinity) ? You wrote in your comment that you "started out believing in physical infinity" yourself. Was it just a default position by lack of precise ideas ? Do you know any physicists having a firm belief in physical infinity ?

          If I had to express a bet with respect to cosmology, I would opt for the idea of a spherical universe, that I see as the simplest and most natural way a universe can be created. Indeed, I hardly see the sense and possibility of an infinite universe (how can it start in the first place ?), and I don't believe I have clones anywhere. So, since we already verified the surprising fact that the cosmological constant is extremely small (compared to its microphysical causes) but nonzero, I see it natural to expect a similar property for the curvature of the universal "geography".

          But the other question is that of the infinitely small. You seem to assume that nobody takes seriously the idea of a physical infinity in the infinitely small, as all we can measure is approximations. But I do think that there are many people whose views logically imply the existence of a physical infinity in the infinitely small, even if they are not ready to admit it. What I mean here is that they have mutually contradictory beliefs and they fail to notice the contradiction.

          Precisely, I see only 3 possibly coherent views with respect to the infinitely small:

          1) A digital universe, made of pixels (or the like), where continuous geometrical symmetries are only an emergent property.

          2) A quantum universe, where the (usually called "paradoxical") properties of quantum physics are accepted as actually describing how things are, and finally understood as not really paradoxical since they are the solution of this other paradox : the reconciliation of continuous geometrical symmetries with the absence of actual infinity in the infinitely small. This is achieved by the fact that the continuous symmetries (such as rotations of a local object) are not acting over an actually infinite list of really distinct states, but over the continuous values of probabilities for the system to appear in one or another state if it is measured. This means to reject physical realism, as the continuity of the transition between the possibilities for 2 states to be identical or distinct, means that there is no physical reality of which state a system exactly is in. I commented this further in pages 5 and 6 of my essay.

          3) A classical continuous universe, which logically means to admit an actual infinity of physically distinct possible intermediate states between 2 states. A typical example is Bohmian mechanics. Supporters of such views may hope to keep this compatible with practical finiteness, i.e. that this actual infinity only concerns the ontology that, at the same time, they wish to deny on an effective level, where it would behave as a potential infinity only. Namely, they expect the effects of the whole infinity of decimals of their "hidden variables" are not popping up in finite times. However I do not see it clear if they can really find a coherent theory satisfying that property and that would be compatible with known physics (quantum field theory). For details, see in my criticism of Bohmian mechanics, the section "Problem 2 : the nonsense of deterministic randomness".

            Dear William,

            I think Newton was wrong about abstract gravity; Einstein was wrong about abstract space/time, and Hawking was wrong about the explosive capability of NOTHING.

            All I ask is that you give my essay WHY THE REAL UNIVERSE IS NOT MATHEMATICAL a fair reading and that you allow me to answer any objections you may leave in my comment box about it.

            Joe Fisher

              Dear Bill Parsons,

              I agree that Hilbert's hotel is unphysical. But do you think that potential infinity is unphysical?

              Best,

              Lou Kauffman

                Hi Lou--

                Thank you for your question.

                Technically, I think that the answer to the question, "Is potential infinity unphysical?", depends upon how one defines "potential infinity". As I define it, I would say that potential infinity is unphysical. For example, one type of potential infinity involves math, such as N, the set of positive integers. Some say that this set is potential; others argue, actual. However, we can all agree that it is unphysical. Similarly, some people make statements like, "God is infinite love". I consider such statements to be a type of metaphysical statement; they may be debatable in terms of truth, but I do not see how they can be classified as statements about physical infinity. They are inherently unphysical.

                A trickier issue concerns potential infinities in physics. As I point out in my essay, we encounter potential infinities all the time in cosmology. I offer two fundamental points in this regard. First, many of these potential infinities are really mathematical or metaphysical statements (e.g., statements about some types of "multiverse") masquerading as physical statements. As such, they are by definition unphysical. Second, sometimes our theories really do seem to be telling us that, potentially, some aspect of Nature may be infinite in physical extent (e.g., infinite spatial sections). I argue that these types of potential infinity are neither necessary or useful physically. For example, do I really believe in physically infinite spatial sections in cosmology? Not only "No!", but "Heck, no!". Why? Because it is a long way from Here to Infinity--and I would bet all my money in the bank that something changes along the way. But, of course, this is just speculation on my part.

                I hope this helps.

                Best regards,

                Bill.

                Hi Neil--

                Thanks for your question. I agree that physical infinities have terrorized both QED and GR from the get go. Like you, I look forward to QM (or its follow-on) eventually solving the singularity problem in GR. As for QED, I see the research involving string theory, etc., as one extended exercise in defeating physical infinity. What they seem to have done is replaced physical infinity with a type of "Bravo". However, they have paid a high price for the eradication of physical infinity, in that they have a "Bravo landscape" on the order of 10^500.

                By the way, for anyone else reading this thread, I encourage you to read Neil's essay. I thought that it was excellent!

                Best regards,

                Bill.

                Hi Joe--

                I am happy to give your essay a read. Please look for my comments over at your post within the next day or two.

                Best regards,

                Bill.