" ...oh, wait...I mean what is the explanation for a physics definition. I really believe that you believe some axioms buried deep inside of these recursive identities that you really believe reveal some kind of truth."

This and of course the 'rabbit hole' device; very cute! I do recognize that you are certain of your position after much thought that proceeded meeting me. However, it is not clear from your responses, with regard to explaining what a physics definition is, that you understand that we are not debating your beliefs against my beliefs. Do you know that the explanation I gave is the historical explanation? Do you know that physics definitions have to be in terms of pre-existing properties and why this must be the case?

James Putnam

I really am not all that certain about my position...I am more certain about your position. Asking to explain a physics definition is tantamount to defining a physics explanation. In other words, you are asking a circular question.

You are not alone. Much of philosophy dwells on asking and answering circular question and I have have to admit, circular questions do have their allure.

Why are we here? Why are we here right now? Why is it us who are here right now and not someone else?

These questions all have their allure, but they are all circular and therefore have no unique answers. You can spend your entire life and some have answering circular questions. Now you have an historical explanation for a science definition. The bottom line is can predict the action of a source better than some other theory. Can you? If you can, you are a success...if you cannot, you must try a different tack...

This is my bottom line...

Steve Agnew,

I was just preparing to post a reply to your comment in the thread started by me. It was then I happened to see this one. So I thought I will reply this first. Quoting you, "Once again, without an agreement about the role of quantum phase in limiting precision, there is no sense in further discourse."

That is just an assertion; your discourse is "accept QM, there is no other way". But the game is open to all, until everything is explained. I think Classical Newtonian concepts with some modifications will be enough for explaining everything. So I argue that there is no (special) quantum noise, other than the classical noise extended to the quantum level; all quantum noises are as explainable as the classical noises. Even at the ordinary level, practically we do not know all the factors that are involved, even though theoretically it seems possible. At the quantum level, we cannot even say that there is a correct theory.

The concept of wave-particle duality is an attempt to understand the the factors involved at the quantum level. The wave-equations remain a beautiful mathematical tool. Surely QM has given some results. That does not mean it is 'the correct theory', and whatever is said is the ultimate truth regarding particles.

I propose that light is rotating particle-pairs in motion; and so it shows properties of particles and waves. Based on that, wave-particle duality is incorrect; the whole of QM then gets reduced to mathematical techniques that can extract some correct results.

Jose P Koshy

    "The bottom line is can predict the action of a source better than some other theory. Can you? If you can, you are a success...if you cannot, you must try a different tack...

    This is my bottom line..."

    Of course I can. You have in the past given the impression that you have read and understand my work. I don't think so. Perhaps you mean can I provide a calculation that has one or more significant digits than those of today's theoretical physicists? I don't do that. What I do is the reverse of what you appear to think is required by your own bottom line. I predict the action of THE source better than any other theory.

    James Putnam

    I have read and do understand your work. You have reformulated mainstream science with a set of algebraic equations that simply restate the principles of mainstream science. You have redefined certain words to mean something different than others are you are convinced that this means you have revealed some hidden truth.

    What you have done is simply used different words in slightly different contexts to obfuscate that what you have is simply reformulated mainstream science. And then you have done nothing with quantum phase and entanglement because that is evidently too hard.

    I really like the effort that you have done and do not like showing you the rabbit hole that you are in...but someone must. When you ask to explain a science definition you know that you are already in deep, deep trouble. Defining definitions is such a slippery slope...how about defining the definition of definitions? Let's see, how about defining the definition of the definition of definitions?

    All I can do is point out these conundrums and hope that you will see them. Otherwise you will be down in that rabbit hole a very, very long time...

    "I have read and do understand your work. You have reformulated mainstream science with a set of algebraic equations that simply restate the principles of mainstream science."

    What is my equation for photon energy?

    I use differential equations. I left out the details of calculus solutions. They were obvious and unnecessary. I removed the empirically unsupported intrusions of theoretical physicists from physics equations. I undid the first three errors of theoretical physics. I defined mass for the first time since it was introduced. The same for temperature. Those two alone repaired much of mechanics and thermodynamics. I don't believe you have read my work. What was it that Clausius discovered when he wrote his equations for thermodynamic entropy? Simple question for an expert to answer. When I use words they are precise in meaning following in the tradition of the physicists of the past. Are you having a disagreement with my use of the words empirical properties and inferred properties? What properties are involved when photons communicate empirical evidence?

    "What you have done is simply used different words in slightly different contexts to obfuscate that what you have is simply reformulated mainstream science. And then you have done nothing with quantum phase and entanglement because that is evidently too hard."

    I fixed the fundamentals of physics. Remember that you work with an undefined property of mass. And, that you work with an undefined property of temperature. Remember that the method of defining physics properties has always been to express a property in terms of pre-existing properties. Quantum phase and entanglement. I will hold back on quantum phase so you can have that victory. No I have not completely finished fixing physics. I ask you though, what property is responsible for maintaining instantaneous communication? Entanglement needs instantaneous communication between two particles with a common origin. So long as there is instantaneous communication, common attributes will survive even while they diminish in comparison to newly acquired attributes. No I haven't written about entanglement, but, I have written clearly and publicly about the existence of instantaneous communication. What did I say is communicated instantaneously always and everywhere throughout the Universe?

    Your messages are filled with generalities and lack the detail to show that you are familiar with my work.

    "When you ask to explain a science definition you know that you are already in deep, deep trouble. Defining definitions is such a slippery slope...how about defining the definition of definitions? Let's see, how about defining the definition of the definition of definitions?"

    The answer to the question: Please explain a physics definition? is precise. There is no slippery slope to it. The slippery slope belongs to those who ignore it. Imagine that theoretical physics has been developed far passed the fundamental stage and all the while not knowing what either mass or temperature are.

    "All I can do is point out these conundrums and hope that you will see them. Otherwise you will be down in that rabbit hole a very, very long time..."

    What you call conundrums must refer to these loose generalities that fill your messages. You have not been specific. I have provided many targets for direct shots. No matter how high you speak down to me from, you have not responded with meaningful answers. It can't get any simpler that asking: What is temperature? What is temperature?. You gave a very weak response in the past. Give a direct answer right from professional level physics.

    James Putnam

    I really appreciate your very thoughtful approach and all of the work that you have done. I agree that saying I understand the body of your work is probably a little too strong of a statement to make...

    You use many compounded questions in your statements and see nothing wrong with explaining definitions. You say that time has no definition since it is a duration that defines time...and what is a duration? Why of course, a period of time. You deny a definition of time, then use a synonym for time, duration, and then seem to claim that there is some hidden truth or meaning to defining time as time or a definition as a definition or any number of other conundrums.

    In fact, there have been many books written about such topics as the meaning of nothing and those writers are equally convinced that they have revealed some hidden truths about absolutely nothing. There are many math examples that show 0 = 0 or that 1 = 1 in very complex ways that seem to have meaning, but are much ado about nothing as well.

    Prediction of action is what is important, not explanations of definitions. You have used the deflection of a photon to define gravity. This is fine except for the factor of two needed to explain why a photon gravity is twice regular gravity. You do not even bother to mention this.

    Your theory of everything does not mention quantum phase or entanglement or decoherence. All your equations do is reformulate the existing algebra of classical physics. Since you cannot seem to see that simple fact, it is a very deep rabbit hole that you are in.

    What is temperature? Temperature is energy and energy is mass. Something that is hotter weighs more than something that is colder. Temperature is not hard since it is not axiomatic. The mass that defines temperature is hard because mass is what everything is made of and mass is simply something in which we must believe. Mass is simply mass, an identity. Likewise for action. Action has no definition and is a pure belief or identity. Action is simply action.

    These are axioms and are part of our self evident reality. You choose to use more complex axioms, but you also have a simple set of beliefs. There are a large number of different ways of describing the universe and as long as you predict action well, there is nothing wrong with your method. However, a simpler set of axioms is better and so matter and action are much better since they are simple and easy to communicate.

    You claim that quantum entanglement implies instantaneous communication between two observers, but all communication is limited by the speed of light. What you evidently mean is that quantum entanglement implies that classical cause and effect is limited between an observer and a source, which is true. However, that does not mean that two observers can communicate faster than the speed of light. Rather, it simply means that an observer cannot precisely know the cause of every action. Some causes in the quantum universe are simply unknowable by classical methods, but we still can predict the actions of sources pretty well despite the quantum limitations of what we can know.

    I need to talk with Stephen Andresen tonight. Also, Jose submitted excellent questions. So, to make matters easier for you, I will skip past your misrepresentations of my work and my meanings. I continue to trust that your responses are sincerely represented. I give you a couple of connected targets by which to expose my physics ignorance:

    "You claim that quantum entanglement implies instantaneous communication between two observers, but all communication is limited by the speed of light. ..."

    Your first easy target: No this is not correct. There is communication that is not limited to the speed of light. There are two such examples: One is that the regular measurement of the speed of light as C, under conditions that are shared by both the measurer and the light, requires instantaneous communication across the entire Universe; the second example involves gravity waves. Gravity waves are real and will produce effects that are felt at two different occasions. The first effect is instantaneous. The second effect travels at the speed of light. Both are gravity waves.

    That brings me to setting up your second target: There is no empirical evidence to support Einstein's Theory of Relativity. That is right: There is no empirical evidence to support Einstein's Theory of Relativity. I will begin with the obvious flaw: The Theory of Relativity depends, for its interpretation to be correct, upon the dilation of time and the contraction of space to be real physical effects. Correctness is determined by those effects being measured. There are no such measured effects; and, there is no empirical evidence to support either of these theoretical ideas.

    James Putnam

    Steve Andresen,

    Hi, It has gotten late. I will just explain why I say that there is no place in the Universe where the speed of light is really 'C'. Another way of saying this is there is no place in the Universe where length is not contracted to less than it could be. Object activity, the very thing that we substitute to serve in place of actually being able to measure time, is never quite as fast as it could be. The reason for these two effects to miss their ultimate mark is that that ultimate mark is unreacheable. It is unreachable because of the infinite extent of mass. The speed of light is regulated throughout the Universe. It varies, but it is controlled. It is the most important property in this orderly Universe. That orderliness is constant proof that fundamental unity exists. Fundamental unity is always the product of a single cause for all effects. Since physics is a mechanical interpretation of the operation of the Universe, I limit what I say to this: The variation of the speed of light is the cause for all mechanical effects. Measuring the ultimate speed of light, true 'C', would be like witnessing the end of the universe. What I mean is that there is never a time during the life of the Universe that the speed of light is not varying.

    Mass is the inverse representation of the variation of the speed of light for a single particle. Particles gather together and become complex assemblies of particles. Their masses combine together. As their sum of masses increase in magnitude, the speed of light for them locally is decreasing in magnitude. This is how I find that mass varies and, inversely the speed of light varies for a neutral atom: I don't think that mass begins as a singularity, but, I will let that be the case just for the sake of simplifying this description. If mass begins from a singularity, then it begins with a magnitude of infinity. Again, I don't think this is the case, but it simplifies the curve that the magnitude of mass follows as a function of distance from its center of origin. To be exact, it is mass that is the particle, meaning that a particle consists only of its ability to control the speed of light. Mass represents the magnitude of that speed inversely. So the particle is not made of mass, but, instead is a curve representing the speed of light beginning from its singularity with a speed of zero, and increasing its speed with distance from its singularity.

    The shape of the curve that the speed of light follows has a short length where it increases very rapidly. That length is approximately the radius of the hydrogen atom. When that length is reached the speed of light slows very rapidly giving the curve a knee where instead of rising rapidly it bends over until its increase in speed is very small with respect to distance from its singularity. The speed of light does continue to increase, but does so very slowly with distance. When two particles combine their masses, and therefore their control of the speed of light; their masses add together meaning that the two particles cause the increase in the speed of light with respect to distance to slow down. The larger mass becomes, the slower the speed of light increases. For an isolated particle, or an isolated combination of particles, the speed of light does not decrease, but the increase in the speed of light with distance approaches zero. That value of zero would only occur at a distance of infinity. The speed of light would approximately reach its maximum possible value of 'C' only if the Universe expanded to a size that could be mathematically treated as approaching infinity.

    The property of mass for protons, electrons, neutrons, or whatever is more complicated than this message indicates. So there is more to be said, but for a neutral atom of group of neutral atoms, this description is adequate as an introduction. My intent was to indicate in physically meaningful way why I said that the speed of light is never actually 'C' anywhere in the Universe. The speed 'C' is the ultimate maximum speed of light.

    James Putnam

    Probably more discourse will not be helpful, but I am forever fascinated by how people believe so deeply in notions that seem to me to have deep flaws. Naturally I include myself but mainstream science is really in a blind alley right now and your beliefs do not seem to help...nor do mine evidently.

    Needless to say, instantaneous communication is impossible and that is something that I don't even have to defend since it is self-evident...no has every done it.

    As for the theory of relativity...mass-energy equivalence (MEE) has so many far reaching applications that it is likewise hardly worth further discourse. Relativity does have its flaws and limitations, but the dilation of space and time are simply consequences of MEE.

    It is really matter and action from which space and time emerge and matter and action depend on MEE and the Schrodinger equation to predict the actions of sources. Without quantum phase, there would be nothing to hold the world together...

    You have your own spectrometer that measures the spectrum of a single photon. Somehow, though, your spectrometer cannot measure phase and amplitude and only measures the intensity or energy of the photon.

    My spectrometer measures both the amplitude and phase of a single photon and that allows me to calculate the photon intensity and energy that therefore agree with your spectrometer measurement. However, unless you can measure phase and amplitude with your spectrometer, you will not come to know the underlying reality of phase coherence, superposition, and entanglement.

    My photons also have mass...a very, very tiny mass...and the underlying reality of the universe is the mass of that discrete aether. The wave-particle duality is simply a restatement of the notion that particles are aether phase condensates while waves are pure aether phase. A photon is just the simplest aether condensate as a phased aether pair and so particles and waves are made up of the same basic stuff...aether.

    "Needless to say, instantaneous communication is impossible and that is something that I don't even have to defend since it is self-evident...no has every done it."

    It needs to be said that instantaneous communication is possible. It is always happening. The claim that it is impossible will have to be defended. What is self-evident is that the orderly operation of the Universe requires that it have a controlling property that is instantaneously communicated. Without it, the Universe would be disorderly. There has to be a reference upon which control is maintained. The entire Universe must be in communication with that reference. No I won't say in this message what that reference is, although I have stated it here at FQXi.org repeatedly. Your resistance is total. So is mine! I suggest that universal constants are evidence of immediate Universal communication. I understand that theoretical physics refutes miracles but accepts givens. The theoretically satisfying justification is to call givens natural. You have been given a Universe that is orderly and its orderly continuation requires immediate communication at the most fundamental level. You are witnessing immediate communication when you witness entanglement. But, there is more to see in immediate communication. In the case of gravity waves there will be, according to me, two waves. The first will be immediate and the second (No they will not be of the same magnitude.) will travel at the speed of light. How could that be true? Consider the photon and the constant C. This is not far out compared to believing that photons do not experience the passage of time, for which there is no empirical evidence. Think about it! Have an answer one way or the other that isn't just an evasive rabbit hole type of remark.

    James Putnam

    "What is temperature? Temperature is energy ..."

    Show the mathematics that supports this claim. " ... and energy is mass."

    Show the mathematics, not just putting up the letters 'M' and 'EE" which do not appear in mathematical equations.

    "Something that is hotter weighs more than something that is colder."

    So something that is proportional to another thing is that thing?

    "Temperature is not hard since it is not axiomatic."

    In other words, temperature is easy because it does not involve physics. Physics is a science. One does have to provide empirical support and put that support to work in equations.

    "The mass that defines temperature is hard because mass is what everything is made of and mass is simply something in which we must believe."

    This is not even theoretical physics. That is unless theoretical physics no longer needs to show the mathematics for its "beliefs". In that case,

    "Mass is simply mass, an identity."

    In other words, you don't know what mass is. You don't know because mass has never been defined. The physics method of defining properties has always been, and rightfully so, to define a property in terms of pre-existing properties. That way the empirical evidence tells you what you need to know about mass. The alternative is to not know. "Its an identity." It should be physics.

    "Likewise for action. Action has no definition and is a pure belief or identity. Action is simply action."

    Again, you are saying you don't know how to learn what action is? The methodology of historical physics, before theoretical physic is took rule, will show you how to learn what things are.

    So I haven"t done quantum phase because its too hard!? When I do it, it will follow the same practice I have presented in my work: Empirical evidence is a must and the mathematics is a must. Beliefs are for stuffing theoretical holes.

    James Putnam

    Classical physics as it is right now predicts action very well and reformulating classical physics is simply not that useful. There is absolutely nothing wrong with reformulating a nicely working theory, reformulation simply does not reveal any new truth. In fact, reformulation can obfuscate the simple truths with a lot of obscure math.

    You ask very simple questions and I give you very simple answers, but unless your axioms align with mine, we will always disagree. I make no claim that my axioms are the only way to formulate reality and in fact agree that there are many equivalent axiom formulations.

    Your theory has certain axioms in which you dearly believe and that is where you begin. You really believe in something that you call theoretical physics, which of course is simply a supernatural belief that you have about the nature of reality. Where does theoretical physics come from? Why does it exist?

    My universe begins with the simple axioms of matter and action and the mathematical theory is then simply a tool that predicts the future. Your universe begins with a belief in the complexities of some kind of math. Since you get to exactly the same place as the classical beliefs of mainstream science, it appears that your theory simple restates mainstream theory in a more complex manner.

    When I point that out, you seem to get upset. There are many equations for temperature, but the simplest is that T = 2 E/k per degree of freedom. For the classical empty box, there are three dimensions and so T = 2 E/3k. So temperature is always proportional to an energy, energy is proportional to mass, and so temperature is equivalent to mass. A source that heat up, weighs more. A empty box weighs more with photons inside.

    You keep stating the obvious that empirical evidence is a must and I could not agree more. However, at the basis of any well-founded theory lies unfounded assumptions or axioms or beliefs. This is true by Wittgenstein and by Godel's theorem and this is simply how the universe works...it begins with belief.

    Photons have both inertial mass as m = h nu /c2, as well as a very, very tiny rest mass as 2mae. That photons have inertial mass is shown by all physics. That photons also have a very tiny rest mass is something that science argues about. Since all sources in the universe are made up of aether, photons are made up of a phased aether pair.

    The aether particle mass follows from Plancks constant and the time size of the universe, mae = h / (2 Tu c^2) = G h mH^2/(2 q^2 10^-7)= 8.68e-69 kg. The time size of the universe simply emerges from the ratio of gravity and charge forces and so does the aether mass. So the photon is the charge action of the quantum phase of aether. Similar, the biphoton of gravity is the gravity action of a single aether particle.

    Thus, the aether mass fundamentally comes from the measurements of G and q, gravity and charge.

    I am guessing that the message that this excerpt is from might be directed to me. It is not possible to be certain because this statement has no connection to anything I have written.

    "You really believe in something that you call theoretical physics, which of course is simply a supernatural belief that you have about the nature of reality."

    I don't believe in theoretical physics. I remove the empirically unsupported intrusions into physics equations by theorists. Theoretical physics is not about the nature of reality.

    "Where does theoretical physics come from?

    It came into being when physicists decided to make mass an indefinable property. That first error of physics was a theoretical choice. The theory adopted was that mass was an indefinable property. This empirically unsupported act permanently removed fundamental unity from physics equations. The only cure that can bring fundamental unity back is to define mass and temperature and to remove the circular definition of electric charge.

    "Why does it exist?"

    It exists because physics has not cured its fundamentals. The quest for lost answers is filled with imaginative substitutes that lie outside of our ability to directly test them. It exists for a more general purpose as a quest to achieve unity. Since the fundamentals have not been fixed, fundamental unity cannot be regained. The substitute effort invents properties, dimensions, geometries, and

    nothings-that-become-somethings, all lacking verifiability by direct experimentation. Theoretical physics is a mathematical facade that prevents us from learning the actual nature of the Universe.

    If this message was not directed at me, sorry for the interruption of whatever conversation it belongs to.

    James Putnam

    If you don't believe in theoretical physics, then what do you believe in? You do not seem to believe in the universe matter and action the way that they are...

    I know that this argument is a little futile...

    Okay...you do not believe in theoretical physics and yet you do believe in a cure for theoretical physics in which you do believe very deeply. That then is the theoretical physics that I refer to...the one that you have cured and now believe in so fervently.

    But you then say that theoretical physics is a math facade...but before you said that mass was a facade. Look...once you try to define definitions you know that you are in a recursion of belief that will take you very deep into the bowels of misunderstanding and disbelief...

    Steve Agnew,

    Quoting you, "The wave-particle duality is simply a restatement of the notion that particles are aether phase condensates while waves are pure aether phase."

    Can I assume that this is 'your own' theory? Or is it an emergent branch of QM, with many followers?

    Does it take time for condensates to change into pure phase and back? Or is it simultaneity, as 'both dead and alive at the same time' similar to wave-particle duality?

    From where does the rest mass of aether come from? Does it have a mass or does it require Higgs? Or mass appears just in the measurement?

    Jose P Koshy

    Yes. Aethertime is my own interpretation of the universe in terms of the decoherence of a fundamental aether. Here are details: aethertime cosmology, how quantum gravity works quantum gravity, and why the aethertime concept is consistent with both charge and gravity.

    Aether is simply what makes up the universe and along with action, are the dual axioms that are the universe.