Causes, Goals, and Reasons: Clarifying the meanings of teleology by Dan J. Bruiger

Dear Dan J. Bruiger

great essay, getting at real issues of importance, and taking the philosophical context seriously. The kind of non-simplistic analysis we need.

Appreciated.

George Ellis

Dan,

Really good essay. I echo Georges comments. Conceptually built on the same footings as mine which I think you'll like, though I do get even more practical!

In particular I commend;

..the formation of the program itself can potentially be explained in causal terms, for example though natural selection of mutations.

While laws do not govern, a program governs because it is constituted to do so. In other words, while a law is an empirical generalization of observations, a program is a set of commands to achieve an end.

"mathematical laws" and "aims and intention" are compatible with each other insofar as they are alike expressions of human agency. But no further.

'...no aspect of nature can be exhaustively mapped'.

I applaud you sir. I'll also be very interested in your understanding, thoughts and agreement of mine, which may be a little more intellectually 'testing'!

Very best of luck.

Peter

With regard to identifying intelligent systems, you suggest autopoiesis with the caveat that there is a resultant limitation that intelligent systems must be self-producing. I couldn't help but wonder whether my measure for intelligent systems, nurturing capacity directed at the root element, would satisfy that criterion. I don't think so, since it does not reproduce. On the other hand, it does self-maintenance rather well.

On the Cybernetics work you are referring to, my guess is that it must be Ashby's Requisite Variety and Conant's Good Regulator theorem. I am not mathematically informed enough to judge my work in terms of their scholarship, but I am fairly sure the system satisfies 'homeostasis' as a condition.

Hi Dan,

I liked your essay and agree with its logic. I restate your conclusion in everyday language as: I can choose but I hate to say it, you are a machine.

You may enjoy my exposition of this...so check out my essay.

I rate your essay as one of the best.

Don Limuti

Dear Dan J. Bruiger!

I appreciate your essay. You spent a lot of effort to write it.

If you believed in the principle of identity of space and matter of Descartes, then your essay would be even better. I invite you to familiarize yourself with New Cartesian Physic

I wish to see your criticism on the New Cartesian Physic, the founder of which I call myself.

The concept of moving space-matter helped me:

- The uncertainty principle Heisenberg to make the principle of definiteness of points of space-matter;

- Open the law of the constancy of the flow of forces through a closed surface is the sphere of space-matter;

- Open the law of universal attraction of Lorentz;

- Give the formula for the pressure of the Universe;

- To give a definition of gravitational mass as the flow vector of the centrifugal acceleration across the surface of the corpuscles, etc.

New Cartesian Physic has great potential in understanding the world. To show this potential in essay I risked give «The way of The materialist explanation of the paranormal and the supernatural" - Is the name of my essay.

. Visit my essay and you will find something in it about New Cartesian Physic. Note my statement that our brain creates an image of the outside world no inside, and in external space. Hope you rate my essay as high as I am yours. I am waiting your post.

Sincerely,

Dizhechko Boris

Hi DJB,

I want you to ask you to please have a look at my essay, where ...............reproduction of Galaxies in the Universe is described. Dynamic Universe Model is another mathematical model for Universe. Its mathematics show that the movement of masses will be having a purpose or goal, Different Galaxies will be born and die (quench) etc...just have a look at the essay... "Distances, Locations, Ages and Reproduction of Galaxies in our Dynamic Universe" where UGF (Universal Gravitational force) acting on each and every mass, will create a direction and purpose of movement.....

I think intension is inherited from Universe itself to all Biological systems

For your information Dynamic Universe model is totally based on experimental results. Here in Dynamic Universe Model Space is Space and time is time in cosmology level or in any level. In the classical general relativity, space and time are convertible in to each other.

Many papers and books on Dynamic Universe Model were published by the author on unsolved problems of present day Physics, for example 'Absolute Rest frame of reference is not necessary' (1994) , 'Multiple bending of light ray can create many images for one Galaxy: in our dynamic universe', About "SITA" simulations, 'Missing mass in Galaxy is NOT required', "New mathematics tensors without Differential and Integral equations", "Information, Reality and Relics of Cosmic Microwave Background", "Dynamic Universe Model explains the Discrepancies of Very-Long-Baseline Interferometry Observations.", in 2015 'Explaining Formation of Astronomical Jets Using Dynamic Universe Model, 'Explaining Pioneer anomaly', 'Explaining Near luminal velocities in Astronomical jets', 'Observation of super luminal neutrinos', 'Process of quenching in Galaxies due to formation of hole at the center of Galaxy, as its central densemass dries up', "Dynamic Universe Model Predicts the Trajectory of New Horizons Satellite Going to Pluto" etc., are some more papers from the Dynamic Universe model. Four Books also were published. Book1 shows Dynamic Universe Model is singularity free and body to collision free, Book 2, and Book 3 are explanation of equations of Dynamic Universe model. Book 4 deals about prediction and finding of Blue shifted Galaxies in the universe.

With axioms like... No Isotropy; No Homogeneity; No Space-time continuum; Non-uniform density of matter(Universe is lumpy); No singularities; No collisions between bodies; No Blackholes; No warm holes; No Bigbang; No repulsion between distant Galaxies; Non-empty Universe; No imaginary or negative time axis; No imaginary X, Y, Z axes; No differential and Integral Equations mathematically; No General Relativity and Model does not reduce to General Relativity on any condition; No Creation of matter like Bigbang or steady-state models; No many mini Bigbangs; No Missing Mass; No Dark matter; No Dark energy; No Bigbang generated CMB detected; No Multi-verses etc.

Many predictions of Dynamic Universe Model came true, like Blue shifted Galaxies and no dark matter. Dynamic Universe Model gave many results otherwise difficult to explain

Have a look at my essay on Dynamic Universe Model and its blog also where all my books and papers are available for free downloading...

http://vaksdynamicuniversemodel.blogspot.in/

Best wishes to your essay.

For your blessings please................

=snp. gupta

Dan - An excellent and well-crafted essay, thanks. You have done a much better job than most at carefully defining your terms and constructing your arguments. I agree with most of your definitions, but am not fully convinced of your conclusion that goals are only to be found in autopoetic systems. However, we do agree that math will never capture the full complexity of the natural world.

I was intrigued by your comment that "nature programmed organisms to be self-programming." The follow-up question (and a theme in my essay The How and The Why of Emergence and Intention) is what programmed nature (e.g. Why is the world the way it is). I'd appreciate your thoughts if you have a chance to read it.

Cheers- George Gantz

"programmed" organisms to be self-programming

Dan,

2nd read time. You didn't respond to my post above. I apologise I can't now recall if you read & posted on mine as I've been a bit swamped. None the less I think yours should certainly be up in the 5's and am scoring it now as time is now short.

If you haven't read mine I hope you get to do so and comment.

Best of luck

Peter

Hi Dan, I really like what you have presented. It is no nonsense, clearly and efficiently expressed. Addressing the competition theme, and some of the suggested questions, with sound arguments. Very well done, regards Georgina