This definition of open world is with respect to entanglement swapping in the framework of ER = EPR. With cosmology there is no global means to define a time direction. A time direction is really a local structure as there does not exist a timelike Killing vector. Energy is the quantity in a Noether framework that is conserved by time translation symmetry. So if you have cosmologies with entangled states across ER black hole bridges (non-traversable wormholes) the only means one can define an open world is with entanglement exchanges. For instance the right timelike patch in a Penrose diagram may share EPR pairs with the left patch. In general this can be with many patches or the so called multiverse. There can then be a sort of swapping of entanglement.

I then use this to discuss the MH spacetimes and the prospect this sets up the universe to permit open systems capable of intelligent choices. Your paper takes off from there to construct a possible way this can happen.

Cheers LC

Hi Jochen,

You began by observing that "a stone rolls downhill because of the force of gravity, not because it wants to reach the bottom." In fact, life is almost defined by its ability to work its will against gravity. One might ask how this happens.

But your paper, on the homunculus fallacy is excellent. The main problem of representations 'using' themselves [thus somehow invoking 'intentionality'] is two-fold. First, there is usually an infinite regress hiding somewhere, and second, as you note in your essay, in the absence of one replicator, "it is not clear how the dominant replicator is selected in order to guide behavior." This is clearly a major problem.

Along the way quite strong assumptions are introduced:

"Suppose the system is simply capable of scanning itself, producing a description that then enables it to construct an exact copy." [Maybe, for strings of bits, but how scan ones 3D self?] Svozil addresses this. Even so, past the DNA level, it's difficult to envision "mapping all possible responses of an automaton to binary strings...".

Then one assumes producing "images of the world that are capable of looking at themselves - representations that are their own users." You "create mental representations (CA patterns) that are their own homunculi, using themselves as symbols." This strikes me as easier said than done!

I love automata. My PhD dissertation, The Automatic Theory of Physics dealt with how a robot could derive a theory of physics, [see my Endnotes] but, significantly, the goal was supplied from outside, leaving only the problem of recognizing patterns and organizing Hilbert-like feature-vectors. I made no attempt to have the robot formulate the dominant goal on its own.

You then ask that we "imagine the symbol to be grabbing for the apple." Despite that you presume "employing a replicating structure that interprets itself as something different from itself" [??] I have trouble imagining the symbol doing so. You've lost me. This is how you achieve "the symbol becomes itself a kind of homunculus."

The core of the problem, as I see it, is the concept of "the internal observer, the homunculus." In other words, an internal system must both model itself and understand itself. Your treatment of this problem is masterful.

May I suggest a different approach. In my essay I note that there experiential grounds for speculating that there is a universal consciousness field, a physically real field, that interacts with matter. This can be developed in detail [I have done so] but for purposes of discussion, why don't you willingly suspend your disbelief and ask how this solves your problem.

It allows a homunculus to model or "represent" itself (as pattern recognizer and neural nets can do] while not demanding that the device understand itself, or even be aware of itself. All infinite regress problems disappear, as does the need to explain how consciousness 'emerges' from the thing itself.

I hope you will read my essay and comment in this light.

Thanks for an enjoyable, creative, well thought out essay.

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Hi Edwin,

    thank you for your kind words, and for giving my essay a thorough reading! I'll have to have a look at yours, so that I can comment on some of the issues you raise.

    Regarding the selection problem, I think this is something my model can only hope to address in some further developed stage. Right now, my main concern is to show, in a kind of 'proof-of-principle'-way, that a pattern, or a state of mind, having meaning to itself isn't in conflict with a natural, physical world governed by 'mindless mathematical laws', as the contest heading stipulates (although I myself tend to think of laws rather as descriptions than as active governing agencies).

    Furthermore, the 'self-scanning' system is introduced as an example of what will not work: I (following Svozil) demonstrate that this assumption leads to absurdity. So, your intuition is right: there is no system (well, no 'sufficiently complex' system) that could simply scan itself in order to produce its own description. It would've made my life a whole lot easier if there were!

    Rather, the impossibility of this particular solution is what forces me to introduce the von Neumann structure, of a system with a clearly delineated syntactic and semantic aspect---copying and interpreting its own, coded description. So there's a system that simply has its own description available to itself; and if now this description is shaped, as I propose, by an evolutionary process such that the fitness function depends on the 'outside world', then this description contains likewise information about the outside world.

    Consequently, we have a symbol that has access to information that it itself represents, and that information is about the outside world (by mediation of sensory data setting up certain conditions within the internal CA-universe). In this sense, it is a representation that is its own user.

    Now, intentionality is contagious: your own purposeful behavior translates into purposeful behavior of, say, the car you drive. The car makes a left turn because you want to take a left turn. In the same way, if a replicator becomes dominant, it gets to control an organisms behavior---where I fully acknowledge that how it comes to be dominant, and how exactly this behavior-controlling works, don't as yet have a satisfying answer in my model.

    But suppose this works (and I don't believe that there are any other than technical problems in realizing this). Then, we have a symbol that to itself contains information using that information in order to guide movement---say, grabbing for an apple. That is, the goal-directedness of the action is due to the information the evolutionary process has imbued the replicator with---because it has a certain form, so to speak, it produces a certain action.

    Does this help?

    I'm going to have a look at your essay (but it might take me some time to comment).

    Cheers,

    Jochen

    6 days later

    Thanks for the clarifications Jochen. It's clearer to me what your account is addressing now.

    I think maybe the best way to phrase it is there's two separate problems: the homunculus problem and the problem of reference. The problem of error that you talk about in the paper is a subproblem of the problem of reference. I don't think your account actually addresses it (beyond you advocating for a narrow-content view). However, I do see how you're trying to address the homunculus problem of mental content in an interesting way. It might be clearer to separate those out in the future, so that way you can drill down on this notion of "autotelic symbols."

    Thanks for the interesting read!

    Erik

    Hmm, I don't really think these two problems can be usefully separated. Rather, the homunculus problem is a problem that arises in trying to solve the problem of reference---namely, trying to solve it by means of an internal representation immediately implies the question of who uses that representation as a representation.

    Consequently, such a naive representational account doesn't work; but if the homunculus problem didn't arise, then the account could do its job, and solve the problem of reference. Likewise, if the homunculus regress could actually be completed---i.e. if we could traverse the entire infinite tower of homunculi---the account would work, giving an answer to how reference works.

    But we typically don't believe such 'supertasks' can be performed; and that's where my construction comes in, replacing the homunculus with my self-reading symbols. If they now do the same work, which I argue they do, then this solves the problem of reference just as well as traversing an infinite tower of homunculi would have.

    Dear Jochen Szangolies

    Nice reply and analysis... have a look at my essay also please....

    Best wishes for your essay

    =snp.gupta

    As I said, you're right that have a relation, but they can also be separated. Accounting for errors in reference is different than the homunculus problem. In fact, I'm not even sure the homunculus argument needs to be framed in terms of reference - although as you point out, it can be.

    All the best,

    Erik

    6 days later

    The essay is well written and calls attention to von Neumann's self-replication construction that could have a relevant role in some forms of intentional behavior.

      Jochen.

      I must say I consider your essay one of the best here. I didn't find it difficult to read and it was spot on topis with some important points. The homunculus fallacy and regression are too little considered in the contest.

      I agree and also discuss the 'three-partite' relationship area, but suggest it seems to leave out the key element, whoever it was who turned a blank sheet of paper into a blueprint, and how. Perhaps you 'roll that in' to the drawing', but I think other important points emerge. Perhaps discuss when you've read mine?

      I also agree your points on mutation but ask; How?. Again I identify a mechanism in my essay which has the advantage of a classic analogue of QMs predictions to shed light on the smallest scale mechanisms.

      Very nicely written. I don't understand why your score is so low, perhaps it's n been trolled with 1's like mine? (three 1's without comment early on!)

      I look forward to discussing further.

      I certainly think yours should be a finalist and my score should help.

      Peter

        7 days later

        Jochen and Lee,

        Most enlightening thread. Particular the concept of a fixed point (you are here). The concept of a GPS for completing a goal is also valid.

        The mathematics is valid but behind this there needs to be a concept (notion) of self with a desire. Hmmm?

        Don Limuti

        Jochen -

        Thank you for working through an interesting problem in a very clear and thoughtful way. The argument is coherent and well-structured from beginning to end, despite its complexities.

        Since I take quite a different approach in my essay on the emergence of meaning, I'm afraid my comments here may not be very helpful in clarifying your theme - I've tried to make up for that by giving your essay the high rating it deserves.

        You understand meaning in terms of reference or representation, which is well-accepted -mainly because it has a kind of clarity that's otherwise hard to achieve. But of course there are many other ways for things to be meaningful - to "make a difference that makes a difference," in Bateson's phrase - without representing other things. You're right that to understand reference we need to include an "agent" as well as a sign and its interpretation... and the rest of your argument follows convincingly, on this basis. More generally, though, what makes things meaningful is the context of possibilities in which they may have some effect, that changes what can happen in other contexts. Such contexts are always complex, hard to represent symbolically. But I've tried to show they can be understood in terms of the functionality of three distinct kinds of recursive systems.

        Your argument about replicators makes a great deal of sense in a computational context. But the original replicators on Earth apparently faced a very different kind of challenge - they could by no means take for granted the existence of well-defined structures more complex than small organic molecules, and there were no blueprints or constructors available. So I suspect there may be basic limitations to computational models of biological systems, including the brain, where information-processing has to operate through interactions that are largely random, at the molecular level. Even in physics, I argue that the mathematical patterning serves a more basic function - that of selecting meaningful, i.e. measurable information out of a background of random events.

        Nonetheless, I find your point very interesting that computational self-replication is only possible through a two-stage process. As you know, von Neumann was also instrumental in developing the two-stage representation of quantum dynamics, which plays a role in my essay. I wonder if there's any connection between these aspects of his work?

        Thanks again for your excellent contribution.

        Conrad

          Dear ðÖð¥Ð...ðÁð¢ Szangolies!

          I invite you to familiarize yourself with New Cartesian Physic

          I appreciate your essay. You spent a lot of effort to write it.

          If you believed in the principle of identity of space and matter of Descartes, then your essay would be even better.

          I wish to see your criticism on the New Cartesian Physic, the founder of which I call myself.

          The concept of moving space-matter helped me:

          - The uncertainty principle Heisenberg to make the principle of definiteness of points of space-matter;

          - Open the law of the constancy of the flow of forces through a closed surface is the sphere of space-matter;

          - Open the law of universal attraction of Lorentz;

          - Give the formula for the pressure of the Universe;

          - To give a definition of gravitational mass as the flow vector of the centrifugal acceleration across the surface of the corpuscles, etc.

          New Cartesian Physic has great potential in understanding the world. To show this potential in his essay I gave The way of The materialist explanation of the paranormal and the supernatural . Visit my essay and you will find something in it about New Cartesian Physic. Note my statement that our brain creates an image of the outside world no inside, and in external space. Hope you rate my essay as high as I am yours. I am waiting your post.

          Sincerely,

          Dizhechko Boris

            Dear Peter,

            thanks very much for your kind words! (Sorry, by the way, in being so late in replying---I was on holiday the past week...)

            I think you correctly identify one of the main points where my proposal still needs work: as it stands, it's indeed not clear how, exactly, the selection process is implemented in the brain (if indeed it is). Mutation as such isn't that difficult: we merely need to stipulate that copying isn't perfect, which seems only realistic. But what decides which version is more fit with respect to the conditions the environment (ultimately) sets up?

            I'll certainly have a look at your essay; maybe you can help me out there!

            Regarding the score---yes, I've noticed a few unfortunate one-point votes without comment. It's a bit of a shame that people feel the need to resort to such practices, but with the voting system as it is, there's probably not a lot to be done right now.

            Cheers,

            Jochen

            Hi JS,

            I want you to ask you to please have a look at my essay, where ...............reproduction of Galaxies in the Universe is described. Dynamic Universe Model is another mathematical model for Universe. Its mathematics show that the movement of masses will be having a purpose or goal, Different Galaxies will be born and die (quench) etc...just have a look at the essay... "Distances, Locations, Ages and Reproduction of Galaxies in our Dynamic Universe" where UGF (Universal Gravitational force) acting on each and every mass, will create a direction and purpose of movement.....

            I think intension is inherited from Universe itself to all Biological systems

            For your information Dynamic Universe model is totally based on experimental results. Here in Dynamic Universe Model Space is Space and time is time in cosmology level or in any level. In the classical general relativity, space and time are convertible in to each other.

            Many papers and books on Dynamic Universe Model were published by the author on unsolved problems of present day Physics, for example 'Absolute Rest frame of reference is not necessary' (1994) , 'Multiple bending of light ray can create many images for one Galaxy: in our dynamic universe', About "SITA" simulations, 'Missing mass in Galaxy is NOT required', "New mathematics tensors without Differential and Integral equations", "Information, Reality and Relics of Cosmic Microwave Background", "Dynamic Universe Model explains the Discrepancies of Very-Long-Baseline Interferometry Observations.", in 2015 'Explaining Formation of Astronomical Jets Using Dynamic Universe Model, 'Explaining Pioneer anomaly', 'Explaining Near luminal velocities in Astronomical jets', 'Observation of super luminal neutrinos', 'Process of quenching in Galaxies due to formation of hole at the center of Galaxy, as its central densemass dries up', "Dynamic Universe Model Predicts the Trajectory of New Horizons Satellite Going to Pluto" etc., are some more papers from the Dynamic Universe model. Four Books also were published. Book1 shows Dynamic Universe Model is singularity free and body to collision free, Book 2, and Book 3 are explanation of equations of Dynamic Universe model. Book 4 deals about prediction and finding of Blue shifted Galaxies in the universe.

            With axioms like... No Isotropy; No Homogeneity; No Space-time continuum; Non-uniform density of matter(Universe is lumpy); No singularities; No collisions between bodies; No Blackholes; No warm holes; No Bigbang; No repulsion between distant Galaxies; Non-empty Universe; No imaginary or negative time axis; No imaginary X, Y, Z axes; No differential and Integral Equations mathematically; No General Relativity and Model does not reduce to General Relativity on any condition; No Creation of matter like Bigbang or steady-state models; No many mini Bigbangs; No Missing Mass; No Dark matter; No Dark energy; No Bigbang generated CMB detected; No Multi-verses etc.

            Many predictions of Dynamic Universe Model came true, like Blue shifted Galaxies and no dark matter. Dynamic Universe Model gave many results otherwise difficult to explain

            Have a look at my essay on Dynamic Universe Model and its blog also where all my books and papers are available for free downloading...

            http://vaksdynamicuniversemodel.blogspot.in/

            Best wishes to your essay.

            For your blessings please................

            =snp. gupta

            11 days later

            Dear Jochen,

            I enjoyed reading your essay. The problem of intentionality is indeed plagued by the homunculus fallacy as you described. I liked how you refer to Svozil's theorem and use von Neumann's constructors and replicators to propose a solution. Also the parallel with the immune system. And that you state clearly what open problems you see that need to be solved. Very good work!

            Best regards,

            Cristi Stoica

            The Tablet of the Metalaw

              Hi Jochen,

              Nice and clearly written essay. I was vaguely aware about the self-replicating machines of von Neumann, but I did not know that they we formalized using cellular automata.

              I like that your use of CA is very engineering/evolution oriented, rather than getting mired in the details of logic calculus or computability like so many others.

              Still a lot of details missing, like if there are any natural boundaries of such self-replicating patterns, or indeed what features are necessary for a pattern to count as a "CA brain". Also if mutation is involved, how much can the pattern change and remain the "same" brain?

              All the best, Miles Mutka

                Dear Jochen Szangolies,

                Thank you very much for your eminently readable and excellent summary on Von Neumann's cellular automata and the various implications of his work, forming much of the groundwork that is today considered to be "artificial intelligence". I wanted to let you know I particularly enjoyed the scope of your essay along with the appropriate rigorous grounding, and have rated it in the meantime too.

                Regards,

                Robert

                  Dear Conrad,

                  I don't know how I missed your reply earlier---sorry for that. And thank you for your kind words!

                  I agree that representationalism isn't necessarily the only way to get meaning out of some system; one could, for instance, also think in terms of subsymbolic approaches. Representationalism's main virtue, to me, is that if it works, it's completely clear how---by simply having some vehicle standing in place of some object or state of affairs. But of course, this direct route is blocked by the homunculus; hence, my attempt to patch things up. If that turns out not to work, it might be necessary to abandon representationalism altogether, and move on to something else; but since, to me, this seems to entail a certain loss of intuitiveness and clarity, I'm going to keep on digging on this ground until I'm absolutely certain I'll never strike gold.

                  I'll certainly have a look at your essay; maybe I'll find something interesting to say about it.

                  However, a point of clarification: I don't understand my model as being mainly computational; in fact, I'm skeptical of computational models. I know that usually CAs are thought off as a computational system, but that just means that they are systems that can be used to compute, not that they are intrinsically computational. To me, what's more important is the pattern, which is a physically real thing (an analogy to the pattern of neuron firings in a brain), and its properties. The meaning I see is the semantic information the pattern contains about itself, and about the environmental conditions. But that's not a point I wanted to put too much emphasis on in the present essay.

                  Anyway, thanks again for your comment!

                  Cheers,

                  Jochen

                  Dear Dizhechko Boris,

                  sorry for not replying earlier. Thank you for appreciating my essay; I will have a look at yours---however, I must confess I am somewhat skeptical that it needs a new physics in order to make sense of intentional, goal-directed behavior. But I will try and form an unbiased opinion of your work.

                  Cheers,

                  Jochen