Hey, this essay was fun! Short and written as a dialogue, what a pleasant surprise! Now that I think of it, I wish someone had posted a comic...

I am not sure of whether I follow your connection between free will and emotion. Do you mean free will is an emotion, among many others? Do you mean that free will derives from emotion? Or the other way round? As I see it, both the sensation of free will and emotion are emergent properties of some macroscopic systems. But are they causally connected? I get a bit lost here. For me, free will, and the subjective sensations, are more difficult than purposeness, that's why I focused on the latter...

I hope you win the contest.

ines.

    • [deleted]

    Hi Ines,

    1. Thanks for you review....much appreciated.

    2. You say "I myself argue that there are no goals per se, but that we choose to see them. Not exactly because their existence makes us happier, but rather, because their detection allows us to make predictions, and thereby, to be more fit to pass on our genes."

    Yea, Darwin and Dawkins have highly regarded points about how genes foster evolution and are selfish respectively. I will not argue with Darwin, however, Dawkins is wrong. Genes are both competitive and cooperative (see Yaneer Bar yam's work on complexity).

    Instead of using the words goals I will substitute "choice" and rephrase your sentence: ""I (Don L) argue that there are no goals per se, but that we (humans but perhaps not all life) choose to see them. These choices are made because they satisfy us emotionally, (in healthy individuals they tend toward happiness), and thereby, to be more fit to pass on our genes."

    About Choice and Emotions: I posted on one of mad max's minion's blogs "your emperor is totally nude (in Italian)". This minion was a determinist but his emotion (aka greed) caused him to delete my post (followed by my score plummeting). Was his choice determined by mathematics? This minion was much less fit to pass on their genes than someone like yourself.

    In spite of my stated intention, ha ha. I hope you win this contest.

    Don Limuti

    Hi Everyone in this contest & the people at FQXi.org,

    As this contest is approaching the end I wanted to thank everyone for making it possible. I appreciate the opportunity to investigate, agree and disagree with the theories and ideas presented in the many essays. I have been particularly critical of the mathematical universe hypothesis and Max Tegmark for creating and promoting it. There is no doubt that I could be wrong in this criticism of a new theory that is creative and original. And FQXi is to commended for exposing it to public scrutiny. This extra bit of conflict has made this essay contest the best one yet (IMHO).

    Thanks,

    Don Limuti

    Dear Don Limuti

    You found an original way to draw the attention to the issue of determinism, surpassing the size limitation of the essays!! It is clever, not boring, bold, risky, and it works! Congratulations!

    About determinism, what seems to result from observations is that at a sufficient large scale, the evolution of systems is deterministic. Chaotic, random, etc, behaviors at small scale always disappear at a sufficient large scale. This is a very convenient approach because it preserves our free will: at our scale, as at the scale of a molecule of the atmosphere, the behavior can be anything, while the evolution of human society, as the one of the atmosphere, at enough long times-scale, is deterministic. However, I have more information that shows to me that things are not simple, far from that. A careful reading of my essay will show you that necessarily I know much more that I am saying there. And what I say in the essay is already quite ahead of present knowledge, and many will thing that it is just speculation. What I can say to you from what I know is that the answer to the question of the determinism is not "yes", or "no", or "depend on the scale".

    You asked my opinion on the role of global warming. In the paper in vixra that I mention in the essay, you can see in detail the past and future of Earth's climate and where the global warming stands. I can also say to you much more by email, if you are interested.

    I saw your DWT; I found it rather interesting; I will dedicate some time to analyze it.

    I voted your essay in accordance with what I say in the first paragraph of this comment.

    Thank you for having "knocked on my door"!

    Alfredo Gouveia Oliveira

    Hi Don,

    I think I would have enjoyed a much longer conversation between you and Lexi. The presentation format was very attractive and fun for me. I might try it for a future essay. I will have to side with Lexi on this one, in the sense that I do think free will and decision making is deterministic, that does not mean we have to do the same thing under the same conditions every single time. There is a variability there without having to invoke the other extreme of total randomness.

    If you have the time, kindly take a look at my essay. I present (sufficient) physical conditions under which goal oriented agency could rise in systems.

    Cheers

    Natesh

      Hi Natesh,

      In my essay I hoped to get across how convoluted the language of determinism and freewill is. Don and Lexi each took a side. However, each also used Unconsciously the other viewpoint during the conversation.

      Yes we have differing viewpoints about determinism and freewill. I will agree that the physical is definitely a part of us. And figuring it out is a lot of fun and sometimes an addiction. I personally like to dabble in gravity. Check out my webpage www.digitalwavetheory.com

      In five previous contests, two of them were dialogs. The dialogs were much more fun to create.

      I liked your essay because it "really" forced me to think.

      Don Limuti

      Hi Don,

      Thank you for your comment on my page.

      You have written a nice little conversation but in the end I am not sure what your conclusion is.

      And why did you write Dad and not Don towards the end, was that intentional ? Who made that choice ??

      Cheers,

      Patrick

        Hi Patrick,

        My abstract was a quote from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Basically it said that we have made no progress in the free will-determinism debate. I tried to make my dialog reflect that inconclusiveness. I guess I succeeded :)

        About the Dad at the end. It was just a typo. Initially the dialog was between Dad and Lexi. Then I wanted to make it between Don and Lexi, but I failed to see the last Dad. There is a certain amount of noise in any information system.

        Thanks for visiting,

        Don Limuti

        *****Note to anyone seeing this post: Check out the Patrick Tonin essay. It is a short piece of logic that will make you grin.*****

        Dear Don,

        Thank you for virtual support through the cyber space on the article there are no goals as such its all play, and i totally enjoyed your little conversation with Lexi, your virtual self i suppose :)

        PS : We are relatively real but absolutely virtual.

        Love,

        i.

        Don

        I enjoyed your approach and conversation. My essay addresses my personal view of reality and goals by telling real life occurrences that helped to form and describe those views. You may appreciate a brief account of my own test of free will versus determinism--search to "owl" or "kitty"--

        Sherman

          Hi Sherman,

          Nice dialog of life.... causes, effects, direction, choices, puzzles, nature, beauty, danger, love.....Life even brings us mathematics which we use as a tool to examine life.

          And I was surprised to see another dialog, we are now a team :)

          Thanks for your science and art,

          Don Limuti

          Dear Don,

          That was a quick, fun essay! Wanting more, I clicked on the link at the end, read the section you pointed to and, following the footnotes, discovered Jenann Isamel's fascinating book, "How physics makes us free". Beyond reading the submitted essays, that's one of the most rewarding aspects of this contest: following the references at the end of the essays to discover even more weird/great/unbelievable/twisted/amazing ideas.

          Thank you, and good luck in the contest. And do write a longer dialog next time!

          Marc

            allo don,

            thank you for making me laugh. i gave you an 8 because your paper reminded me of a student who entered an Oxbridge Exam, with this horribly complicated and contrived question, where he thought about it, sat there for an hour, and wrote "Yes". then he sat there for another hour, crossed it out and wrote, "No". towards the end of the exam he crossed *that* out and wrote, "Maybe".

            He got an A for his essay and was accepted to Oxford :)

              Hi Marc,

              I am glad my essay did not take up all of your bandwidth :)

              Thanks for the heads up on: Jenann Isamel's book, "How physics makes us free"

              Your post made my day and more!

              Thanks,

              Don Limuti

              Luke,

              My essay was short....but not as short as [Yes---No---Maybe].

              This was a tough and ambiguous question, and I remember when I sat down and thought about what I was going to write, the first thought to occur was "This is nuts!"

              Thanks for your vote of approval,

              Don Limuti

              [Note to visitors: Visit Luke's essay and copy and paste from it.]

              Preserve existence and become part of something larger.

              тЬзPrтЭбsтЭбтЬИтЭб тЭКт'атЬРstтЭбтЩетЭЭтЭб тЭЫтЩетЭЮ тЭЗтЭб PтЭЫrt тЭ-тЭв тЭЩтЩжтЩатЭбtтЭдтЬРтЩетЭгт-▓тЭЫrтЭгтЭбrтЬзтЬ│

              Jeff,

              Thanks for voting for my short essay. I had to stop where I did not out of Laziness (although I am generally lazy) but because of a fear that I would butcher, a neat little essay that just happened by itself.

              I thought your essay was very good and voted so. See my comments on your blog.

              Thanks,

              Don Limuti

              Don

              A short and delightful essay.

              We observe billiard balls interacting, sharing kinetic energy back and forth to one another before slowing for table and air frictions. We coin the concept of determinism.

              We learn about particle physics interactions, and note that it is in many ways comparable to the billiards.

              We observe that life is made up of these objects comparable somewhat to billiards and wonder if because we are made up of deterministic parts, whether determinism equals our whole?

              This question is not so difficult in my mind. Billiard ball interactions are representative of a simple system, their shared causes and effects have the immediacy of the moment of contact.

              Life on the other hand is not a simple system, and it has attributes which the billiards do not. Such as being freed from the limits of reacting only with immediacy, by memory which allow past experience to be drawn on and influence now or future. Also freed from immediacy by the capacity to imagine possible futures and make choices that might best lead toward perceived needs. Something special happens when a system breaks free from the limit of immediacy of interaction.

              When a biological system can enter an environment and observe and rationalize many aspects of it, then make many abstract considerations based on experience of past and anticipations of future. Then from all this computed information formulate a plan that might allow for several possible predicted contingencies. Then you have a system that has become very distantly removed from the example of simple billiard interactions.

              But I guess nature might have just created a mindless unconscious computer type program and been done with it. And to a large extent that is precisely what nature has done, as exampled by the human sub-conscious. But somehow, and for some reason nature seated a conscious observer type system in a seat in front of the larger computing capacity of the sub conscience. And so here we are peering through our eyes as though they are windows on the world, and talking to ourselves and also listening to ourselves within the confines of our own heads, in conscious thought.

              So anyway, I feel that as soon as biology began its escape of the immediacy of interactions, it had begun migrating an ever expounding sliding scale that ends with infinity, towards choices and capacity for free will. Our experience exists somewhere along this scale, but probably not close to infinity, but also very far from being merely mindless billiard balls. So the answer is, free will does exist and is definable in terms of a sliding scale.

              If you recall, you gave my essay a very generous rating and review. Thank you kindly. I have had a look at the links you provided me to your work, and I do have some questions in mind for you. I did note your prescription for dark energy acting as gravitons. Very interesting indeed. I too believe dark energy observations are closely related to considerations of gravity. We must talk about this once the contest is concluded, if you will please?

              Great essay and I rate you highly

              Steven Andresen

              http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/2890

                Hi Steven,

                Appreciate your visiting my essay and your generous vote. And I am disappointed that your essay is not getting more traction. It is one of the best essays.

                Yes, let's discuss gravity. My website has my e-mail in the about the author section. It is don.limuti@gmail.com

                I should not have been able to make the calculation I made....something unexpected is going on. It would be really cool to see if we can create either a more complete theory or come up with some experiments that can be tried.

                Thanks,

                Don Limuti

                Don,

                I enjoyed reading your essay. It is the stuff of art. Just a smile, a wink and a soft nudge of thought. I too am enamored with the stage. Here is one of mine:

                (On stage there are two chairs for two students. A professor is standing in front of the chairs. At the beginning the students are in their chairs and a lecture is in progress. Both students have an open book and they are both looking at the same page.)

                Professor

                Yada...yada, yana, yada...da, da. Wa...wa...yayaya...yadanip...yadanip...la la...da!

                First Student

                Da, da, da...da.

                Second Student

                Yada, yada...da...yada.

                (Both students turn a page in unison.)

                First Student

                Yaya, yaya?

                Professor

                Yana, yana, nip...nip, wanip, wanip...da!

                (Both students close their books in unison.)

                Professor (cont'd)

                Now that we have finished the assigned chapter we're going to explore something outside of the textbook. For the next few minutes we're going on an intuitive journey. We're going to find the most important number in this universe.

                First Student

                How are we going to do that?

                Professor

                I'm going to ask you the questions and you are going to provide the answers.

                Second Student

                Are we going to change positions then? Are we going to be the professor and you the student?

                Professor

                No...as usual...you were not listening. I said that I will ask the questions and you will answer them.

                First Student

                That's not fair. This is just like a test...only; we haven't gone over the material.

                Second Student

                Is this actually a test? There was nothing in the syllabus about a test on this subject.

                Professor

                This is going to be a journey of discovery...so I'm sure that neither one of you knows the answer yet.

                First Student

                Do you know the answer?

                Professor

                I've already traveled this path. But we're having a problem taking that first step together aren't we?

                First Student

                Is that the first question?

                Professor

                We will begin when you are both sitting quietly; making direct eye contact with me and...put your pens down...this is an oral exercise.

                (Pause)

                Good...now the first question is...what is the most important number in the universe?

                Second Student

                I knew you were going to ask that question first.

                Professor

                Well...I'm waiting for an answer.

                First Student

                The most important number would have to be the smallest possible number.

                Professor

                Why the smallest number?

                First Student

                Because that's the number that would measure the elemental basic particle...the smallest thing that is the building block for everything that exists in our universe.

                Professor

                So the smallest number would also be the largest possible number when you sum their total.

                Second Student

                I don't understand that.

                Professor

                If the smallest number is the particle that builds everything that exists then it must also be the largest number when you count all of the particles that exist.

                First Student

                So it would be the most important number. It would be both the smallest and largest number in the universe.

                Professor

                Well maybe...but what other number could possibly be the most important?

                Second Student

                The number one. If you have one of something you have identified existence itself. The number one represents actual existence within the universe.

                Professor

                Yes, you could actually list everything that exists and they would be the ones in the universe. You could observe all of the ones in your environment and you could scientifically create the answer to the question...how does it exist? You can also increase its chances for survival within its observed changing environment. You can do all of this by studying the list of ones in the universe.

                Second Student

                That's really important. Survival is an absolute...if we don't exist we can't even ask a question.

                Professor

                Yes...survival is necessary but we're only answering the question of how does something exist when we're studying the list of ones. There's another question that preoccupies the human intellect. Why does something exist? We can't answer that question by studying the list of ones. Studying things that already exist will not answer the question of why they exist. But still, there have been many answers to the question of why that are based on observations of the list of ones. None of these answers have unified the human experience. They are all divisive.

                First Student

                We have limitations. There is a point in human understanding when we have to attach ourselves to terms of faith and authority.

                Professor

                That's because we still haven't discovered the most important number in the universe.

                Second Student

                You're right. We don't know the answer. What is the most important number in the universe?

                Professor

                There's another list of objects. In fact this list once included the list of ones.

                First Student

                So it is a changing list.

                Professor

                Yes...and it is a much larger list than the list of ones. The list of ones comes from this list.

                First Student

                So what does that list identify? Why is an object on that list?

                Professor

                Everything that exists must first come from this list.

                Second Student

                So if the universe was created...this is the list before the creation event?

                Professor

                Yes, this is the list of all objects, forces and relationships that could exist but do not exist.

                First Student

                I don't think I understand this. What is a list of objects that could exist but do not exist?

                Professor

                Take your current environment. Observe the objects in it then go back a thousand years and imagine a typical environment there. Are there objects in your current environment that didn't exist back then? And are there objects that existed back then that do not exist in your current environment?

                First Student

                Okay...so the list of objects that could exist but do not exist is actually the master list of all possible objects.

                Professor

                Yes and like the list of ones it has a number that identifies its existence on that list.

                Second Student

                And that's the most important number in the universe?

                Professor

                Yes...what number identifies the possibility of existence but not actual existence?

                First Student

                Well if I start out counting some object knowing that there could be some of them in the environment that I'm observing...and I don't find any of them...then my count is zero. So zero identifies the objects on that list.

                Second Student

                Zero is the most important number in the universe?

                Professor

                The list of zeros is the largest list. The list of zeros is the master list. It measures all of the possibility and potential within the list of ones and it has a physical existence within the environment of the list of ones.

                First Student

                There is something within our environment that represents...measures...all of the potential and possibility within our universe?

                Professor

                Yes, the dimension of space is the measure of all potential and possibility within our universe. Whether or not all possible consequences and results occur... the space is there to allow them to occur.

                Second Student

                But what good is a list of zeros?

                Professor

                It is the transition from the list of zeros to the list of ones where meaning is first attached to existence. The reason why an object exists is the reason why an object transitions from a zero to a one.

                First Student

                We create objects that didn't exist in the past. We build things that didn't exist in the past and we're ones creating other ones.

                Professor

                True...but you are taking ones and transforming them from one object to another object. You are not transitioning from a zero to a one.

                Second Student

                Still...what good is a list of zeros? We are already ones and everything we work with is already a one.

                Professor

                Yes the point is that before there was a list of ones there was a list of zeros. There had to be a transition from the list of zeros to the first list of ones. That's where meaning was first attached to the existence of a one.

                Second Student

                What created the list of zeros?

                Professor

                Now we are focusing on the correct list. The question of why do ones exist will be answered by observing the list of zeros not the list of ones.

                First Student

                How are we going to do that?

                Professor

                If you want to answer the question of why do ones exist...you will have to find a way to explore the list of zeros.

                First Student

                Are there different zeros?

                Professor

                Yes...

                Second Student

                The list of zeros was...if everything that exists transitions...evolves...from the list of zeros then the first act of creation was the creation of the list of zeros.

                Professor

                The list is only our model for understanding. The actual thing created was space. It will never be added to, modified or manipulated by anything other than God. The God thing that was created was space. From space everything that exists has evolved into a surviving reality.

                First Student

                But the creation of space does not answer why space was created.

                Professor

                God created space in order to create all possible objects, forces and relationships that are not a part of God. This is a nonspecific act of creation...everything possible was created.

                First Student

                Is this going to be on the test?

                Professor

                Not my test but your life itself needs the confidence of being able to understand that there is a step that will bring you closer to God...it is not a step forward...it is a step backward. In fact it is the distance between God and humanity that creates the potential for all of us to experience life as a self realizing individual.

                First Student

                How are we going to do that?

                Professor

                I have brought you both to a new frontier. How would you start exploring it?

                Second Student

                Is that a question or a challenge?

                Professor

                It will always be both.

                (Bell rings signifying the end of the class. Both students get up to leave.)

                First Student

                Is this going to be on the test?

                Professor

                Have a good weekend.

                Second Student

                You too...

                (Everyone leaves.)

                Irvon,

                Thanks for your new play and your support.

                Luke also sent me a play. A short one about a student pondering this essay question:

                Yes!....one hour........No!.......one hour..........Maybe! A little short but to the point :)

                Thanks for your plays.

                Don Limuti