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Hi James,

This is a great essay that takes a novel approach to the "tough problem". You make a very good case for convergence instead of emergence (that is clear and well written).

If you take a look at my essay you will see a very short dialog version of the "tough problem".

If you take a look at www.digitalwavetheory.com you will see how Heisenberg flubbed "uncertainty", and see a concept of discontinuity that I believe fits with your model.

It is so refreshing to see this essay. Thanks,

Don Limuti

    James,

    A very well written and interesting essay with an impressive and undeniably 'individual' analysis & interpretation of the present state QM. I agree your hypothesis is on the right lines and that currently perhaps; "spontaneity is the least biased interpretation of quantum phenomena. , and your two sound 'bookends';

    "..once the relationship between the two "worlds" is better understood and resolved, the nature of mind and the alleged anomaly of intentionality can become comprehensible and philosophically unobjectionable." and;

    " given a viable structural framework Nature could converge, and become focused and dynamic in individuality.

    I too disagree with Dennet who denies the observer/detector dependence also addressed in my own essay, and agree "...quantum events, if they are to be considered as they actually are, not ("indeterminate") as they are observed, and not associated with randomness, can best be described as spontaneous." Have you looked also at correspondence with continuous spontaneous localisation (the 'other' CSL!)

    However, you write; "..on the quantum level there is no evidence of influences that could be interpreted as provoking "randomness." If we get down to spinning sphere momentum exchange at some tangent point we get a 'surface' distribution of amplitude with latitude. You can even touch a sphere blindfold and answer if it's clockwise or anticlockwise. Now touch it at the equator. Can you answer? Forced answers may be random 50:50! I agree that's not current QM, but note the distribution with latitude is by the cosine, as (orthogonally) is surface angular momentum ..so should it be?!

    You write; "spontaneity suggests independent, uncaused behavior that expresses an inner dynamic. At the quantum level the dynamic may be so simple, and its means of expression so extremely limited, that there is no practical reason to distinguish it from "uncaused." Hmm. That sounds precisely correct, but do you suspect a 'reason' may actually exist, perhaps improved 'classical' understanding of quantum interactions (cognitive dissonance aside)?

    Anyway, great essay with some important analysis well written, and deserving a higher placing. Doubtless it's been 'trolled' with a few 1's (my 1's are now in double figures!) so my score should help.

    Best of luck in the contest

    Peter

    Hello Don

    Thank you for your comment. I have read and thoroughly enjoyed your refreshing essay, and I'll comment on it there. And I'm looking forward to reading digitalwavetheory.

    Thank you for giving me reason to smile! (Not to say an irresistible impulse!)

    Jim

    Hello Peter

    Thank you for your thoughtful and encouraging comments. Unfortunately, your rating seems to have been negated by another "1 bomb." (There needs to be some method to prove one's maturity before being allowed to rate essays!)

    Regarding the spinning sphere, can you give me a link to the full description of the experiment? Without knowing more about it, I'd suspect that given only two options, a 50-50 distribution would result whether by "randomness" or spontaneity.

    I'm gonna go read your essay....

      Hi Arnold

      I was really struck by this sentence in your essay, "Consciousness is not a system of extrinsic relationships; it is intrinsic, it has a subjective interiority." Wouldn't it be a reasonable conclusion to make from that assertion that it would be much easier to study/analyze an extrinsic form of intelligence as compared to an intrinsic one (since objectivity becomes less of a problem)? My essay is premised on the basis that the Constitutional nation state is such an extrinsic intelligence and it can be objectively understood much faster than our internal mental states which are inherently subjective in nature.

      This is in line with the extrapolations you make later on in your essay, "From quanta to atoms to cells to (neurological) animals..." However, the extrinsic intelligence I am referring to would require one more level of the process you described of individuals coming together to become part of a new whole.

      Regards, Willy

      "it would be much easier to study/analyze an extrinsic form of intelligence as compared to an intrinsic one (since objectivity becomes less of a problem)"

      Yes, it would. I ran out of space. Bees and ants would be excellent examples of a highly developed social intelligence. But a study of such extrinsic intentionality, although "easier", would seem to me to be derivative of its intrinsic nature, and if not explicit, it would necessarily be based on implicit assumptions. For example, is the intentionality of individual humans (e.g., libertarianism) more important than that of their society (e.g., fascism), and why so? The answer, I submit, depends on your "easier", implicit belief. Thank you, I'll look at your essay with that question in mind.

      James Arnold,

      The essence of your argument, it appears, is that consciousness emerges spontaneously (without any causal factors); and that 'such spontaneity' exists at the quantum level. I think you assume QM as the right theory; and you suggest replacing the 'randomness' in QM with 'spontaneity'.

      The two main theories in physics, QM and GR, are incompatible, implying that at least one should be wrong. I am of the opinion that the 'world-view' of QM is wrong, though its mathematical equations serve as useful tools. The mathematical laws make the quantum world deterministic. When there are more than one variable, mathematical determinism allows a 'set of possible actions', not just one. This may appear as randomness.

      For example, QM says, "An electron follows all possible paths. Out of the possible paths, some are more probabilistic." What does it mean? It means there are 'impossible paths', that is, maths allows only a set of 'possible paths' and the 'unknown causal factors' are more in favor of some paths. If there are no causal factors, all paths will have the same probability, and none of our computers will work. A computer works just because we can control the 'causal factors'.

      QM favors a 'randomness that cannot be explained' at the quantum level, though its equations suggest an 'explainable randomness'. This 'dual nature' of QM makes it unscientific (in my opinion). However, if the interpretations of QM are taken as correct, then the term 'spontaneity' is more suitable, because 'randomness' is closer to determinism, and 'spontaneity' denies determinism of any kind.

      Spontaneity, however, does not explain anything. Any physical phenomenon can be dubbed 'spontaneous', and we can refrain from explaining it. In metaphysics, it may sound great; but in science it has no value.

      Jose P Koshy

        Jose, I appreciate your engagement with what I've been contending here.

        You write that spontaneity "does not explain anything. Any physical phenomenon can be dubbed 'spontaneous', and we can refrain from explaining it. In metaphysics, it may sound great; but in science it has no value."

        I fully agree. But spontaneity has no value in science because science, when disciplined, when self-delimited to making observations that can be objectively replicated and confirmed, is outside its element in the consideration of spontaneity. Science is a discipline. If you want to delve into questions that go beyond experiment and objective evidence, you have to concede that you're going beyond science. Spontaneity cannot be observed within the bounds of science because science is bound to exclude the consideration of anything that might go beyond science.

        So if you're going to be a scientist, don't try to explain consciousness, and willfulness, and creativity -- precious capabilities that you experience and express in your innermost being. Stay with science, if that's where you want to reside. To do otherwise is to find yourself in the absurd position of denying your own spontaneity, creativity, and willfulness, which are not, and cannot, be objects of science, and which are not, and cannot, be either confirmed or denied by science because they are not proper objects of science. Do science, and look outward, or transcend science, and look inward.

        "Freewill is not doing what one wants, but selecting actions from the given options." But think about it, if you are willing to think about it, which is "by the way" not a scientific "thing" to be thinking-about: The selections in your everyday life are not necessarily taken from among given, accepted options, but when you are at your best, you can choose from the creative refusal to abide by the given options, and choose a creative unprecedented option you have freely chosen for yourself. And science has nothing to do with it; science should not try to have anything to do with it.

        James,

        My long conversation with Stefan on my string gives a complete run through of the mechanism (March 4). The video is here; Classic QM video or a compressed glimpse here; 100 sec flash vid.

        QM's 50:50 should arise from the random nature of particle orientation; around 50% will have north left and 50% right. But QM has a 2nd ('complementary') orthogonal distribution! which is what has confounded classical analysis. I show exactly where that comes from, how the 'Cosine' distributions arises, and also how they are 'squared' to give the full QM predictions!

        Of course I doubt any such advancement will ever be admitted as a new paradigm against such old well established doctrine as weirdness!

        You may have noticed by now that my essay is quite dense and you need to read it slowly and maybe more than once, in 'rationalisation' brain mode! But I'm certain you'll find it's worth doing.

        Sorry about your 1 bombs, I've just had my 11th! But the good news is I hadn't applied your rating so will do so now!

        Very best

        Peter

        Hello Peter

        Thank you for the information. Unfortunately, the links (http://https//vimeo.com/195020202 and http://https//vimeo.com/196031419) don't work. Can you double check them? I'll be glad to look at them and maybe reply on your page.

        It's hilarious -- after your nice rating I got another '1'. Imagine if trolls would apply their diligence to something positive!

        James Arnold,

        What I have stated about 'freewill' is related to science. What is 'freewill' based on science? To answer it, we have to consider the distinction between what we 'can do' and what we 'cannot do' (however much we wish). That is, there exits some restrictions; these restrictions are set by mathematical laws. Thus there is a 'set of allowed actions'. Freewill, based on science, is a mere selection from the 'set of actions allowed'. All living things and even some of our machines have freewill, the ability to select. This, of course, differs from the metaphysical view of freewill. I do agree that the domains of physics and metaphysics are different.

        Jose P Koshy

        I posted this reply to Peter on his thread, but am copying it here as it applies to the scientific critiques below as well:

        Peter, yours is a brilliant and fascinating investigation of the physics of learning, and of its potential for improvement, but being rooted in science, it lacks an appreciation of the meta-physics of transcendence, negativity, and creativity (not to mention teleology).

        I'll give brief examples, which seem so obvious and commonplace only because we possess these capabilities inherently: The concept of infinity cannot be learned, it cannot be defined (rendered finite), and yet we all have an intuitive (transcendent) grasp of what it means - we have a word for it! Negativity can involve a notion like "this situation is unacceptable, but an alternative can be imagined and may be possible." Creativity can involve the imagination of something that doesn't exist: The first hand-drawn representation of an animal, for example; we take representation for granted only because the original creative concept has been handed to us. (I go into these sorts of issues in more detail at http://jcer.com/index.php/jcj/article/view/453 .)

        This isn't to disparage the brilliance of your creativity, only to criticize your lack of self-appreciation!

        Okay, how do you explain the selection of an option that no one has ever tried before? If instead of fight-or-flight when confronted by the leopard, I decide to hand it a piece of the banana slug I'm eating?

        I'm adding here the more fully developed final sections and conclusion of the essay, which the contest length restriction did not allow:

        An alternative ontology

        For spontaneity to be recognized as a natural principle that both characterizes quantum behavior and induces consciousness, an alternative ontology must trace a coherent path between them.

        If we share a fundamental spontaneity with the quantum, and possibly other natural bodies, one common feature that seems essential is what can be thought of as unity, or wholeness, or individuality - because a spontaneous multiplicity would have to involve a diversity of direction. The quantum is considered to be an individual; it is by definition the most basic individual entity. The atom and the biotic cell, and of course a neural entity all fit the definition of individuality as well. As an exploratory hypothesis, these might be the nodes, or levels, where individuality is consolidated.

        We would also need to discover a connectedness between levels of individuality in order to establish a continuity from quantum to human. We've already seen that conglomerations of quanta seem to break the chain we're looking for: Sperry's wheel, a causal, deterministic object, constrains and nullifies the spontaneity of its constituents. But individuals at a given level can also combine as dynamic elements of structured, systematic aggregates - the biotic cells of a larger organism, for example. This could be the key to an ontological continuity: A conglomerate of spontaneous individuals will generally become mathematically predictable, and more strictly causal, the larger it is, but individuality at a new level can conceivably be created by the systemic, aggregate interactions of highly structured individuals at the already established level.

        Consider this simple model: Spontaneous individuals generally interact in chaotic ways. Some become constrained in conditioned or chaotic conglomerates, some become elements of structured dynamic aggregates. Structured aggregates may evolve into more complex and organic systems, and in some cases establish a higher level of unity. This new level would constitute larger, more complex spontaneous individuals, as cells do of atoms, and as animals do of cells.53

        From quanta to atoms to cells to (neural) animals, and all the aggregates that mediate and comprise them: This is the comprehensive, continuous ontological model that the concept of spontaneity can provide. It is a model of emergence, but it is an emergence of like-to-like, not object-to-subject. And it dissolves the distinction between mind and matter without reducing one to the other.

        Causation and Intentionality

        An important recognition afforded by the distinction between collectives (conglomerates and aggregates) and individuals - already mentioned abstractly in terms of the cue ball, but now framed in an ontology - is that causal effects are specifically characteristic of collectives. The behavior of individuals, being spontaneous, is to the extent that they are organized and effective (compare quanta to humans), intentional. And intentionality, although it can be causal in its effects, and can be influenced by systemic causes, is when highly developed, willful, and willfulness in-itself, is (because it is spontaneous) uncaused. Thus, in principle: Collectives are causal and produce effects; individuals are intentional, and have objectives.

        The terms "intentional" and "willful" may seem anthropomorphic when applied to all levels of individuality, but not if we grant that they are exercised in prior levels only as effectively as their structures allow. Evidence of non-human spontaneity must be sought to be found, and already, inadvertently, Martin Heisenberg's research has indicated that "evidence of randomly generated [spontaneous!] behavior" can be seen even in unicellular organisms (i.e., biotic cells) and fruit flies.54

        Emergence or Convergence?

        The ontology sketched here may be considered coherent and at least somewhat plausible, and yet it has been framed in terms of emergence - not the magical objective-to-subjective sort, but still, there is a discontinuity: Even the transition from systemic individuals to a transcendent individual - from the firing of individual neurons to human consciousness, for example - is a leap.

        I propose an additional aspect to this hypothetical ontology: that a more plausible explanation for what is conceived as emergence is convergence, not the constitution of wholes by elements, but the substantiation of elements by wholes.

        It is recognized in quantum physics that space isn't empty, it is roiling with "virtual particles." Given the insoluble problem with the idea of emergence, it seems more plausible that spontaneity is ubiquitous, even if not embodied. If provided a viable structural framework, the universal spontaneity of Nature could converge, and become focused and dynamic, in individuality. When, for instance, Nature is instantiated in a brain, it becomes what we experience as consciousness and intentionality, with its highly developed capability for creativity and willfulness. Thus, by a natural convergence, neurons by their interaction wouldn't cause consciousness, they would enable it.

        Even the transcendence involved in the instantiation of a new level of individuality needn't be considered abrupt, as it would be with an emergence of subjectivity from objectivity. We can see in the highly expressive aggregate spontaneity of human interactions abundant evidence of more-or-less transient convergences: In love, in culture - art, music, the sublimity of a choir, the eruption of applause - in collective prayer, in "national character", there is elementary, primordial individuation. Yes, it seems evident.

        Conclusion

        The present day culture of science isn't readily amenable to the non-deterministic notion of spontaneity being a fundamental principle, nor to the holistic idea of a universal nature that converges on structured systems to produce intentional, even willful individuals. But I submit that it provides a uniquely comprehensive explanation for consciousness and its natural place in our world. And ironically, however "metaphysical" it may seem to the disciplined scientific mind, it relieves science of the magical flights of theory that have been needed to account for human behavior.

        The most immediate relief offered by the ontology of spontaneity is it allows our subjective experience, so incompatible with the dogma of determinism, the potential for full affirmation. It can also be liberating for materialists from the dogma of determinism, and the strain of denying our most intimate sense of self, consciousness, intentionality and willfulness.

        James Arnold,

        It does not depend on whether someone has tried it before or not. It only means whether it is possible or not. You may come up with an entirely new idea at that time; but if it is not allowed by mathematics, you will not be able to carry out your idea. For example, you cannot just vanish into thin air or just turn into a horrible dinosaur and scare the leopard.

        Jose P Koshy

        Well of course anything that happens must be possible.

        You wrote "Freewill, based on science, is a mere selection from the 'set of actions allowed'."

        There are an infinite number of selections that can be chosen in any situation that would be allowable. Give me any number of possible selections and I'll give you one more. Where consciousness differs from a mechanical device is the exercise of creativity and willfulness -- the refusal to be limited by any given set of selections.

        James,

        I like convergence rather than emergence and spontaneity rather than randomness. The coming together of nature and consciousness you describe seems more unifying. I just wonder about the "medium" example you give of space roiling with "virtual particles." In our atmospheric world, do our quantum components converge from an environment of space? Maybe we need an Einstein thought experiment.

        My essay also speaks of the quantum meeting the macro but is perhaps less ethereal.

        Hope you have a chance to check it out.

        Jim Hoover

          Thank you for your comments, Jim

          The "convergence" concept was necessarily brief. I should have made it clear that the "Nature" that converges is everywhere, not just in "empty" space. I would like to elaborate on systematic aggregates as being more-or-less transient, amorphous, pre-individual convergences. Human aggregates, being combinations of highly advanced individuals, are illustrative: culture, a choir, even loving relationships bring an unconscious, amorphous Nature into being.

          I'll read your paper later today. Thanks again!

          James -

          An excellent essay, thanks. I'd be quite interested in discussing with you the contrast of spontaneity with intentionality - a key concept in my essay The How and The Why of Emergence and Intention. I would characterize spontaneity as the ability of an agent to make a choice that is not determined - yet intentionality suggests that choices are made that cluster behaviors around attractor states, yielding a physical reality that is anything but spontaneous in its structure and operations. Very interesting stuff!

          I did stumble over one statement you make - "given a precision-made coin-tossing machine and precisely minted coins, placed in a vacuum chamber and insulated from all outside influences, one can get heads 100% of the time." This is, of course, a deterministic process under the conditions described. But I think it quite a bit harder to know whether something we observe is deterministic or spontaneous, random or intentional. If you observe a large number of random coin tosses, man arbitrarily long string of heads can be found --- if one tosses the coins long enough. In my essay I use the metaphor of the 100 typing monkeys to test out that concept.

          Regards - George Gantz

            James,

            The contest is drawing to an end, and I am reviewing those I've read and am not sure that I rated. Yours I did on 4/1. Short memory.

            Hope you enjoyed the interchange of ideas as much as I did and still do.

            Jim Hoover