Dear Wayne Lundberg,

We do have different models of QED/QCD, while we do agree that geometric algebra is the most appropriate tool. But I'm not sure where you got the idea that my space-time diagram treats particles as point-like. My model of particles is extended in space, not singularities. My particle model is not really discussed or implied by my essay.

I'm thankful that FQXi invites all of us to contribute our ideas to this forum. I think we all benefit from these exchanges.

Best regards, Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear Robert Sadykov,

Your first paragraph describes a model of the electron that is extended and dynamic, and we agree on these aspects. Some details differ between our models, but, as you say, "the gravitational field has not one but two fundamental properties" [as shown in my equations (1)]. While I reject the non-intuitive 'space-time symmetry' of Einstein, I do believe that the non-linear self-interaction of the gravitational field interacting with ultra-dense particles is very difficult for our intuition to grasp. I have performed iterative calculations using Mathematica that show nonlinear effects to be significant.

Thank you for observing that

"The rate of time flow in different frames of reference can differ very much, but any two events that are simultaneous in one reference frame are also simultaneous in any other reference frame."

No one else has stated it that way!

Thanks,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear Boris,

My essay does not state that time is [the most] fundamental. It argues that the fundamental nature of time is universal simultaneity, which Einstein destroyed when he added multiple time dimensions to physical reality, essentially adding a "universal time" to every moving object of interest. You and others consider "the movement of physical space". In my thinking space is an attribute of the field, and it is the field that is dynamic, not space, per se. I think the field, through possession of energy, is "material", not space per se.

I will reread your essay and try to leave a meaningful comment.

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear Marc Séguin,

Thank you for reading my essay and comments.

You say

"It may well be that your interpretation does reproduce the observed results, but I would like to respectfully point out that Einstein's theory also does!"

You are correct that Einstein and I both derive the Lorentz transformation - he from two inertial frames, I from two different energies in one frame [my ref 12]. When applied to energy problems (such as time dilation) we should agree. This is analogous to different interpretations of QM [which share the same math] agreeing.

According to my reference 10 Einstein's 'space-time symmetry' effects [common terminology, not 'my' terminology] have never been measured. If light propagates in local gravity [a preferred frame, contradicting Einstein's basic principle] then this makes sense.

When one formulates the problem[s] as if two inertial frames [including separate times t' =/= t] exist, one arrives at paradoxes that require considerable pretzel logic to "explain". I've noted that Susskind advises one to "draw a space-time diagram" in these cases. That is consistent with the geometric nature of translating between two 4D frames.

My view is that Lorentz applied to energy is physical, Lorentz applied to transformation between two frames is geometric. If the two 4D frames are non-physical, the predicted results will not be seen [ref 10]. Energy phenomena are real and so calculations do match measurement.

You are correct that acceleration [implicit in GPS] does complicate the situation, further disturbing the idea of 'perfect clocks'. I will review the link you have graciously provided.

Thanks again for your well thought out comments and for contributing to this forum.

My best to you,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear jrc,

You ask a powerful question. Just as Feynman famously said no one understands QM, I believe Einstein claimed that no one understands the photon. I do have a 'picture' in mind that is compatible with equation[s] (1) in my essay. As I've noted on Avtar Singh's essay page, I believe he's correctly noted [his postulate I] the need for examining kinetic energy of the photon more closely.

To address this [the answer to your question] here in a comment is next to impossible. I don't handle FQXi equation formatting well, and FQXi doesn't allow figures to be inserted. Also, my arguments extend to the non-linearity of gravity, which is still not appreciated as meaningful by the majority of physicists. Key to the argument is that changing the ['weak-field'] equations to ignore non-linear terms [recovered through iteration] does not change the physical nature of gravity. The consensus appears to be that it does change the nature of gravity and so non-linearity can be ignored. I believe this to be a significant mistake.

It is not the 1/r^2 nature of gravity so much as the mass density dependence of gravito-magnetic circulation [hence angular momentum] that is significant. I formulated the equations to solve this and will attempt to solve and graph these using Mathematica, but that won't happen in this comment.

I don't think of "the nature of time ... argued on the back of light velocity", but rather as the dual of energy. Nevertheless, it is valid to ask what a photon "looks like".

You reasonably ask for "a wholistic panorama in the least technical terminology, of how it all comes together." I will try to answer in a continuation of this comment.

Thanks,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

con't - jrc's question about photon

Even as an assistant professor of physics, I once taught that the E and B fields of electromagnetic waves were 'out-of-phase' and their sum, ~(sin^2 cos^2) preserved energy across the vast reaches of space. When I noted the "in-phase" diagrams in my textbooks, I thought them mistaken, but quickly convinced myself that the Maxwell solutions do yield E and B in-phase with each other.

This means that (E^2 B^2) energy is max at one point in the waveform and zero at another. Thus as the waveform passes through a point, the energy of the point pulses from max to zero, and this repeats every cycle.

The equations (1) in my essay provide exactly the mass-energy density compensation needed for conservation of energy at every point the photon passes through. This only works when the non-linearity of the field is taken into account, and this is "non-intuitive". As I said above, I hope to solve and graph the solution, but it ain't gonna happen in this comment.

I also hope to prove experimentally that the velocity of "an inertial frame" can be measured entirely within the frame, which is forbidden in principle by special relativity.

I'm grateful for the "great deal of interest" in my essay, as I believe that both GR and QM are essentially mathematically correct, but both embed physical interpretations that are incorrect. The math won't change, but the interpretation of physics will, when physicists understand that mathematical projections onto reality are useful, but don't actually impart the simplified structure to reality. Most physicists welcome new ideas, especially math, but not many welcome reinterpretation of physical reality that invalidates things they have taught and published and that got them to their exalted state in life. Nevertheless, I believe this way lies progress.

My very best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear Steve,

I'm very happy to see you here, and your comment makes me even happier.

Stay well, my friend

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Thanks Ed,

The in-phase scenario is something I have also thought was overlooked. At the slow as a stone speeds of Faradays experiments, A and B are laterally at 90* but also at 90* out of phase in the axis of direction of motion. But as velocity increases the phase difference creeps (a-la Lorentz) to nil at light velocity and the only thing that distinguishes between them is the lateral right angle orientation. That goes to density varying inversely to velocity and a photonic cyclic pulse. (That was the basis of my model years ago, and of course requires a c (v = cycle peak periodic velocity) And once one thinks about it, the electric and magnetic fields would need to become identical orthogonally at light velocity or an antenna would fry! At light velocity Lorentz zeroes out the difference, not physically compound it. jrc

Edwin Eugene Klingman,

At one point I played with idea of making my essay one paragraph long, because "What can one do with fundamental?"

For the most part, I have not seen authors that were inspired by this topic. You have found inspiration! As a work of friction there are minor things that could be worked on like setting of place by using the senses (sights, sounds, feel and even smells). Your Physics did not convince me, but you stated your points well. There are other story type essays for this topic, but this shows you have grown as a writer.

You should do well,

Jeff Schmitz

    Ed,

    In a post above, you and JRC discuss how to represent a photon. I suggest the following:

    Psi = (c*t)i cos(theta)*[Ej Bk]

    where i, j, and k are unit vectors, theta = 2*pi*c*t/lamda, and Psi, c, t, E, and B have the usual meanings.

    Good Luck and Best Regards,

    Gary Simpson

      Ed,

      Oops ... I should add that the photon is moving in the i direction.

      Best Regards and Good Luck,

      Gary Simpson

      Gary,

      Glad to see you looking in. I think among the three of us we agree that gravitation to be realistically defined as a physical phenomenon, must be addressed in non-linear fashion. I personally go from an exponential 'stacking up', or 'deceleration', of energy into a self-gravitational spherical free rest mass. But that's not where Ed is coming from and I'm simply looking for a fit.

      I agree with Ed that 1/r^2 is insufficient. It can be treated as a near approximation in a straight line measurement that operates as a time independent invariance theorem similar in form to the time derivative invariance of the LT.

      Pardon the "A" in my previous post, I'm really bad about things like that. Poor discipline, and besides, who decided to denote "B" as the magnetic plane? I always think "F" for 'ferrous'. But that needs reserved for 'force'. I'm okay with "E" for the electrostatic, and elasticity. We just don't have enough glyphs to go around. Oh well.

      I can vaguely discern in your waveform suggestion that the cosine of theta would produce an amplitude, I am not trained mathematically to readily see things like that. And its each to their own, and if two different methods define the same process then its corroborative. Ed has a function he says he has yet to chart, but one must assume that its derivative of his global scheme of things in equating gravitational behavior with time dependent energy density.

      I personally think, an R4 model of EMR that is self-limiting to observed limits, and which would be directly transformative to to S3 would be essential to bridging Relativity and QM. And think where we can look for a theoretical absolute velocity is in the core values of a free rest mass. I won't tout my own thing, it has legs but ticklish spots on both Achille's Heels. But I will say that where my modeling fails in part is that I have never gone back and put the EMR waveform in motion. Realistically, a soliton with a 'Pinch Point' that Ed colloquially (I'm good with colloquial!) describes, should race along at c like when you shake the bends out of your good extension cord after dragging it around for an hour. You know, you look at which way the kinks are winding and walk it out straightish and start giving it circular little whips, and the uncoil loop snakes down the length to where it hits a carbuncle, and unlays it.

      Where I'm fuzzy about a gravitational mass interacting in a field of lower energy density, is not that the non-linearity in the mass would seek a greater field density to match its own density center, but rather how that non-linear field of lower density propagates from another gravitational mass among others in continually changing positions melding into the global system locale. That's got to be a lot of work. Good Cheer, jrc

      ...probably because that is the traditional interpretation. Since I construct up from a reductionist algebraic basis, the finite particle representation geometry is crucial. Not seeing any particle goemetry I assumed the usual.

      Anyway, I do hope we both benefit,

      Wayne

      Cristinel Stoica's essay is very relevant to points I have made above, so I show comments I made on his thread:

      Cristi gets off to a great start showing the isomorphism between 'number scrabble' and 'tic-tac-toe'. He notes that "in mathematics, isomorphism's are ubiquitous", mentioning that Euclidian geometry ~ axiomatics ~ symmetries ~ numbers/equations, for example.

      This supports very nicely my thesis that physicists project mathematical structure onto physical reality, and then come to believe that physical reality has that structure. While it is relatively simple for competent mathematicians to 'switch' from one formulation to another isomorphic formulation, the physicist who "freezes" the projected mathematical structure onto physical reality has a tendency to "see" reality is having that structure.

      For example, spins tend to align in fields such that statistically they are aligned or anti-aligned with each other in neighborhood/domains. Based on an over-simplistic interpretation of Stern-Gerlach data, Pauli projected a 'qubit' structure, O|+> = +|+>, O|-> = -|-> onto spin, despite that the SG data is distributed almost exactly as predicted by calculations of 3D spin traversing an inhomogeneous magnetic field. Based on Pauli's 'qubit'-based Hamiltonian, Bell 'believed' the qubit to be real and thus required qubit results: A = +/-1, B = +/-1 rather than variable deflection as seen in the data. The variable data satisfies Bell's relation which he claims is impossible to satisfy.

      In another comment Cristi states: "Because Bell's theorem is a theorem. Trying to refute it is like trying to find in Euclidean geometry a right triangle which violates Pythagoras's theorem. It is simply impossible." Of course Bell's theorem is a foregone conclusion, from his very first equation, in which he forces the only allowed data to be +1 or -1. There is no physics involved in this, simply an initial condition that is 'projected' onto the reality of spin.

      Thus Bell's 'belief' in Pauli's mathematical projection, causes him to reject 3D spin, which does satisfy ABcos(A,B), and to claim this impossible, leading to "entanglement" as a new mystery, on which thousands of papers can be written. This is compounded by "proofs" of Bell's theorem being conducted with valid two-state experiments, where the states are detection or not of photons.

      Finally, as Bell was forcing 'qubits' on spin, Feynman, who was in love with the two-slit photon experiments, realized that he could apply Pauli's 'qubit wave function' for spin in a manner analogous to the two-slit experiments and he applied this to SG, thus projecting 'superposition' onto spin. Although Feynman's gedanken experiments have never been tested, several QM texts now begin with Feynman's two-slit-spin analogy. Thus Feynman and Bell forced a 'mystical' view on spin and Aspect "confirmed" it with photon analogs.

      Once these giants froze the qubit projection onto reality, other isomorphisms go to hell. Isomorphisms are formalisms, qubit spin is (believed to be) physical reality! To seriously question this "reality" can be dangerous to one's career.

      I discuss qubits because the genealogy is so clear cut. I could've discussed iso-spin, in which Heisenberg replaced two real fundamental particles with an imagined particle with 'qubit-like' projections onto reality, etc.

      In my essay I treat another projection onto reality. Einstein, while basing his treatment on Hertz, projected a 4D-coordinate system with a new universal time dimension onto each moving object. The addition of new time dimensions (the physical 'reality' corresponding to the math structure) of course demolished time as universal symmetry and replaced it with "the relativity of simultaneity". This 'freezing' of the 4D-projection on the moving objects has lasted 100 years, despite the fact that the 'energy-time' conjugation in one inertial frame is isomorphic to Einstein's 'space-time symmetry' in two inertial frames, and agrees with all relativistic particle physics data.

      In similar fashion, one can derive Bekenstein's "holographic principle" in terms of energy alone, without ever conceiving of information. But the 'information' projection is now 'believed' by physicists, and the door is closed to isomorphisms.

      In summary, as long as the isomorphisms are mathematical, they are easily seen to morph into one another. But as soon as a mathematical structure is projected onto physical reality, it becomes "frozen" in the mind of the (consensus) physicist, and the fact that other isomorphic interpretations (such as 'classical' versus 'quantum') are equally possible are dismissed or rejected with almost religious fervor.

      Cristi wrote on Jan. 27, 2018 @ 11:32 GMT, that while it is natural to question non-intuitive physics, one has to move on in his career. Nevertheless, he says:

      "But I still think it is necessary to start by questioning everything, and you should never stop."

      I believe that if one projection that leads to non-intuitive 'nonsense' can be replaced by another isomorphism that is compatible with the real data, and yet makes intuitive sense, this change of isomorphisms should be made.

      So thank you, Cristi, for focusing on 'isomorphism' and 'fundamentality' as you have done. Your essay is well written and enlightening. Of course I agree with your proposition that geometric algebra is the tool we should be using. I hope my essay is read in terms of such isomorphisms.

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Dear Jeffrey Michael Schmitz,

        Thank you for your gracious comments and for the welcome advice to humanize the Tavern with sights, sounds, smells, etc. I may rewrite this using your advice for another venue (although there are few venues like FQXi).

        I've now read your essay, and agree with you about "the assumption that the rules of quantum mechanics apply to gravity waves and neutrinos, but we have no experimental evidence for this assumption." You might like to read my comment below [Feb. 20, 2018 @ 00:56 GMT] based on Cristinel Stoica's excellent discussion of isomorphisms.

        Thanks again for reading and giving meaningful remarks.

        My best regards,

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

        Dear Edwin Eugene,

        Thanks for your kind words in my Essay page. It is indeed nice meeting you again here in FQXi.

        You wrote a nice and provocative Essay. I have found very entertaining the issue that Einstein stayed in your tavern before coming in my dream. By the way, is the tavern keeper yourself?

        I am not convinced on Einstein's reply on the TK statement that "Light propagating in local gravity constitutes a preferred reference frame, contrary to your conclusions, Professor." In fact, in your Essay, Einstein replied that "But light propagating in local gravity would seem to break this symmetry." Instead, I think that Einstein should have preferred replying something like: "local gravity cannot exist because it generates a breakdown of the Equivalence Principle". In that sense, a local Lorentz frame (LLF) can be considered a preferred reference frame, because in a LLF the gravitational field is always null. But I think that Einstein's conclusions on the non-existence of a preferred reference frame underlays the concept of general covariance. In fact, even admitting the existence of multiple "universal times", it exists only a proper time and only a proper distance and both of them respect general covariance.

        In any case, your Essay was a nice reading. Thus, I will give you a high score. Good luck in the contest.

        Cheers, Ch.

          Thanks Edwin, it is nice,

          I try to stay well lol

          freindly, take care :)

          Dear Edwin,

          Many thanks for your thoughtful reply. I hope to be able to respond clearly to your comments.

          It is not that I believe a preferred reference frame can be defined by photons, but rather that photons are the experimentally accessible tool that we use to explore the properties of space, that it is in some sense the 'fiducial' one uses if seeking to establish the existence of 'local gravity'. In any case, imo there is no such thing as a 'preferred frame'.

          Glad to hear you're into quantum gravity. Please give me a reference, would like to have a look.

          Hawking radiation suggests that the 'Planck particle', the particle (for instance, a very small electron) whose Compton wavelength is the Planck length would radiate itself into one or more photons almost instantaneously.

          However, the Planck particle has an event horizon at the Planck length. Time is stopped there. Hawking pair production probability decreases with radius. Wavelength of what can be radiated is about a thousand times the radius of the observable universe.

          Point being that we are in the near field of the event horizon of the singularity at the core of every rest mass particle in the universe. Near field is a funny place, not well understood in QM, and where all the action is, non-linear, where energy transfer in frequency domain is possible.

          To go further would require to introduce the concept of impedance quantization. If you're interested please have another look at the essay.

          regarding GA and gauge groups, point there is that privileged role of gauge bosons goes away when wavefunction is expanded from point particle quarks and leptons to the eight fundamental geometric objects of the Pauli algebra of 3D space. They become just a few of the elements of the S-matrix generated by wavefunction interactions. The gauge group ends up being three (or four) copies of Cl(1,3) - the impedance representation (remember - impedances govern amplitude and phase) of the S-matrix.

          For all of that there is just a minimal amount of GA needed. Arthur's book is expensive, not in my budget. Used the look inside feature. Can see it might be useful to some, but my bucket list at this point in life doesn't include gaining the expertise to be found there. Pretty satisfied already with the model we're working with.

          i think this wraps up my response to your comments. Will address the essay in more detail in a new thread.

          Dear Edwin,

          Revisiting your essay yet again, feel almost ready to comment, so diving in...

          Much appreciate your gifted writing style, makes me smile. thank you.

          regarding non-linearity, and coming back to our thread on boundary between quantum and classical, if of such a mindset would insist that we confine our logic to the wavefunction and its interactions. A larger enterprise that what might be directly approached just yet. Point being that all quantum interactions are non-linear if the wavefunction is collapsed, and there is no communication of energy/information if it is not. At the quantum level gravity is not exceptional in this regard imo.

          the dialog still makes no sense to me. And gives the feeling that it takes great liberties with Einstein's mind, perhaps an unfair advantage given the beguiling beauty of your prose. Leaves me baffled with bullshit so to speak, tho meant with no disregard for the speaker.

          don't understand what is meant by 'local gravity'. Please define.

          at end of first page appears you postulate the existence of a 'medium'. Presumably this is 'curvature' of space. At quantum level there is no 'curvature', just phase shifts generated by quantized impedances. That's what impedances do - they shift phases. One cannot move EM fields around without exciting the vacuum wavefunction. Excitation of vacuum electron Dirac spinor is origin of 377 ohm free space impedance seen by photon. No curvature. This happens in flat 4D Minkowski spacetime.

          Back in 1990s Hestenes and the Cambridge crew demonstrated equivalence of GR in 'curved' space and gauge theory gravity in flat Minkowski spacetime, made clear how that got lost with the rest of geometric interpretation until Hestenes rediscovered and expanded.

          Point here being that this makes it straightforward to extend an EM wavefunction model in flat Minkowski spacetime to quantum gravity, just have to have the right quantum mechanic's tools.

          from there it explores gravito-magnetics. This is an effort i applaud, considered it once or twice myself but never found it compelling. I don't expect it will come easy to me, tho reminds me of electromechanical analog of the SHO.

          the problem for me is that it is a top down view, and requires a lot of diligent attention to fit all the pieces together properly. Very conventional in the sense one eventually gets thru Maxwell and arrives at a Lagrangian, but to be honest i'm still stuck back at local gravity and wondering what i'm learning about in the rest of it, and how it relates to fundamentals in the physical world.

          my view is bottom up, wavefunctions and their interactions. It took a lifetime to get there, was no room for most of that beautiful but for me irrelevant top down stuff.

          like what i see in your essay, but finding it overwhelming in the sense i can't tie it into a coherent picture that addresses the organizers' challenge. can you do that for me?

            Dear Christian,

            Thank you for your kind remarks and for reading my essay. In 'quantum gravity' I quote Ohanian and Ruffini:

            "Principle of the equivalence of gravitation and acceleration is true only in a limited sense. If rotational degrees of freedom are taken into consideration... then the equivalence fails."

            EEP ignores two things, tidal effects and rotation. One cannot replace gravity by acceleration if tidal effects cannot be ignored or if rotation cannot be ignored. In most cases the tidal effects can be ignored, but any principle that has exceptions is not a principle to bet one's theory on.

            Although I do not mention it in this essay, I have described The Nature of Quantum Gravity the behavior of gravito-magnetism for ultra-dense matter. For example, the upper bound on the radius of the electron is approximately ten to the minus twentieth meters. This provides a density factor of approximately 60 orders of magnitude, and possibly even higher. When one plugs this mass density into equations(1) of my essay, the gravito-magnetic circulation ( del x C ) becomes non-negligible, and this aspect of gravitation cannot be "replaced" by acceleration. Therefore the EEP is a useful conceit in certain instances but I do not believe it is fundamental.

            As I sit here, weighed down by gravity, I have trouble understanding the belief that mathematically projecting an "acceleration" on the body actually cancels local gravitational energy. Einstein's geometric equations do not handle the concept of local density well (if at all?) But the linear equations [(1) in my essay] imply the full non-linear equations, and they are based on momentum density, that is, mass density in motion.

            As for the concept of general covariance, there is no physics in covariance.

            I thank you for reading my essay and responding with thoughtful criticism. We do not agree on the central significance of the EEP. I see it as a useful approximation when gravito-magnetic and tidal effects are ignored. It says nothing real about "local gravity cannot exist."

            I address other related issues in neighboring comments on this page.

            As I remarked on your page, you have described, in very enjoyable fashion, a model of quantum normal modes of a black hole analogous to the atomic states of Bohr, and allowed Einstein to draw out various features that are addressed by your model. I am impressed with your analogy, and I am very glad that Einstein stopped by to see you after leaving the Tavern. It is always good conversing with you.

            My best regards,

            Edwin Eugene Klingman