Essay Abstract

Fundamentalism, the belief that there exists some irreducible basic truths in anything connected with nature, has existed for a very long time. But its significance as a distinct metaphysical concept has not been properly analyzed so far. FQXi now offers the rare opportunity for this. This essay is an attempt to formalize 'a concept of fundamentalism', which can be defined as follows: "Any field of knowledge has some fundamentals, based on which everything in that field can be logically explained, and so by identifying the fundamentals, we can arrive at the truth".

Author Bio

Doing independent research in theoretical physics. Proponent of 'Finiteness Theory' an alternate model based on the hypotheses that motion (at speed 'c') is a property of matter, and force is reaction to motion. Finiteness Theory is a 'Theory of Everything', the first of its kind that presents a 'complete model' (the main stream, it may be noted, has so far proposed only 'incomplete would-be models' as Theory of Everything).

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Dear Dr. Jose P. Koshy,

In qualifying the aim of the 'What is Fundamental?' essay contest, Dr. Brendan Foster, the FQXi.org Science Projects Consultant wrote: "We invite interesting and compelling explorations, from detailed worked examples through thoughtful rumination, of the different levels at which nature can be described, and the relations between them.

Real Nature has never had any abstract finite levels.

I have concluded from my deep research that Nature must have devised the only permanent real structure of the Universe obtainable for the real Universe existed for millions of years before man and his finite complex informational systems ever appeared on earth. The real physical Universe consists only of one single unified VISIBLE infinite surface occurring eternally in one single infinite dimension that am always illuminated mostly by finite non-surface light.

Joe Fisher, ORCID ID 0000-0003-3988-8687. Unaffiliated

Hi John,

i enjoyed reading your essay. Your lines of reasoning are easily tracable in a systematic manner, since you define 'fundamental' as systematically, deterministically evolving processes of nature.

However, I cannot see why the anthropocentrical demand of knowing as much as possible together with the fact that there could unknowable things beyond our complete reach - which are at least equally fundamental than mathematics - should logically lead to the conclusion that physics has to be strictly deterministic at its very core.

If nature would be strictly deterministic at its core, you had no chance to write your essay the way you did - and I had no chance as to read it and comment it like I did. I think this is an inevitable implication of a deterministic worldview.

You now state that nature allows purposeful behaviour. In light of strict determinism, this would be a false statement, because there can be no purposeful actor which could be able to selectively controll some causal factors - in your framework all is deterministic and there is no choice for anything to select something (until you would introduce some causa finalis - which you want to eliminate with your approach).

If determinism would be equal to fundamentalism, your insight into that must have been given exclusively only by a deterministic natural process (facilitated by your brain and some environment).

Albeit it is true that your deterministic framework is, if ontologically true, a causally closed system and indeed has a self-confirmative dynamics, it would only seem to us that we have some choices which axioms about the fundamental level of reality we want to adopt, since they are all predetermined (and surely also the *change* of some of our axioms are predetermined).

Let's now presuppose that you change your view on an actor (observer) that should be able to selectively controll some causal factors - by realizing that this false induction was just a result of a deterministic (albeit highly complex) process in your brain - and no 'actor' really can change the course of events. Then this change in insight was not brought about by you, selectively controlling something, but again by nothing more than strict determinism.

The fact that you believe you can really make choices in this world is in contradiction to what your framework supposes. I think you can't have the cake here and eat it too. If nature is strictly deterministic, then you would have to re-interpret what we traditionally understand as mathematics. You had to presuppose that mathematics is a somewhat dynamical network, able to become aware of itself at some point of its evolution (or always was to some extent conscious) - and begins to somewhat discriminate between some consistent and some inconsistent parts of itself in a mechanistically manner - realized by for example *you*.

For arriving at a consistent scheme, you had to equal consciousness with at least some part of mathematics - to eliminate any real causa finalis. But this would only be an ad hoc assumption for the 'purpose' of eliminating such a real causa finalis. Stated differently: in your scheme, mathematics is able to be conscious and deterministically strives towards the conclusion that consciousness has no causal role. Hence, this kind of mathematics strives towards the conclusion that there doesn't exist any causa finalis within itself.

This would mean that the very dynamics of mathematics to become aware of itself and that there aren't any causa finalis happens itself without any causa finalis.

This is no wonder, since 'causa finalis' is defined as a free choice between some mutually exclusive alternatives. Mathematics has no such choice, it is a strictly deterministic system (albeit hard to trace in its details).

I think that albeit there could indeed well be some top-down mechanics and some emergent properties in nature, in your framework these terms only express our hitherto incomplete knowledge of the involved relationships. I cannot see how these terms are able to justify that dead matter is able to think about itself, other than just presupposing it due to the fact that there is consciousness that is indeed able to think about dead matter. The 'brute fact' that there is such consciousness is incorporated into your approach as a hint that determinism must be fundamental. However, I cannot see how subjective Qualia could be reconciled with dead matter other than stating that obviously dead matter, together with mathematics, is able to transcend itself.

If it is true that something can transcend itself, the question remains wether or not systems per se are able to transcend themselves in the sense that they can realize that they are only systems, built from axioms, inference rules and logics to come to an unequivocal output. I understand your statement that an emergent structure can purposeful control some causal factors in the sense that systems per se are able to transcend their own 'mechanics' (correct me if I misinterpret you in this regard). Nonetheless, if such a transcendental dynamics would be possible, this real purposeful behaviour in the sense of some ability to freely decide between some mutually exclusive alternatives doesn't anymore need to know and trace all relevant causal factors consciously to decide what suits its needs - otherwise it would again merely be a deterministic unconscious process, a process which does not 'trace' anything but merely evolves in a strictly deterministic manner.

So, if strict determinism is true, consciousness can never determine all the causal factors that lead to a conscious decision. It seems to me that such a strict determinism, contrary to the claim that it is able to identify and therefore know all causal factors that lead to a certain result, at the same time states that this can never be proven in principle (because tracing *all* causal factors by a causal observation changes the whole causal dynamics).

Finally, I conclude that your approach for complete knowledge contradicts itself, since such a complete knowledge is by no means achievable by the very framework you presuppose. Therefore I consider your framework as a coarse-grained description of what nature really does, a description which runs into difficulties when one tries to fine-grain it in the manner for example the different attempts to properly interpret quantum mechanics try to do it. Therefore I would say that reliable knowledge is another expression for the impossibility to gain an objective view on the fine-grained structure of nature. Reliable, complete knowledge about all causal factors involved in a certain dynamics is for me just an idealization, albeit a possible one, but not necessary.

It is thinkable that kinds of causa finali' are involved which we never can detect in principle, since there are many entropy states thinkable which are consistent with our hitherto known physical laws, but nonetheless we never can test whether or not a certain entropy state is the one and only that deterministically fits into the previous state of the examined system. Stated differently: how can you know that the entropy state of your coffee in which you put some milk, is, after having mixed both fluids, is indeed the one and only - in every detail - that has to follow a previous state of the mixed drink. The same seems true to me for the entropy of the brain. Since we don't know whether or not some causa finalis can in all cases be reduced to some physical causes - and we also do not know what physical causes are and how they operate at the most fundamental level - I think that until we finally have reached the level where we are able to exactly determine how causes work in detail to influence some entities, we should be open to the possibility that 'physical causes', intuitively understood in the traditional sense (particle exchange without further forces etc.), are not the whole story.

I generally tend to write longer comments, since I think that merely some lines of text do not suffice to fathom the essay contest's theme in a rigorous manner. Hope you nonetheless enjoyed my lines of reasoning.

Very good essay, since it operates systematically to at all being able to pin down some fundamentals amongst a plethora of rather subjective guesses, or at least shrink such a plethora down to a few coherent options.

    Should of course be Jose, not John - Jose, please excuse the mistake :-)

    Dear Stephan,

    Thank you for the long comment posted. I think that long comments imply that the person is interested in a serious debate.

    I think the difference between our viewpoints arises from how we interpret determinism. Determinism leads to a unique final state. That does not mean it follows a single predetermined path. It follows multiple paths, but ultimately reaches the unique final state, because of the deterministic nature of the laws of mathematics. It may pass through a number of unstable states. Neither the participating entities nor mathematics need know whether the structure formed is stable. If the structure formed is unstable, it just disintegrates. Only stable structures survive, and this ultimately leads to the unique final state which is highly stable. Since the end result is deterministic, I would like to call it a deterministic process, a deterministic environment leading to the final state .

    However the story does not end with the final state. The condition of the final state is crucial. The final state has to be a system as defined in my essay; it is stable as a whole, but inside it, everything remains changing, because none of the initial causal factors disappear. A deterministic environment (as existed before the formation of the final state) still exists.

    It is this deterministic environment that makes it possible for us to live and think. Depending on the emergent structures involved in the interactions, so many partially-stable structures like Earth, life, humans, highly developed brains, etc. emerge when the conditions are suitable. We humans alter certain emergent causal factors, creating an artificial environment,and as a result something new emerges. We call it our creation. But it is just another temporary structure allowed by the deterministic environment that prevails inside the universe.

    We cannot do anything we like, but can do certain things that are allowed by the causal factors and mathematical laws. A deterministic environment allows freewill to some extent by presenting choices between alternate paths, each path having a deterministic end.In a chaotic environment it is impossible for us to take any decision and implement it, because no path has a deterministic end. Probability equations can work only in a deterministic environment. Slightly altering Einsteins famous comment: God plays a deterministic dice and not a chaotic dice; the deterministic dice allows us 'some' freewill.

    Jose P Koshy

      Hi Jose, thanks for your reply. I conclude that if a deterministic environment (including the brain) allows to some extent genuine choices between alternative paths, the outcome of such a choice cannot have been fixed by some previous deterministic state of such a system. So, what you call some freewill, the choice itself, is not itself determined anywhere in nature. Is this choice - according to your approach - defined as a random event (pseudo-random?) that cannot be traced back to something other or is this choice a real causa finalis that can be traced back to a kind of descriptive dualism, a dualism that is ontologically real in nature? Are there two effective causes in nature, the physical ones and the one that is only available for conscious observers?

      Dear Jose,

      as regards laws I'd like to play on your chess analogy. The termination rule of chess (checkmate) says that the game is over when the king can make no legal move. I found some numbers saying that there are some 1e43 potential configurations of pieces of which 1e34 are checkmate configurations. Let me for the purpose of discussion call this number infinite. Now, while the termination rule is an entirely unanschaulich prohibition (negation) in itself, it allows the observation of an infinity of actual checkmate configurations - when they occur! That is, only the negation of the negation 'produces' the actual case. So, I think there is a way from finiteness to infinity.

      Heinrich

        Dear Heinrich,

        In my opinion, the only way from finite to infinity is attaching a 'clause' for infinity. For example, 'go an adding finite numbers infinitely' takes us to infinity. In the case of chess, the number of possible configurations is a very large finite number as you have pointed out. You add the clause 'let us take this finite number as infinite', and a way from finite to infinite seems possible. Without such a clause, finite things always remains finite. It is just a logical argument; based on it, I will argue that there exists a finite number of finite universes in infinite space. If actually infinite number of universes exist, my inference is wrong. However, it is impossible for us to know that, and so I just depend on logic.

        Jose P Koshy

        Dear Stefan,

        The choice is always there. It only implies that there are more than one possibility, and depending on the environment one of the possibilities happen. When a freewill is applied, a slight change happens in the environment favoring one possibility, which sometimes may be the least possible one to happen naturally. That is, freewill does not create any additional possibility. Number of possibilities is deterministic and so the 'choice' is deterministic, whether freewill is involved in it or not.

        This choice, a deterministic event, can be traced back to the fundamentals. However the 'choice' itself is not a causal factor, it is an event caused by other causal factors present at that time. It is interesting to note that you expect the possibility of a dualism existing at the fundamental level. In the model of nature, I visualize, motion is a property of matter, and force is reaction to motion. That creates two opposite causal factors, motion trying to move bodies away from each other, and force trying to bring them closer. This can be regarded as a dualism present in nature, an acting causal factor and a controlling causal factor, both being real. Without this dualism, the number of possibilities is just one; if motion alone is there, everything moves away from each other and if force alone exists, everything binds together into a single lump. So it is the dualism present at the fundamental level that creates 'choice' or 'multiple possibilities'.

        An observer, conscious or otherwise, does not contribute any fundamental causal factor. The power to observe is an emergent property. So also is the power to control. The power to control exists independent of the power to observe. A conscious observer just utilizes these two to suit his requirements. So in my opinion, there is no dualism like 'observer related causal factors' and 'physical causal factors'. We and our creations do not represent the end of events; events continue uninterrupted. In my opinion, we are just a part of events that happens in cycles, each cycle taking only finite time.

        Jose P Koshy

        Dear Stephen I Ternyik,

        Thank you for going through my essay and for the comments.

        Jose P Koshy

        Dear Jose P. Koshy,

        You wrote in the Abstract: "Fundamentalism, the belief that there exists some irreducible basic truths in anything connected with nature, has existed for a very long time."

        Nature produced one single unified VISIBLE infinite surface occurring eternally in one single dimension that am always illuminated by mostly finite non-surface light millions of years before humanly contrived finite mathematical information ever became evident on earth.

        Joe Fisher, Realist.

        Hi Jose, thanks for your reply. Albeit i agree that choices are limited by the past and by the conditions of the environment, i have huge trouble to decipher what you really mean by 'choices'.

        You wrote

        "When a freewill is applied, a slight change happens in the environment favoring one possibility, which sometimes may be the least possible one to happen naturally"

        Could you explain what this slight change is, what you physically mean by such a change and how it comes about?

        Thanks!

        Hi John,

        It seems to me that both of us have started off at different points to arrive at a somewhat similar destination. Your analysis was crisp and fun to read; certainly among the best ones.

        How do you, however, propose to deal with the block put up by Gödel's incompleteness theorem? In this context, unless I have misunderstood, it seems to imply that no respectable system can be reduced to a set of fundamentals. (In fact, it is this apparent roadblock that made me take a different path to this conclusion.)

        Regards,

        Aditya

          Dear Stefan,

          I will just give some simple examples. Flipping coin and throwing dice provide deterministic, not chaotic, environment (because the possibilities are definite). In the former, choice available is two, and in the latter, choice is six. Because of the deterministic nature, we can calculate the probability of getting a certain result in both cases. Suppose we tamper with the symmetry of the dice to get a certain result nearly always, we are using freewill. Here, the game has not changed, all factors that affect it has not changed, but an asymmetry has been introduced as an additional factor to affect the result.

          Similarly, water flows downhill normally along an existing path. We can create a canal and change the path. Here by invoking freewill, we are not changing the law of gravity, but just utilizing a possibility offered by gravity, a possibility that always existed.

          I think my viewpoint (whether right or wrong) is clear to you.

          Jose P Koshy

          Dear Jose,

          I think FQXi.org might be trying to find out if there could be a Natural fundamental. I am surprised that so many of the contest's entrants do not appear to know what am fundamental to science, or mathematics, or quantum histrionics.

          Joe Fisher, Realist

            Hi Jose, thanks. Now i have a clearer picture of the usage of your terms. Choice is then everything that is not forbidden by the laws of physics, but choice is not identical (synonymous) with freewill, notwithstanding that 'freewill' itself is - if one believes in it - not forbidden by the laws of physics.

            Still I struggle with determinism in your framework. Do you adopt the quantum mechanical interpretation of the multiverse to make 'freewill' coherent with 'choice'? I think this must be the case, but I am really not sure, please pardon me. I only can precisely determine how you use your terms and what they mean to you by knowing what's the 'real' difference between 'choice' and 'freewill', since a river and parts of its environment may have 'decided' to take one specific path out of a certain range of other possible ones.

            Dear Aditya,

            What I propose is theoretical model-building based on 'fundamentals' and laws of mathematics. The fundamentals are either arbitrary or self-explanatory. That means these cannot be explained within the model built up from the fundamentals. As such we can say the model is incomplete in itself because it contains statements that cannot be proved from the model.

            The model-building is intended for acquiring knowledge. The model thus obtained is a system that follows laws. Here the terms fundamentals, knowledge, system, laws and completeness are well defined. Fundamentals are the primary-causes, knowledge is understanding the causal factors and laws, laws are mathematical statements, and a system is something that is finite, dynamic, deterministic and made up of quantized entities. The model is complete if the formation of the system (starting from from the fundamentals) can be explained using relevant laws of mathematics. Our knowledge in that field is complete if we can identify the primary causes, all emergent causal factors, and the mathematical laws applicable at all levels.

            So what we have is a 'defined completeness'. Complete knowledge does not mean complete predictability; we need not know all paths leading from 'the fundamentals' to 'the system', we need know just the main route. We need not know from where the fundamentals came or why they came. These are either 'not much relevant' or 'just impossible'.

            Jose P Koshy

            Dear Stefan,

            There are no separate laws for physics, economics, politics, etc. The laws applicable in any domain are laws of mathematics. Each domain has certain properties which may be fundamental or emergent; it is these properties that act as causal factors. Free will arises from the properties of matter. So in my opinion, the most appropriate statement should be 'freewill is not forbidden by the system (universe).

            When there are multiple possibilities, one of the possibilities happen. We can say that a choice has occurred. But prima-facia, we cannot say whether there has been any freewill action behind that choice. Only on continued observation can we come to an inference. If something contrary to the natural choice (which has the highest probability) happens in a statistically-relevant number of times, we can infer that freewill lies behind the choice. That is, freewill is also a choice, but an unnatural choice.

            Jose P Koshy