Oh, oh, its early in the morning and I need a coffee. Correction:

"Pythagoras found out that the mathematical music intervals of fifth, fourth, major third as well as the octave."

Pythagoras found out that the mathematical music intervals of fifth, fourth, major third as well as the octave harmonize with each other. Since these intervals mean small integer fractions, the latter are better suited to please the ear, because they have the least out-of-phase relationships, means every note's entire harmonic series involved in such intervals is more in-phase with with all other notes played according to these intervals.

I thought that what I posted in Terry Bollinger's forum is relevant to your essay as well.

Terry,

I've been mulling this over. If I accept the Kolmogorov (Kolmogorov-Chaitin) complexity as the ultimate foundation standard, let me understand:

You would have me believe that the world is fundamentally made of information bits that are algorithmically compressible. Okay, I'll entertain that notion.

Except that you used the example of Einstein, E=mc^2, to serve as a minimum Kolmogorov complexity, arguing that mathematical conciseness is the standard.

The equation, however, is not irreducible. The meaning of the equation is in the expression E = m. The second degree addition tells us that the relations in the equation are dynamic, that energy and mass may take infinite values. The binding energy then was discovered through experiment, setting a practical limit.

So I find myself moving ever closer to Brian Josephson's premise that meaning itself is fundamental. And meaning seems to be that which contains the requisite first degree information to "Be fruitful and multiply" as the Bible has it. So I suspect that meaning precedes construction. Or compression.

Enjoyed the essay.

Best,

Tom

  • [deleted]

Cumulative Coordination founded upon Dyadic and Triadic Relationships

My apologies for taking so long to produce this supplement to my essay -- it has been tricky deciding on the best way to formulate these rather intricate concepts, the eventual outcome being to a considerable extent informed by the approaches of Barad and Yardley. In the essay itself I took biology as the foundation, with biosemiotics (the use of Peirce's sign theory in the context of biology) as an essential mechanism underlying the effectiveness of biological processes. I have since realised (a) that a number of Peirce's ideas are relevant in a wider context than biology, and (b) as discussed in Barad's work, processes involving patterns of change feature in biology in a different way to how they feature in physical systems generally. The argument that follows begins with a discussion of Peirce's dyadic and triadic relationships, the latter being a somewhat unusual kind of situation, which does however naturally manifest in certain situations such as with Jupiter's satellites. Whereas the kinds of order studied in physics can often be characterised purely in terms of dyadic relationships, in biology triadic relationships play an equally important part, giving rise to dynamic phenomena of a radically different character, with a complexity rendering conventional kinds of analysis problematic, though other approaches appear feasible. The phenomenon of language appears to be explicable in terms of the concepts proposed here, providing a dramatic illustration of the power of the type of organisation that will be discussed.

Peirce's sign theory invokes two kinds of relationships between systems, secondness and thirdness, the former involving two systems exerting a significant influence on each other, and the latter a more complex situation where a relationship exists between three systems but not between any of the pairs. The latter is exemplified by the case of Jupiter's three satellites Io, Europa and Ganymede, between whose orbital phases there exists the linear relationship:

[math]$\Phi \equiv \lambda_{Io} - 3 \times \lambda_{Eu} 2 \times \lambda_{Ga} = 180^\circ$[/math]

The stability of this relationship against other influences present, such as that of Jupiter's fourth major satellite, Callisto, implies that the order involved in the relationship will emerge spontaneously should the three-satellite system at some point find itself in a situation where it is approximately satisfied. On the other hand, a sufficiently large disturbance could lead to a situation involving large deviations from the relationship concerned. The situation envisaged here is one where relationships are being continually formed and dissolved, with alternating stability and instability, leading to the emergence of constructs that are progressively more resistant to instability, and effective in their ability to stabilise.

Triadic relationships enter naturally in biology, as for example when a third element defining a process links the current situation to some desired state. Elementary computations of this kind can be concatenated into highly complex but effective computations, in which connection note that regular electronic circuitry makes use of systems of this kind, transistors with their three leads providing triadic relationships whilst other circuit elements such as resistors involve simply dyadic relationships. The idea now is that learning has as its basis systems settling into such triadic relationships. Two conditions must be satisfied before this can happen, that the required constituents be available, and that the process associated with the triadic relationship should support stability of the outcome. This may be thought of as a process of trial and error, changes continually being made until some error is resolved. The first requirement involves in principle a meta-process that determines which systems are active at any given time. It is here that significance arises, given that particular aspects of a given situation are relevant for success in that situation. These metasystems are the equivalent of the semiotic scaffolding of the approach of Hoffmeyer.

Two other aspects relevant to the understanding of the intricacies of the situation being addressed are those of the role of signs, and Yardley's concept of oppositional dynamics, which is related to Barad's intra-action. The latter involves two entities X and Y that cooperate to generate some specific process. Such cooperation is a consequence of the error-correction process discussed, involving a situation where, as the consequence of previous acts of error correction no further error correction is needed in the given situation. Thus if X is fixed then under certain conditions its complement Y can be built up over over time through error correction. This in addition provides a mechanism for replication, since if Y is fixed a complement similar to X can also be built up over time. Language provides an instructive example, X being the processes involved in producing speech and Y processes involved in interpreting speech. Here language learners have to learn how to interpret the productions of others (creating Y from X), as well as how to produce speech that others can interpret (creating X from Y), the criteria in both cases being that of success in whatever additional process is involved on the side.

One function of signs, related to the above, involves their potential role as proxy. This can be accomplished with two systems x and X linked in the manner indicated, so that a system related to an entity X becomes reversibly linked with a system related to the corresponding sign. The utility of signs lies partly in the fact that they form a comparatively stable aspect of a given situation that may be adaptable to many different situations by acting in conjunction with systems adapting to the context (this is the concept of code duality. In other words, the same sign x may linked to different Xs in different situations, an example of a triadic relationship (involving X, x and a system related to the context). Human language can be seen as an advanced form of this process, enhanced by syntactic mechanisms sensitive to relevant aspects of speech. This is all about the existence of mechanisms able to generate specific actions, and the fact that specific systems work together, supporting each other.

Yardley's circles can provide a useful general picture to help understand the above. A circle can be envisaged as an object, with a structure that supports an activity. This activity can create or manipulate other circles in ways discussed in detail, including moving from a state of affairs more in accord with a single entity and one more in accord with a pair of entities. Such close relationships between two entities can form a basis for the emergence of oppositional dynamics.

The above is essentially a sketch, intended as a starting point to encourage more detailed research by others involving more resources than those available to the author, starting perhaps with detailed specification of specific situations, and appropriate models, thereby testing the validity of concepts such as oppositional dynamics. Previously, a student working with the author was able to test ideas of mathematician Nils Baas in this way. On the basis of similar developments it should be possible to critique in detail proposals of authors such as Barad and Yardley. Ultimately one would hope to establish connections with current physics, and end up establishing the picture proposed here as a definitive extension of current theories in physics, including demonstrating its applicability to situations where mind and meaning play roles denied to them in current physics.

    Cumulative Coordination founded upon Dyadic and Triadic Relationships

    (resent in order for it to appear here with the actual author included)

    My apologies for taking so long to produce this supplement to my essay -- it has been tricky deciding on the best way to formulate these rather intricate concepts, the eventual outcome being to a considerable extent informed by the approaches of Barad and Yardley. In the essay itself I took biology as the foundation, with biosemiotics (the use of Peirce's sign theory in the context of biology) as an essential mechanism underlying the effectiveness of biological processes. I have since realised (a) that a number of Peirce's ideas are relevant in a wider context than biology, and (b) as discussed in Barad's work, processes involving patterns of change feature in biology in a different way to how they feature in physical systems generally. The argument that follows begins with a discussion of Peirce's dyadic and triadic relationships, the latter being a somewhat unusual kind of situation, which does however naturally manifest in certain situations such as with Jupiter's satellites. Whereas the kinds of order studied in physics can often be characterised purely in terms of dyadic relationships, in biology triadic relationships play an equally important part, giving rise to dynamic phenomena of a radically different character, with a complexity rendering conventional kinds of analysis problematic, though other approaches appear feasible. The phenomenon of language appears to be explicable in terms of the concepts proposed here, providing a dramatic illustration of the power of the type of organisation that will be discussed.

    Peirce's sign theory invokes two kinds of relationships between systems, secondness and thirdness, the former involving two systems exerting a significant influence on each other, and the latter a more complex situation where a relationship exists between three systems but not between any of the pairs. The latter is exemplified by the case of Jupiter's three satellites Io, Europa and Ganymede, between whose orbital phases there exists the linear relationship:

    [math]$\Phi \equiv \lambda_{Io} - 3 \times \lambda_{Eu} 2 \times \lambda_{Ga} = 180^\circ$[/math]

    The stability of this relationship against other influences present, such as that of Jupiter's fourth major satellite, Callisto, implies that the order involved in the relationship will emerge spontaneously should the three-satellite system at some point find itself in a situation where it is approximately satisfied. On the other hand, a sufficiently large disturbance could lead to a situation involving large deviations from the relationship concerned. The situation envisaged here is one where relationships are being continually formed and dissolved, with alternating stability and instability, leading to the emergence of constructs that are progressively more resistant to instability, and effective in their ability to stabilise.

    Triadic relationships enter naturally in biology, as for example when a third element defining a process links the current situation to some desired state. Elementary computations of this kind can be concatenated into highly complex but effective computations, in which connection note that regular electronic circuitry makes use of systems of this kind, transistors with their three leads providing triadic relationships whilst other circuit elements such as resistors involve simply dyadic relationships. The idea now is that learning has as its basis systems settling into such triadic relationships. Two conditions must be satisfied before this can happen, that the required constituents be available, and that the process associated with the triadic relationship should support stability of the outcome. This may be thought of as a process of trial and error, changes continually being made until some error is resolved. The first requirement involves in principle a meta-process that determines which systems are active at any given time. It is here that significance arises, given that particular aspects of a given situation are relevant for success in that situation. These metasystems are the equivalent of the semiotic scaffolding of the approach of Hoffmeyer.

    Two other aspects relevant to the understanding of the intricacies of the situation being addressed are those of the role of signs, and Yardley's concept of oppositional dynamics, which is related to Barad's intra-action. The latter involves two entities X and Y that cooperate to generate some specific process. Such cooperation is a consequence of the error-correction process discussed, involving a situation where, as the consequence of previous acts of error correction no further error correction is needed in the given situation. Thus if X is fixed then under certain conditions its complement Y can be built up over over time through error correction. This in addition provides a mechanism for replication, since if Y is fixed a complement similar to X can also be built up over time. Language provides an instructive example, X being the processes involved in producing speech and Y processes involved in interpreting speech. Here language learners have to learn how to interpret the productions of others (creating Y from X), as well as how to produce speech that others can interpret (creating X from Y), the criteria in both cases being that of success in whatever additional process is involved on the side.

    One function of signs, related to the above, involves their potential role as proxy. This can be accomplished with two systems x and X linked in the manner indicated, so that a system related to an entity X becomes reversibly linked with a system related to the corresponding sign. The utility of signs lies partly in the fact that they form a comparatively stable aspect of a given situation that may be adaptable to many different situations by acting in conjunction with systems adapting to the context (this is the concept of code duality. In other words, the same sign x may linked to different Xs in different situations, an example of a triadic relationship (involving X, x and a system related to the context). Human language can be seen as an advanced form of this process, enhanced by syntactic mechanisms sensitive to relevant aspects of speech. This is all about the existence of mechanisms able to generate specific actions, and the fact that specific systems work together, supporting each other.

    Yardley's circles can provide a useful general picture to help understand the above. A circle can be envisaged as an object, with a structure that supports an activity. This activity can create or manipulate other circles in ways discussed in detail, including moving from a state of affairs more in accord with a single entity and one more in accord with a pair of entities. Such close relationships between two entities can form a basis for the emergence of oppositional dynamics.

    The above is essentially a sketch, intended as a starting point to encourage more detailed research by others involving more resources than those available to the author, starting perhaps with detailed specification of specific situations, and appropriate models, thereby testing the validity of concepts such as oppositional dynamics. Previously, a student working with the author was able to test ideas of mathematician Nils Baas in this way. On the basis of similar developments it should be possible to critique in detail proposals of authors such as Barad and Yardley. Ultimately one would hope to establish connections with current physics, and end up establishing the picture proposed here as a definitive extension of current theories in physics, including demonstrating its applicability to situations where mind and meaning play roles denied to them in current physics.

    Presumably, the debate about the nature of reality would look very different if people stopped looking for answers "outside the universe": e.g. a God; a Platonic realm; a computer programmer who has programmed the universe; or a miraculous, seemingly self-explanatory from the point of view of physicists, algorithm that sits outside the universe and, for no good reason, except that it might be theoretically possible from the point of view of some physicists, exponentially creates squillions of new physically-substantial universes.

    Why is there the assumption that everything valuable - all meaning, all value, all "laws of nature" (and all possible numeric value outcomes for variables) - must have come from "outside the universe" due to the inherent nature of "outside the universe"?

    Why is there a problem in assuming that everything valuable - all meaning, all value, all "laws of nature" and numbers - have come from inside the universe, due to the inherent nature of the universe?

      Dear Brian

      If you are looking for another essay to read and rate in the final days of the contest, will you consider mine please? I read all essays from those who comment on my page, and if I cant rate an essay highly, then I don't rate them at all. Infact I haven't issued a rating lower that ten. So you have nothing to lose by having me read your essay, and everything to gain.

      Beyond my essay's introduction, I place a microscope on the subjects of universal complexity and natural forces. I do so within context that clock operation is driven by Quantum Mechanical forces (atomic and photonic), while clocks also serve measure of General Relativity's effects (spacetime, time dilation). In this respect clocks can be said to possess a split personality, giving them the distinction that they are simultaneously a study in QM, while GR is a study of clocks. The situation stands whereby we have two fundamental theories of the world, but just one world. And we have a singular device which serves study of both those fundamental theories. Two fundamental theories, but one device? Please join me and my essay in questioning this circumstance?

      My essay goes on to identify natural forces in their universal roles, how they motivate the building of and maintaining complex universal structures and processes. When we look at how star fusion processes sit within a "narrow range of sensitivity" that stars are neither led to explode nor collapse under gravity. We think how lucky we are that the universe is just so. We can also count our lucky stars that the fusion process that marks the birth of a star, also leads to an eruption of photons from its surface. And again, how lucky we are! for if they didn't then gas accumulation wouldn't be halted and the star would again be led to collapse.

      Could a natural organisation principle have been responsible for fine tuning universal systems? Faced with how lucky we appear to have been, shouldn't we consider this possibility?

      For our luck surely didnt run out there, for these photons stream down on earth, liquifying oceans which drive geochemical processes that we "life" are reliant upon. The Earth is made up of elements that possess the chemical potentials that life is entirely dependent upon. Those chemical potentials are not expressed in the absence of water solvency. So again, how amazingly fortunate we are that these chemical potentials exist in the first instance, and additionally within an environment of abundant water solvency such as Earth, able to express these potentials.

      My essay is attempt of something audacious. It questions the fundamental nature of the interaction between space and matter Guv = Tuv, and hypothesizes the equality between space curvature and atomic forces is due to common process. Space gives up a potential in exchange for atomic forces in a conversion process, which drives atomic activity. And furthermore, that Baryons only exist because this energy potential of space exists and is available for exploitation. Baryon characteristics and behaviours, complexity of structure and process might then be explained in terms of being evolved and optimised for this purpose and existence. Removing need for so many layers of extraordinary luck to eventuate our own existence. It attempts an interpretation of the above mentioned stellar processes within these terms, but also extends much further. It shines a light on molecular structure that binds matter together, as potentially being an evolved agency that enhances rigidity and therefor persistence of universal system. We then turn a questioning mind towards Earths unlikely geochemical processes, (for which we living things owe so much) and look at its central theme and propensity for molecular rock forming processes. The existence of chemical potentials and their diverse range of molecular bond formation activities? The abundance of water solvent on Earth, for which many geochemical rock forming processes could not be expressed without? The question of a watery Earth? is then implicated as being part of an evolved system that arose for purpose and reason, alongside the same reason and purpose that molecular bonds and chemistry processes arose.

      By identifying atomic forces as having their origin in space, we have identified how they perpetually act, and deliver work products. Forces drive clocks and clock activity is shown by GR to dilate. My essay details the principle of force dilation and applies it to a universal mystery. My essay raises the possibility, that nature in possession of a natural energy potential, will spontaneously generate a circumstance of Darwinian emergence. It did so on Earth, and perhaps it did so within a wider scope. We learnt how biology generates intricate structure and complexity, and now we learn how it might explain for intricate structure and complexity within universal physical systems.

      To steal a phrase from my essay "A world product of evolved optimization".

      Best of luck for the conclusion of the contest

      Kind regards

      Steven Andresen

      Darwinian Universal Fundamental Origin

      A Universe made of Mechanisms?

      The link to the reposted version of my comment that specifies my authorship is https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/3088#post_144879, if any one wishes to use it.

      There are interesting links between my essay and that of Philip Gibbs at https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/2960 on 'A universe made of stories', since every mechanism has a story behind how it works, and stories have underlying mechanisms. Note that in my stories the semiotic concepts of secondness and thirdness play a key role, in the same way that (as I pointed out) they do in transistor circuitry.

      I might add that in Barad's account stories also feature prominently and, again, biology is very much the study of mechanisms and their underlying stories, but note that mathematics plays a secondary role, in contrast to the subject matter of physics. In biological stories, changing shapes and relationships between shaps are important also.

      So there are a lot of connections worth following up.

      This all very much depends on how you define 'the universe'. For example, do you include what was there before the big bang, which has more right to be considered eternal?

      • [deleted]

      Dear Professor Josephson,

      Your thesis was well chosen and argued. I last year identified in outline a consistent bio process including intent, learning and mutation from a quantum mechanism in which you may be interested.

      I could 'pick', but as I agree about all (including your position with Jack) I have a more important issue for progress in that direction which I hope you may help with.

      The mechanism I identified last year, (simplified to rotating spherical momentum exchange) substituted Bohr's singlet states with one I show experimentally confirmed this year, equivalent to Maxwell's 4 states but specifically (I now find) the Poincare sphere; linear, but also orthogonal polar 'curl'.

      Running through a full multi element mechanistic process (ontology), shockingly it seems able to fully reproduce Dirac's equation and all QM predictions. (actually as Bell anticipated). I've found very few here able or capable of following the process (needing some quantum optics, photonics, geophysics etc) but it's far from impossible so I suspect you might.

      Declan Traill's short essay gives the matching computer code and key CHSH >2 Cos^2 plot with closed detection loophole.

      One changed assumption is the MEANING of the data. On momentum exchange the amplitude dependent orthogonal channel 'clicks' are saying 'SAME' or OPPOSITE'. As A,B fields rotate; 'Entanglement' then only has to be anti-paralell polar axes to solve the EPR paradox!! Non-integer spins emerges from concurrent y,z rotations (video available). Perhaps also see my (top scored) 2015 'Red/green sock trick' essay.

      Being semi retired I need academic support to progress the work. I'd greatly appreciate any you may give, initially by looking and reporting any flaws you see.

      Thank you kindly, and for your very agreeable essay.

      Peter

        Thanks for the insights regarding arXiv. I too have had many problems with them including submission holding and inappropriate reclassifications to gen-math. In other cases things have worked out better. My present strategy is to submit to viXra (which I admin with Jonathan and others) plus researchgate.net. This gives a me backup and gets a listing on Google Scholar who bar content on viXra.org. I would encourage anyone to use whatever repositories are available to them. ViXra is there because for many people there is no other option.

        On the point about mailing out daily lists of articles, this is very difficult for a small organisation that does not have the backing of a large institution with its own mail servers. Third party mail services and commercial providers of dedicated servers severely restrict our ability to post out daily mass mailings. This is a measure they have been forced to implement to stop email spamming. viXra can send out automated mail to confirm submissions but not much else. In any case most people read viXra papers after searching on Google and our download rates per paper are not very different from those of arXiv.

        Rather than meaning "existing for all time" in the sense of existing in time, I think that it would be better to think of "eternal" as meaning "independent of time". I think that nothing can ever really exist in time, because "time" is just a category of information that is derived from, or connected to, what we would represent as a discontinuous change of number information associated with a fundamental variable.

        I would think that the aspects of the universe that are eternal in the above sense are 1) creativity (the necessary causal aspect of the abovementioned discontinuous change (all change is seemingly discontinuous change)), and 2) the necessary "perceptive" aspect that somehow "knows about" that changed information.

        So I would think that at all stages of "the universe", including now, the early universe, the big bang, and "before" the big bang, the inherent nature of "the universe" includes creative and perceptive aspects. There is no necessity to look "outside" the universe for the source of "meaning", values, "laws of nature" or numbers.

        Peter, it looks as if you've been hit by the dreaded 'anonymising bug'. What is your full name, so people can locate your essay?

        Thank you for making this connection. The "universe made of stories" idea does need more structure to support it and turn it into a more concrete theory. Mechanisms could do that.

        It is common for scientists to see mathematics as something that exists in its own right independently of people, or even of physics. Nonscientists on the other hand are more likely to agree with the idiom in this essay that 'mathematics is something that nature does', or perhaps even just something that people do like art or sport.

        A reductionist would find these ideas inconsistent because everything has its place in the hierarchical tree, probably with mathematics at the roots and biology up in the branches. If reductionism is discarded then what you are left with is more like a web of ideas, with different combinations of truths implying other truths, but no first cause or most fundamental level.

        Brian,

        Dammit, It both logs me out and tells me I'm still logged in when I'm not!

        Peter Jackson

        And another bit of bad design is that when you refresh the web pages it adds postings one at a time and sends them out separately, instead of accumulating them in a file and then sending the file. This considerably slows down the refresh process.

        Further more things like italics and bold, as should be seen here, seem to have stopped working, even though they show up in the preview. Let's see if that is still so ...

        Dear Dr. Josephson,

        I enjoyed reading your essay. You beautifully discuss the nature of fundamentality and the intriguing parallels between the physical and biological domains. I agree with you on the point that the complexity and dynamical systems of the biological world cannot be simply entertained by a mathematically consistent basis, an exercise of human imagination. Thus, the interrelatedness of scaffolding and functionality of biological systems would need another level of framework. I will add that the complete comprehension of fundamentalness will entail a deeper journey into the worlds of biological and physical evolutions. I believe they intricately co-exist, co-evolve and are co-dependent to define what we term "fundamentalness/absoluteness".

        Best regards,

        Anil

        Re 'mathematics is something that nature does', I'm reminded of Wittgenstein's talk of 'language games' (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_game_(philosophy) and https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/wittgenstein/#MeanUse).