Peter,

It was good to hear your review and point of view, as I am not a supporter of blind review processes.

There is an important lesson in "necessary and sufficient conditions" to be made here. Perhaps I should have spun the essay in that way? To be sure, it is possible to choose a finite representation geometry which is (a) insufficient (b) necessary and sufficient or (c) super-sufficient to replicate QC/ED with gravity and energy metrics. I can list examples of each. In fact I argued that super-symmetry is super-sufficient as long ago as DPF 2000, and Amjorn's dynamical triangulation actually uses 4-tertrahedra. The key is that to replicate QCD, there is ONLY one fundamental algebra which must be used.

So, although we think of the sphere as space-filling, it only requires one dimension, r, to describe it. The triangle requires two, plus the third which arises fundamentally due to delta-t.

While you may have found a way to give QM a foundation (it seems there are several ways), I doubt that it has the "necessary" combinatorial algebra intrinsically tied to its geometry. so no QCD?

The preon/Rishon combinatorial algebra says that TTT is an electron, here I gave that a representation geometry, rather than foolishly assuming it to be a point. Thus VVV is a neutrino, of whatever flavor.

Frankly, the geometry of the neutrino evaded me for many years. Eventually it was clear that the sharp corners of a triangle induce a (a priori disallowed) mathematical singularity. More to the point, a string can be partitioned (or fractionalized), and a Band is simply a string with intrinsic stiffness. The observation that Bands have exactly THREE ground states which oscillate resolves the representation geometry issue.

What would be interesting to study is how that stiffness causes the TTV, VTT etc quarks to seek their correctly-quantized shapes? (In some ways the inverse of your question??)

I shall check for your cyclic variable, since some use the word without actually using Euler's fundamental equation of a circle...

best regards,

Wayne

p.s. I am more concerned about 'veracity' than writing an amusing essay for this Contest. Those rules favor my approach. The FQXi venue affords a way to socialize these fundamental ideas with other (conventional _and_ unconventional) theorists, which should do more to raise awareness and interest than any conference talk. We shall see...?

None of the contemporary physical theories, including QED, QCD, string theory and LQG features a proper foundation.

Only the basic structure that was discovered and introduced by Garrett Birkhoff and John von Neumann in 1936 is a serious candidate for the foundation of physical reality. Some scientists followed that path but never explored it seriously. The Hilbert Book Model Project takes up the button and reaches interesting results.

https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Hilbert_Book_Model_Project

    Wayne,

    You wrote; "I doubt that it has the "necessary" combinatorial algebra intrinsically tied to its geometry. so no QCD?"

    It has. I always find it's better to read things rather than make assumptions. It's a common problem these days. I know some professors only read one paper a month! That means I've read some 10,000 more papers than many professors over the last 20 years! I haven't found conferences any substitute.

    Dirac's double stacked paired inverse orthogonal ('complementarity') states are physically implicit, and so called 'entanglement' emerges simply from maintained anti-paralell polar axes and interaction momentum exchange. The last part of the puzzle emerged only recently, deriving the Cos^2 from Cos distributions. I'm sure you'll be impressed. QCD provided a key element in the field interactions for that last part - as my last years essay identified. I suspect there's more in common but perhaps you'll advise.

    Declan's essay gives the matching computer code and plot for the ontology and experiment in mine.

    Very Best

    Peter

    Dear Wayne, Nice and entertaining work. I chose to became a relativist based on the extraordinary beauty of Einstein's geometric vision of gravity. Thus, despite I am not a particle physicist, I strongly appreciate your approach that what is "Fundamental" for particle theory should be a foundational theorem defining geometric-algebraic space-time objects. Geometrization of all physics is indeed my greatest dream. Thus, your Essay deserves my high rating. Congrats and good luck in the Contest. Cheers, Ch.

      Prof Wayne R Lundberg

      Wonderful thinking sir........That is, the standard model of particle theory is empirically-founded but could benefit from a formal, causal basis for consistency with cosmology. This essay will explore the notion that such a mathematical foundation exists and discuss its ability to address known problems in fundamental physics...........Best wishes for the new theory......

      May be you can have a look at my essay also...

      Here in my essay energy to mass conversion is proposed................ yours is very nice essay best wishes .... I highly appreciate hope your essay and hope for reciprocity ....You may please spend some of the valuable time on Dynamic Universe Model also and give your some of the valuable & esteemed guidance

      Some of the Main foundational points of Dynamic Universe Model :

      -No Isotropy

      -No Homogeneity

      -No Space-time continuum

      -Non-uniform density of matter, universe is lumpy

      -No singularities

      -No collisions between bodies

      -No blackholes

      -No warm holes

      -No Bigbang

      -No repulsion between distant Galaxies

      -Non-empty Universe

      -No imaginary or negative time axis

      -No imaginary X, Y, Z axes

      -No differential and Integral Equations mathematically

      -No General Relativity and Model does not reduce to GR on any condition

      -No Creation of matter like Bigbang or steady-state models

      -No many mini Bigbangs

      -No Missing Mass / Dark matter

      -No Dark energy

      -No Bigbang generated CMB detected

      -No Multi-verses

      Here:

      -Accelerating Expanding universe with 33% Blue shifted Galaxies

      -Newton's Gravitation law works everywhere in the same way

      -All bodies dynamically moving

      -All bodies move in dynamic Equilibrium

      -Closed universe model no light or bodies will go away from universe

      -Single Universe no baby universes

      -Time is linear as observed on earth, moving forward only

      -Independent x,y,z coordinate axes and Time axis no interdependencies between axes..

      -UGF (Universal Gravitational Force) calculated on every point-mass

      -Tensors (Linear) used for giving UNIQUE solutions for each time step

      -Uses everyday physics as achievable by engineering

      -21000 linear equations are used in an Excel sheet

      -Computerized calculations uses 16 decimal digit accuracy

      -Data mining and data warehousing techniques are used for data extraction from large amounts of data.

      - Many predictions of Dynamic Universe Model came true....Have a look at

      http://vaksdynamicuniversemodel.blogspot.in/p/blog-page_15.html

      I request you to please have a look at my essay also, and give some of your esteemed criticism for your information........

      Dynamic Universe Model says that the energy in the form of electromagnetic radiation passing grazingly near any gravitating mass changes its in frequency and finally will convert into neutrinos (mass). We all know that there is no experiment or quest in this direction. Energy conversion happens from mass to energy with the famous E=mC2, the other side of this conversion was not thought off. This is a new fundamental prediction by Dynamic Universe Model, a foundational quest in the area of Astrophysics and Cosmology.

      In accordance with Dynamic Universe Model frequency shift happens on both the sides of spectrum when any electromagnetic radiation passes grazingly near gravitating mass. With this new verification, we will open a new frontier that will unlock a way for formation of the basis for continual Nucleosynthesis (continuous formation of elements) in our Universe. Amount of frequency shift will depend on relative velocity difference. All the papers of author can be downloaded from "http://vaksdynamicuniversemodel.blogspot.in/ "

      I request you to please post your reply in my essay also, so that I can get an intimation that you replied

      Best

      =snp

        I would beg to differ about "only" a 1936 mathematics is a candidate. At that time, they had no QCD, only QED. It is important for a fundamental theory to account for all these quanta, and I did so in a one-to-one way with a (tripartite) string-like geometry.

        I really wish that the modern theorists who eschew ides such as yours (and mine) would attempt to put together a "whatever happened to" explaining how it is that any given theory was abandoned.

        I would suspect that the results lack a causal particle, since Seiberg's criteria seems to hard to pass. Anyway, take another look at the essay and maybe we can find a common interest?

        Wayne

        Wayne, (reply posted in my string)

        Thanks for the support. The link to QED was just what someone pointed out about field depth not anything I 'attempted' to do. However your electron model attachment looks shockingly close to my own some years ago;fqXi finalit 2013-14 Do Bob and Alice have a future? (see the figs etc towards the end). However to remove the weirdness from QM just needs those colours to 'bleed into' each other rather then just 'switch'. Is that excluded in QED?

        It seems you 'switched off' from the essay just when it opened up the ontology for a classical reproduction of QM predictions, as it headed off your own familiar path (indeed m MOST peoples paths!), so you missed the big finale! Do look again if you get a chance. It's consistent with Bell and this important paper, referred in Gordon Watson's consistent paper; Fröhner, F. H. (1998). "Missing link between probability theory and quantum mechanics: the Riesz-Fejér theorem." Z. Naturforsch. 53a, 637-654.

        Very best

        Peter

        Dear Christian,

        I studied QCD as an undergraduate, and took Relativity because I enjoyed it. I have much to learn about astrophysics and BH... in fact I found here an essay from Samir Mather https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/3113 which I think you will like a lot.

        Wayne

        SNP Gupta, I did so and I certainly appreciate your enthusiasm!

        There is room for insight in better understanding our universe

        Peter,

        It is good that we agree on electron representative geometry. This of course is also founded on Rishon partitions. They don't 'bleed' so much as add into and form whatever the particle charge and spin is.

        Wayne

        Hi Prof Wayne R Lundberg

        Thank you for the nice words and observations.....

        You raise an interesting topic, but like others I don't find a clear fundamental thing or principle or formulae......

        ..............My reply.......

        Here I saw many essays discussing what is fundamental etc, but in this essay, I went for the fundamental issue for energy to mass conversions and blue and redshifts and . I asked for help on observational verifications. I don't have a means for doing the observational verifications as I am an independent researcher.

        FQXi wanted this essay should not be a new essay. This original papers for this essay were published and available in the web, please refer them.

        ....................Your words.......

        This essay contest rewards well-written ideas that lead to new observations, and maybe yours ideas are that. But I can't make out how you intend to construct all of particle physics and general relativity, least of all make them into limbs of a larger consistent theory.

        ...............My reply.....

        Some people respond for such words, some will be like you of course. I am also not working for money. Some professors offered money to change into Main stream with money and Ph D etc , but I thought the Ideology of Dynamic Universe Model are better, and provide the world with more solutions and better predictions, even though nobody supports and provide any money to me. I am approaching each individual with this ideology and inviting them to to read my essay. I came to fag end of life. I don't expect much now.

        I am not intending to solve all the Physics problems, But I am working to provide solutions to cosmology portions. Thirty five experience with cosmological models taught me that there will not be any financial or otherwise support to any theory that is not supporting General theory of Relativity. I don't know why?

        ................. your words...........

        It seems to be mere philosophy, and physics requires equations. To be sure, many of the Gedanken you use could be experimentally tested, or already have been (likely also excluding this result).

        .............. My reply.............

        There were many papers available on internet with full mathematical explanation. I can not give 25 pages of mathematics in just 9 pages. I just touched it. Many the axioms are experimentally tested or having observational support, the prediction here is one of the exceptions. Hope you will help me for this....

        Thank you for your interest in Dynamic Universe Model.......

        Best Regards

        =snp

        4 days later

        No-one has the means for observational evidence, and in fact observations do more to disprove theory. So you should be looking for evidence among what is already observed that conflicts with your (not very well formulated) intuition.

        Why? Because GR works quite well. Better yet with the cosmological constant. In fact even subtle variants away from GR are very often easily disproven... I have some good amusing examples. For now the Modified Gravity camp and the Dark Energy camp are fighting it out, with a high probability of mutual exclusion. We'll have to wait and see what the Dark Energy survey concludes... unfortunately they so far have weak statistics, currently favoring CC by 3sigma or maybe more.

        I figure that data excludes your work... but don't feel alone... many well-funded theories (missing mass, i.e. gravitational collapse of the universe) have had spectacular ends (1998).

        Wayne

        Dear Wayne Lundberg,

        Thanks for reading my essay and commenting. I'm glad you enjoyed it. You suggested that I look at Seiberg, Susskind, and Toumbas on 'Space-time Non-commutation and Causality' - they discuss "the other term is an "advanced" wave which appears to leave the wall before the incoming packet arrived." They then say a conflict with Lorentz invariance is relevant. As you know I reject space-time symmetry in favor of an asymmetric energy-time interpretation of special relativity. Susskind's most recent book (my ref 19) claims to derive the Lorentz in two inertial frames "just like Einstein". That this approach is inherently geometric is reinforced by Susskind's advice:

        "When confronted with one of these paradoxes, you should draw space-time diagram".

        In other words, don't use logic (leading to 'paradox'), use geometry. Susskind is still big on strings, which many if not most physicists have moved away from. Hartl, Hawking, and Hertog in "The Classical Universes of the No Boundary Quantum State" believe that the quantum state of the universe determines whether or not it exhibits a quasi-classical realm. I have very little faith in theories based on "the quantum state of the universe."

        If I understand your essay you wish to construct fundamental quanta and properties from geometry:

        "... All fundamental particle quanta, mass and energy quantities are attributed to a geometric basis [having a dual algebra, with no geometrical properties left over]."

        While I tend to agree concerning "foundational theorem which defines geometric-algebraic space-time objects.", I perhaps misunderstand the attempts to define "finite particle representation geometry" that replicates QC/ED quantum state algebra. While I believe geometric algebra is the proper framework: (combining algebra and geometry) I do not believe that elucidating the product terms [as I understand other essays to do] and placing them in one-to-one correspondence with the elementary particles is the correct approach. The LHC has shown that a perfect fluid results from Pb-Pb and Au-Au collisions, and I believe a fluid dynamics model is required to produce the particle zoo (utilizing Yang Mills gauge). I believe the pseudo-stable states resulting actually do have geometric properties, but I see these as 'end states'. I do not see geometric properties as initial states, and thus do not believe such geometry fundamental. I hope I have understood your essay correctly.

        My best regards,

        Edwin Eugene Klingman

          Dear Edwin,

          You have an interesting belief system. It seems that you've taken a rather different approach to restoring causality to particle theory. It would necessarily be a rather more complex approach if you rely solely on Yang-Mills as fundamental and attempt to reconstruct QCD via a fluid-dynamics idea. I model them as co-fundamental, all quanta are required to have a geometrically different state as a Planck-scale basis.

          Might also note that the fluidic properties at Pb-Pb and Au-Au collisions are many orders of magnitude larger in physical scale than the Strong insteraction level(scale).

          Seiberg's causality criteria is met by my approach, in which I simply restore QC/ED algebraic basis to NBWF. In actual fact it is a convenient supporting result.

          I'd heard of the fuzzy instanton in the mid-80s but didn't like their fuzziness (which I resolve into a nonperturbative quantum geometric-state .. a quark has color due to its shape-states). Back then I focussed on the algebraic group of the state algebra (which I much later found out was a cross product of two wreath products).

          Of course there was a long era of string-theoretic dominance (cheered on by Nobel laureates, btw) in which the central question was 'how does a string model mass?'. Of course mass at the quantum scale is area-like (see the ref to book "Gravitation"), and others used that successfully. I had long objected to the assumption (GSW page 22-25) of cyclindrical symmetric closed string, with perturbations. Well they ran into a wall, got lost in the 'string theory forest 10^100' while the partitioned string is validated by the fact that, with STIFFNESS included, it is actually a BAND.

          Anyway, all of this came together at DPF '09 when HHH won the Einstein Prize for the NBWF and, there, in his prize talk, Hartle used a formula that was in the EXACT SAME form as what I use to descibe quark area-mass and energy-curvature!! WE AGREED... although Hawking and I don't yet agree on information-preserving black holes.

          Bands always coil up in a trecoil, which have three topologically distinct geometric-states. Thus Band Theory predicts massive oscillating neutrinos in a VERY FUNDAMENTAL way. Some important string-theoretic results are thus preserved (i.e. ralpha'/R ) but a Band is CORRECTLY QUANTIZED in both strong color, weak charge and spin states. Thus 1-1 and ONTO. A uniqueness proof is thus enabled...

          The consclusion I reach is that the quantum numbers of BOTH weak (thus Yang-Mills) and strong forces are co-fundamental, as they are both equally tied to geometrically quantized states. As it happens, the geometric-algebraic duality, as in Langland's Program, is thereby borne out. ALL areas of physics have a geometric basis.

          Anyway, I think I should write about quantized geometric states, starting from spinning B&W coins to the more complex geometry needed to found QCD and QED simultaneously. The green down state I illustrated does kind of presume some further insight... let me know.

          Best-

          Wayne

          Dear Wayne

          If you are looking for another essay to read and rate in the final days of the contest, will you consider mine please? I read all essays from those who comment on my page, and if I cant rate an essay highly, then I don't rate them at all. Infact I haven't issued a rating lower that ten. So you have nothing to lose by having me read your essay, and everything to gain.

          Beyond my essay's introduction, I place a microscope on the subjects of universal complexity and natural forces. I do so within context that clock operation is driven by Quantum Mechanical forces (atomic and photonic), while clocks also serve measure of General Relativity's effects (spacetime, time dilation). In this respect clocks can be said to possess a split personality, giving them the distinction that they are simultaneously a study in QM, while GR is a study of clocks. The situation stands whereby we have two fundamental theories of the world, but just one world. And we have a singular device which serves study of both those fundamental theories. Two fundamental theories, but one device? Please join me and my essay in questioning this circumstance?

          My essay goes on to identify natural forces in their universal roles, how they motivate the building of and maintaining complex universal structures and processes. When we look at how star fusion processes sit within a "narrow range of sensitivity" that stars are neither led to explode nor collapse under gravity. We think how lucky we are that the universe is just so. We can also count our lucky stars that the fusion process that marks the birth of a star, also leads to an eruption of photons from its surface. And again, how lucky we are! for if they didn't then gas accumulation wouldn't be halted and the star would again be led to collapse.

          Could a natural organisation principle have been responsible for fine tuning universal systems? Faced with how lucky we appear to have been, shouldn't we consider this possibility?

          For our luck surely didnt run out there, for these photons stream down on earth, liquifying oceans which drive geochemical processes that we "life" are reliant upon. The Earth is made up of elements that possess the chemical potentials that life is entirely dependent upon. Those chemical potentials are not expressed in the absence of water solvency. So again, how amazingly fortunate we are that these chemical potentials exist in the first instance, and additionally within an environment of abundant water solvency such as Earth, able to express these potentials.

          My essay is attempt of something audacious. It questions the fundamental nature of the interaction between space and matter Guv = Tuv, and hypothesizes the equality between space curvature and atomic forces is due to common process. Space gives up a potential in exchange for atomic forces in a conversion process, which drives atomic activity. And furthermore, that Baryons only exist because this energy potential of space exists and is available for exploitation. Baryon characteristics and behaviours, complexity of structure and process might then be explained in terms of being evolved and optimised for this purpose and existence. Removing need for so many layers of extraordinary luck to eventuate our own existence. It attempts an interpretation of the above mentioned stellar processes within these terms, but also extends much further. It shines a light on molecular structure that binds matter together, as potentially being an evolved agency that enhances rigidity and therefor persistence of universal system. We then turn a questioning mind towards Earths unlikely geochemical processes, (for which we living things owe so much) and look at its central theme and propensity for molecular rock forming processes. The existence of chemical potentials and their diverse range of molecular bond formation activities? The abundance of water solvent on Earth, for which many geochemical rock forming processes could not be expressed without? The question of a watery Earth? is then implicated as being part of an evolved system that arose for purpose and reason, alongside the same reason and purpose that molecular bonds and chemistry processes arose.

          By identifying atomic forces as having their origin in space, we have identified how they perpetually act, and deliver work products. Forces drive clocks and clock activity is shown by GR to dilate. My essay details the principle of force dilation and applies it to a universal mystery. My essay raises the possibility, that nature in possession of a natural energy potential, will spontaneously generate a circumstance of Darwinian emergence. It did so on Earth, and perhaps it did so within a wider scope. We learnt how biology generates intricate structure and complexity, and now we learn how it might explain for intricate structure and complexity within universal physical systems.

          To steal a phrase from my essay "A world product of evolved optimization".

          Best of luck for the conclusion of the contest

          Kind regards

          Steven Andresen

          Darwinian Universal Fundamental Origin

            Dear Wayne,

            What a fascinating essay! I was surprised at how short it was in page count, since you cover a lot of turf. I was also very pleased to see an essay that addresses quarks, the strong force, and neutrinos, since without those other non-electrons it's hard to see how one can make serious inroads into the issue of where fermions come from. Arguably, the far messier and more complicated interactions of quarks are more likely to be telling us something important about fermions in general than are the clean, largely unencumbered (unconfined!) electrons in isolation.

            Yes, I am very familiar with the rishon model and its delightfully named pair of preons, the vohu ("void", V, with no electric charge) and the tohu ("unformed" ,T, or mnemonically one "Third" of an electron charge). It was the starting point for some of my most intriguing personal research, even though the original rishon model flatly does not work. What Harari and Shupe glommed onto there was an underlying symmetry that they unfortunately tried to translate directly into still more particles, when the message was really a bit subtler than that.

            My familiarity with where rishons went wrong is why I found this paragraph of your essay especially fascinating. It also made me pay much closer attention to what you are saying in your entire essay:

            Essay page 1: "The T & V (Rishon[s]) geometric basis doesn't include curvature, which is constructed when three [T & V preons] are taken as a group, e.g. quark. Geometric intuition suggests that they are 'fused', as partitions of a closed string, band, etc. ... QCD color is determined by the orientation of the intrinsic spin centerline with respect to the colored partitions, Up or Down quanta by the number of T (or V) partition/preons, and Electro-dynamic charge is assigned as usual."

            Uh, WOW!

            You are dead right that the original Harari "straight string" of three preons, e.g. TTT for the positron, {VTT, TVT, and TTV} for the three colors of up quarks, {TVV, VTV, VVT} for anti-down quarks and anti-colors, and VVV for neutrinos, fails literally at the geometric level because it "distinguishes" both the start and end quarks and the order in which they are connected. The only geometric resolution that makes sense is exactly what you drew in your figure: A loop of three rishons that is bowed in outward (either up or down) around its axis of symmetry.

            After that , I started reading what you are saying a lot more carefully. To be, um, a bit blunt about it, you're writing style is so informal and, well... "syntactically random" maybe?... that it's too asy to skim over what you are saying about physics.

            But here's the deal: Out of the hundreds or thousands of folks who have looked at the rishon model seriously over the past few decades, to the best of my knowledge you are only person (OK OK, other than myself) who noticed this absolutely critical geometry issue. It's literally foundational in the sense that if you don't notice it, you are instantly and from there on guaranteed that no theory built on T and V can ever be internally self-consistent, despite all of its promising relationships that rishon triplets have to the fermions. I am pretty sure that folks not noticing this deep problem is at least one of the reasons why the rishon idea never really got out of the starting gate.

            You are a very clever man, Wayne. You hide it a bit behind a highly informal and somewhat syntactically random style of speaking, but some of your insights are deep and frankly profound. If early in rishon history Harari or Shupe had figured out what you just said, I suspect that some of the major threads in the history of particle unification theory would have played out very differently by now.

            Another important issue that you identified was this one:

            Essay page 2: "The proposed [rishon loop] approach to particle theory bears a striking geometric similarity to string theory."

            Now on this one I'll go out on a bit of limb and suggest to you that the reason for this resemblance is that you are looking at the real, experimentally accessible prequel to string theory.

            Most folks aren't aware of it, but nucleons like protons and neutrons have additional spin states that appear like heavier particles built from the same set of quarks. Thus in addition to uud forming a spin 1/2 proton, the same three quarks can also form a heavier particle with spin 3/2 (1 added unit of spin) and spin 5/2 (2 added units of spin). These three variations form a lovely straight line when plotted as mass versus spin, which in turn implies a fascinatingly regular relationship between mass and nucleon spin.

            These lines are called Regge trajectories, and back in the late 1960s and early 1970s they looked like a promising hint for how to unify the particle zoo. Analyses of Regge trajectories indicated string-like stable resonance states were creating the extreme regularity of the Regge trajectories. These "strings" consisted of something very real, the strong force, and their vibrations were highly constrained by something equally real, the quarks that composed the nucleons (and also mesons, which also have Regge trajectories). These boson-like resonances of a string-like incarnation of the strong force were highly unexpected, extremely interesting, and experimentally accessible. Theorists were optimistic.

            Then it all went to Planck.

            Specifically, the following paper caught on like wildfire (slow wildfire !) and ended up obliterating any hope or future funding for understanding the quite real, experimentally accessible, proton-scale, strong-force-based string vibrations behind Regge trajectories. They did this by proposing what I like to call the Deep Dive:

            Scherk, J. & Schwarz, J. H., Dual Models for Non-Hadrons, Nuclear Physics B, Elsevier, 1974, 81, 118-144.

            So what was the Deep Dive, and why did they do it?

            Well, it "went down" like this: Scherk and Schwarz noticed that the overall signature of some of the proton-sized strong-force vibrations behind Regge trajectories were very similar to the spin 2 signatures of the (still) hypothetical gravitons that were supposed to unify gravity with other three forces of the Standard Model. Since the emerging Standard Model was having breathtaking success in that time period for explaining the particle zoo, quantum gravity and the Planck-scale foam were very popular at the time... and very tempting.

            So, based as best I can tell only on the resemblance of these very real vibration modes in baryons and mesons to gravitons, Scherk and Schwarz made their rather astonishing, revelation-like leap: They decided that the strong-force-based vibrations behind Regge trajectories were in fact gravitons, which have nothing to do with the strong force and are most certainly not "composed" of the strong force. The Planck-scale vibrations of string theory are instead composed of... well, I don't know what, maybe intense gravity? I've never been able to get an answer out of a string theorist on that question of "what is a string made of?" This is not an unfair question, since for example the original strings behind Regge trajectories are "composed" of the strong force, and have quite real energies associated with their existences.

            I still don't even quite get even the logic behind the Deep Dive, since gravity had exactly zero to do with either the substance of the strings (a known force) or the nature of the skip-rope-like, quark-constrained vibrations behind Regge trajectories. Nonetheless they did it. They took the Deep Dive, and it only ended up costing physics the following:

            ... 20 orders of magnitude of and shrinking size, since protons are about 10-15 meters across, and the gravitons were nominally at the Planck foam scale of 10-35 (!!!), which is a size scale that is inaccessible to any conceivable direct measurement process in the universe; plus:

            ... 20 orders of magnitude of increased energy costs, which is similarly universally inaccessible to any form of direct measurement; plus:

            ... a complete liberation from all of those annoying but experimentally validated vibration constraints that were imposed in real nucleons and mesons by the presence of quarks and the strong force. That's a cost, not a benefit, since it explodes the range of options that have to be explored to find a workable theory. Freeing the strings from... well... any appreciable experimental or theoretical constraints... enabled them instead to take on the nearly infinite number of possible vibration modes that a length or loop of rope gyrating wildly in outer space would have; and finally:

            ... just to add yet a few more gazillion unneeded and previously unavailable degrees of freedom, a huge increase in the number of available spatial dimensions, always at least 9 and often many more.

            And they wonder why string theory has 10500 versions of the vacuum... :)

            Oh... did I also mention that the Deep Dive has cost the US (mainly NSF plus matching funds from other institutions) well over half a billion dollars, with literally not a single new experimental outcome, let alone any actual working new process or product, as a consequence?

            This was only to be expected, since the Deep Dive plunged all research into real string-like vibrations down into the utterly inaccessible level of the Planck foam. Consequently, the only product of string theory research has been papers. This half a billion dollars' worth of papers has built on itself, layer by layer of backward citations and references, for over 40 years. In many cases, the layers of equations are now so deep that no human mind could possibly verify them. Errors only amplify over time, and if there is no way to stop their propagation by catching them though experiments, it's the same situation as trying to write an entire computer operating system in one shot, without having previously executed and validated its individual components.

            In short, what the US really got for its half billion dollars was a really deep stack of very bad programming. Our best hope for some eventual real return on string theory investments is that at least a few researchers were able to get in some real, experimentally meaningful research in all of that, to produce some real products that don't depend on unverifiable non-realities.

            So Wayne, here is real my point:

            It is not accurate to say that your loop rishons ideas resembles string theory, because what you just proposed is almost certainly both real and experimentally accessible, and string theory is not.

            Thus the correct statement is that string theory somewhat vaguely resembles your work on rishon string loops. I'll give the string theory body of work credit for that much, even if it is a lot shabbier in quality.

            In other words, your 2017 FQXi essay very likely has more experimentally meaningful real value than all that pile of string theory papers that all those US government agencies have invested in for over 40 years. (DoD did not participate, nanny-nanny boo-boo NSF!).

            And you accomplished all of this for... a lot less than half a billion dollars!... :)

            Cheers,

            Terry

            Fundamental as Fewer Bits by Terry Bollinger (Essay 3099)

            Essayist's Rating Pledge by Terry Bollinger

            P.S. - Sorry, but the FQXi rating that I'm giving your essay as a submission to the 2017 FQXi Essay contest is not all that high. That's because your essay is: structurally and syntactically a bit of a mess; stuffed to the gills with way too many ideas introduced in way too short of a space; and not even pretending to answer the real FQXi question this year, which is to explain what the word 'fundamental' really means. That said, I also think every serious particle theorist should at least look over and read your essay. While some of the content of your essay is very likely nonsense (sorry, but that is pretty much true for everyone writing papers in an exploratory area like this), you are also almost frighteningly spot-on for at least some issues. That makes your essay very much worth reading and taking seriously, contest aside.

              Wayne

              Are you saying there has to be a sharp 'cut off' line at the switch? or how about 'blending' with uncertainty across the change?

              For my model I'm pleased to have now found tho Poincare sphere, matching my 2 paired orthogonal distributions! Could you actually follow the full ontology producing the CHSH.2 classical reproduction of QM?

              Scoring yours now, hold tight for the boost.

              Peter

              Steven,

              I'm not really 'looking for more essays to read and rate'' but am interested in innovative ideas. There are many papers here that consider PART of the basis for all 4 fundamental forces... but few even attempt to explain all.

              I'll search out yours, but you really didn't need to write a mini-essay to ask... I feel all hypotheses must end somehow, so it is important to understand and be able to explain how. so few even attempt THAT!

              WRL

              Terry,

              The association with string was originally geometric, and I always constructed it 'with partitions'. But they couldn't figure out how to do that and the journals were filled with dead-end refs. Eventually, after seminars hosted by Kaufmann and conversations with Smolin, the two collaborated with Bilson-Thompson on another geometric version of TVT combinatorial algebra and quantum gravity. IMHO the younger students maybe miss a lot of good older theory just because it isn't accessible in the arXiv.

              I attempted to explain my departure from traditional string theory via ref to M.B. Green, J.H. Schwarz and E. Witten, Superstring Theory, Cambridge University Press, p 21-22, 1987.

              But you tell it:

              "... papers ..built on itself, layer by layer of backward citations and references, for over 40 years. In many cases, the layers of equations are now so deep that no human mind could possibly verify them. Errors only amplify over time, and if there is no way to stop their propagation "

              The truly sad part of this observation is that I've tried for ages to stop the limp-string madness, citing GSW page 21-22, in which an unstated assumption is made that the closed string is cylindrically symmmetric with perturbations. As you observe, this both allows a myriad of possible ground-state algebras and avoids (forever) the possibility of finding the correct one-- which is a band (i.e. a closed stiff string).

              Then finally you acknowedge some unfamiliar grammar (perhaps things like "representation geometry"?), which I tend to think was key to the mathematically abstract discussion of 'what is fundamental'. I took the question in the mathematical-physical sense rather a task to define the word in the context of theoretical physics. In fact Sabine Hossenfelder's essay says very much the same thing.

              Clearly both the contest rules and the scoring system favor a more philosophical, and verbose, discussion. se la vie. Having taken on the challenge of writing a fundamentals essay, I chose to stick closely to known theoretical work at that level. Thus it was like a deep 'bounce' dive to the foundational formula (not yet even an equation!) and thence to use that result to answer a few well-known, documented, fundamental physical questions.

              So I am not as verbose, but original in the sense of "what" is fundamental. After all, talking about the requirements (as a couple essay authors did well) but NOT 'putting anything _in_ the box' is not so convincing, yes?

              Also, I have a nice example of how it is that the quark-scale closed band comes to look like an open (thick) string. Of course, since they are at vastly different scales, as you point out, the closed band becomes stretched into a very long dog-bone shape _during_ weak interactions. We note, of course, that the open string theory comes from 'Lund' Univ., and to give it mass in the situation desribed above, Prof Gross showed that the string needs a thickness. Concatinate that thickness, 'b', also intrinsic-energy 'erg'- and what theory do you get??!

              Best regards, look forward to hearing more from you... perhaps collaborative.

              Wayne

              Wayne

              People invent clocks, then Einstein comes along and discovers their rate is modulated in gravitational environments.

              What you have done is listen to somebody say, "forces drive a clocks function, so forces must be implicated in general relativitys effects".

              To which your respond. Nothing of any interest here, bit of poetic mumbo jumbo maybe!

              Maybe it's that you're not very deductive

              Steve