Thanks Flavio,

and great to hear that your main interest is quantum foundations. I don't know if you'll like my interpretation, but I hope so, I do think your work is among the best I've seen on this site.

About the conversation below, yes, there's someone going through the new essays and marking them down - several have had only one rating, of 1/10. The problem with that is, others tend not to read it if they see a rating of 1, so it stays like that. Mine was given that soon after being posted, I don't know if they even read it. Ah well... J

6 days later

Dear Flavio,

I don't know if you've read my essay yet, but when you do, I'd appreciate it if you'd rate it - just for relevant/interesting, you don't have to agree with it, though I'd very much like to hear any comments. It has only had one rating so far, and people aren't reading it as a result, even though Carlo found what's in it interesting.

Thanks a lot, best regards,

Jonathan

Flavio,

This was an excellent read. Very clear, which I value highly. Thank you for the work put into this.

Could I ask what your stance is on the many-worlds interpretaion is, if you take one? I saw your footnote about it, but as you know, it ended there.

Thank you,

Ernesto

    Dear Ernesto,

    thank you so much for your kind words.

    Frankly, I don't like the many-world interpretation very much. Firstly, as Carlo Rovelli always puts it, there is a cost for every interpretation that you have to be ready to pay. Many worlds has an enourmous ontological cost, for it requires to assume this irrisonable moltiplication of worlds, universe, or whatever. Secondly, interpretations not only provide a consistent backstory to a theory, but are also supposed to solve some conceptual issues. In particular the interpretaion of QM should address the nptorious measurement problem. The many-world interpretation claims to provide a nice (deterministic) solution, but this is clearly not true. Indeed, whiile it "solves" the problem of which outcome occurs and has even some arguments on how probabilities emerge from determinism (so, it somehow recovers the Born rule), it does not tell when the branching occurs.Why the universe splits when you go in the lab and activate a photodetector, but not in most ofother interactions?

    I hope this addressed your question. All of this, however, is not really pertinet to my essay.

    Thank you again and all the best,

    Flavio

    Flavio,

    Yes, it was a tangential question, but I appreciate you taking the time to answer. I like your point of view.

    Best,

    Ernesto

    Dear Flavio,

    I enjoyed reading your essay! It's well written, well documented, and interesting, giving a fresh perspective on classical mechanics. And I loved the way you concluded, with the epistemic modesty coming from the acknowledgment that both classical and quantum mechanics can be interpreted both deterministically and indeterministically, without the experiment being able to tell them appart.

    You wrote: leave the dynamical equations of Newtonian mechanics unchanged

    Considering that you reject the ontological principle of infinite precision, what do you think happens with the dynamical equations of Newtonian mechanics? Should them also be replaced with some computable dynamical equations?

    Your essay raises many interesting questions. Some of them are of course related to my own interest. One is the following. Do you think that in classical mechanics indeterminism enters at various times, as part of the dynamics, or only in the initial conditions? This interests me personally because of the way I see quantum mechanics, but I decided to take this part of discussion in private, since I think your FQXi page should stay about your essay.

    Thanks for the great reading, and I wish you success in this contest!

    Cheers,

    Cristi

      Dear Cristi,

      thank you very much for appreciating my work! Indeed, my main motivation is to show that what is considered one of the greatest novelties of quantum mechanics, indeterminism, is not necessarily inherent in that theory. I don't claim, of course, that there are not fundamental differences between classical and quantum theory, but one can surely be more thoughtful and symmetrize the situtation a bit than is customary in textbooks.

      As for your comment on the dynamical equations, this is a very good point. In my previous [link:arxiv.org/abs/1909.03697]paper[link], with Nicolas Gisin, although we have focused primarily on relaxing the principle of infinite precision, by acting on the initial conditions, we briefly discussed possible modifications of the dynamics. I report you here the passage that we wrote about this, because it still reflects what I think about that:

      "The laws of motions are fundamentally stochastic. In this case, however, we cannot speak of an interpretation of the theory, but an actual modification of the formalism is required. In fact, in this case not only chaotic systems but also integrable ones would exhibit noisy outcomes, leading to experimentally inequivalent predictions. This case is the analogue of spontaneous collapse theories in quantum mechanics [22-25], which modify the Schr ¨odinger's equation with additional non-unitary terms."

      Of course, as you hint at, one can also combine two levels of indeterminacy, both at the level of the dynamics and in the initial conditions. Yet, so far I have deliberately focused on the latter case only, because I wanted to maintain the formalism unchanged and only play with interpretations thereof.

      Thank you once more, and I wish you the best for the contest too!

      Cheers,

      Flavio

      Dear Flavio

      I think that, in one way or another, we (physicists) have been aware that the way we are mathematically representing our physical experience has not been the most suitable. For instance, (1) measurements always have an associated uncertainty that arises from the limited resolution of the instruments. (2) It is assumed that the measurement process does not affect the system under study. (3) Physical objects are extended objects. All of this is ignored in the mathematical representation of classical physics. The novelty that I see in your essay is that by a deep and well documented analysis you are showing a way to relax this problem. You are setting an equilibrium between experience and mathematical representation. Your essay and the work behind have the potential for a breakthrough in physics. In my view, it is also a knock down to modern mathematics which, as Scott Guttery argues (another participant), has been completely disconnected from experience, and it is better for us to invent our own mathematics.

      My essay discusses how physics has given too much importance to mathematical representation and measurements on top of our physical understanding, perhaps you will find it interesting.

      By the way, just as feedback, to my knowledge the photoelectric effect was discovered in 1887 by Heinrich Hertz, you say that in 1895 no quantum effect was discovered. Congratulations for your great essay, I am sure it will make to the finals.

      Best Regards

      Israel

        Dear Israel,

        I am flattered by your compliments on the potential you see in my modest work. I am glad that you find it interesting. I will look at your essay as well and comment if I have something to say about it.

        Best regards,

        Flavio

        6 days later

        Dear Dr Flavio Del Santo

        Thank you for presenting a wonderful essay... Your words ..... classical physics (i.e., Newton's mechanics and Maxwell's electrodynamics) would allow, in principle, to predict everything with certainty.....are very much true in case of Dynamic Universe Model. Many of its predictions came true.

        Let me hope you will have time visiting my essay to have a CRITICAL examination of my essay... "A properly deciding, Computing and Predicting new theory's Philosophy".....

        Best Regards

        =snp

        Dear Flavio

        I came here to comment by seeing the popularity of your essay and by reading the abstract I understood your view point at least (I guess). Then, going through the successive posts I encountered your comment: ``the whole point of my view is that there is ALWAYS an element of genuine randomness. If you accept my alternative interpretation, even the length of a metal rod would not be fully determined.'' I appreciate your attitude and your thought is in the right direction (in my personal opinion). I wrote this obviously because it somewhat matches with mine. However, I may humbly opine that you have assumed a lot and then expressed your view.

        I believe you could have got to the crux of the problem by asking much more elementary questions related to you probably learnt in your school. It is about units, measurements and calculus. Have you ever wondered, when your write, following Cauchy, ``infinitely small quantity'' in the definition of derivative, if this phrase makes sense at all or it only makes sense when you write ``infinitely small quantity with respect to another quantity''. Think about it.

        Consider your metal rod. Can you tell me whether it is ``long or short''? Yes, my question is meaningless and you can not answer because you need to know ``with respect to what''. So, comparison of two lengths (or similar physical quantities) only provide a number and with this number you do mathematics and draw inference. However, as you say, there is ALWAYS a randomness, or as I say ``inexactness'' in measurement. Einstein himself ignored this fact by writing that this problem can be overcome by choosing sub divided rods (smaller units). If you don't believe me, I can give you the reference.

        In spite of such practical inexactness, equations in physics are written as if they are exact. Starting from Newton to Cauchy and other great men of science, including Einstein, have treated science as exact, at least in writing (may be not in the attitude). Otherwise, science could have been very different, without having any singularity problems or the difficulties regarding the classical-quantum distinction.

        Anyways, I do not want to bore you more with my childish comments, because I have already written a childish essay posted here. I would rather conclude by wishing you luck for winning this essay contest (which I think you are the most probable one).

        Regards

        Abhishek Majhi

        Dear Flavio,

        Your ideas are brilliant and the essay itself is extremely well prepared. You touch the deep problems related to real numbers, no infinities in the Universe, nondeterminism, unpredictability and arguments are impeccable. Then the only question which remains is how come all this is like it is which is the domain of mystical Theory of Everything. Arguments like yours and other led me to conclusion that such theory has to be grounded in uncomputability. But how? I sketched the out-of-the-mainstream ideas in my essay.

        Best regards,

        Irek

          Dear Irek,

          thank you for your kind feedback! I will have a look at your essay and send you my comments, should I have some.

          All good wishes,

          Flavio

          Dear Flavio,

          I found your paper persuasive and powerful. The only content issue I think of is that a few comments about how your ideas relate to the popular block universe concept would have been nice. I am myself very solidly in the now-is-real column, but I also deeply respect both Einstein's concerns on frame foliation reconciliation, and quantum arguments such as Wheeler-Feynman retarded-advanced photon models. These are relevant since any pre-existence of complete, beginning-to-end world lines implies effectively infinite classical precision of all points in all foliations/slices of the resulting block universe.

          One of the most profound and universal aspects of observable physics is a tendency for many, but by no means all, natural phenomena to converge towards well-defined limits. These limits often occurs at scales far smaller than our unaided senses can perceive. If physics did not work this way, the calculus never would have worked well enough for modeling this universe to have been worth the trouble.

          Thus I read your arguments as emphasizing this collection of limit-approaching processes as the reality, while the limit itself is the fictional goal, at least for processes in the real universe and in computation.

          I suspect there is also a powerful anthropic component to why we do this.

          That's because all forms of life are about using low-bit models to predict (and thus survive in) high-bit environments, the latter of which are never fully predictable with such models. In the absence of widespread asymptotic convergence, such modeling would become infeasible. Our brains thus have a built-in biological bias towards bit-efficient Platonic idealism, since it gives us a way to approximating a reality that is far more computationally efficient that attempting more accurate convergence-level modeling.

          Other items: I like your FIQ approach to defining numeric precision.

          One observation there is that I suspect integers often seduce folks into sloppy thinking about such issues. Integers seem infinitely precise in ways that real numbers can never be. Thus integer thinking seems to enable forms of computation that are, at least for a subset of reality, "infinitely" precise.

          However, in an interesting analogy to decoherence in quantum theory, this concept of exact classical precision falls apart badly when the full environment in which such calculations operate is taken into account. In fact, here's a radical suggesting: Integer counting is hugely more difficult in classical systems than in quantum systems. Uh... what??

          Here's what I mean: When a rest state helium atom selects (counts) its two electrons, those electrons are really and truly state variants of a single underlying and literally universal object type, the electron. That this is so can be seen in the necessity for quantum mechanics to treat them as objects that cannot be distinguished, giving rise to fermi and bose statistics. So: Quantum "counts" are real counts of truly identical objects.

          In sharp contrast, n classical object are not and never can be absolutely identical. Thus the only way by which the seemingly perfectly precise integer counting process of, say, a computer can be attached ("decohered") to the environment to which it applies is for some set of entities to be observed and classified as the "same". This in turn implies the existence inclusion in the process of a rather sophisticated intelligent observer, one that is capable of deciding where a particular time-evolving collection of atoms and energy is or is not an "object" as defined by the pristine counting process.

          Thus not only is the object concept itself amorphous and burry around the edges in both space and time (e.g. is a worn bearing still a bearing?), all forms of classical counting -- including emphatically that of fingers and toes, since how often does one encounter atomically identical fingers -- are arguably more observer-dependent than are quantum counting phenomena. Atoms at least can count (select) the number of base-state electrons they need quite precisely, and do so without the need for any intelligent observers.

          A final thought is the simplest argument of all: If one assumes the existence of only one infinitely precise number anywhere in the universe, whether real such as an object trajectory or as bits in some remarkable computer, the unavoidable result is that the universe collapses. It cannot do otherwise, since the energy required to instantiate any such number will always be infinite, no matter its physical form.

          So again, this time in frustration mode vs. accommodation (of block universes) mode: For at least the century or so since folks figured out for sure that atoms are real, why the bleep do both math and science persist in pretending that every particle possesses the infinite precision needed to make determinism real, when such precisions, such FIQs, are flatly impossible both in theory (e.g. quantum uncertainty) and experimentally?

          Bottom line: I think you are hitting all the right notes. Great paper!

            Dear Terry,

            thank you very much for your feedback!

            Indeed, you correctly point out a difficulty of our approach, which is a tension between the time that really passes due to the dertermination of new physical quantities and the relativistic time, which is just another component of the space-time manifold (which indeed is defined in terms of homeomorphisms with the Euclidean space R^n). We are working on this and have already discussed possible solutions.

            However, I am not sure whether I agree with what you then say about the continous limits:

            "These limits often occurs at scales far smaller than our unaided senses can perceive. If physics did not work this way, the calculus never would have worked well enough for modeling this universe to have been worth the trouble."

            In fact, quantum mechanics occurs at scales far smaller than our unaided senses can perceive and yet there the we found the first impossibility of thinking in terms of continuity. So I would say that it is the other way around: our human-scale made us think that everything is smooth and continous, but when you observe from much closer you are forced to introduce quantizations.

            Thank you once more and all the best,

            Flavio

            Flavio, thanks! I must have worded that badly: I was trying to say exactly what you just said: It's just the huge number of atoms in human-scale objects that fools us into believing in "continuity" that is actually quantized.

            Dear Flavio,

            As an engineer we are taught early on that all the problems that we are going to solve are idealization also all of the laws of physics classical or otherwise are idealization of the problems being solved, theoretical or applied. So I don't know in that sense what is the real discovery. Moreover, the problem with the standard QM interpretation(the minimum) in terms of predictibility is fundamentally vastly different in quality and quantity, so I don't see how you casting doubt on the uncertainity in classical helps in QM.

            My solution has been to try to deal with the problem with the only and final way to solve all these problems, that is to find the correct ontology which leads to to a fairly simple system that can be comprehended easily.

            It is also very baffling for me when all the respectable physicists (not talking about amateur philosopher) here in this contest go on about Turing and Godel yet we have been doing physics in the past 400 years with regular math with fairly good success. So it should have been obvious that it is only about a correction to the model and deducing some ontology, that is all and not go on a wild goose chase.

            Sorry for being direct, I don't mean to be unfriendly, just my opinion. Thanks

              I should just mention that I don't mean that my system is correct as is, but I think it is highly suggestive of the correct physics since it closely follows present understanding and the general set up of today's physics, yet more fundamental.

              Dear Adel Sadeq, there is a deep conceptual difference between the way engeneers and (even experimental scientists) are trained and the foundations we groumd our scientific theories upon. You are referring to the unavoidable finiteness of the error bars in actual measurements. Clearly this is not the same as having fundamental limits of determuninacy, as I discuss in my essay.