Deciding on the nature of time and space by Edwin Eugene Klingman

Hi Edwin,

I'd almost given up on you! Excellent essay again, and brave, as you know the judges will be stony ground. Still, nicely put together and argued, and of course I agree with most. I know you won't mind discussion of the bits I don't, but first, full marks for stating we CAN'T VALIDLY 'MEASURE' FROM OTHER FRAMES!

I'll re-state my own clear rationale for that as I suggest it's where your 'absolute' background needs 'completion'. We can't validly measure PROPAGATION speed from another system. But we CAN use pythagorus and lateral emission sequences to 'measue' "CO-ORDINATE" speeds, which CAN be c+v as they're only apparent, as the system itself (train) is also moving.

That then means we have the LOCAL backgrounds we know exist; a LENS in motion, then ECRF, ECI frame, Barycentric, Interstellar (ISM), IGM, etc. And the key to the whole rationale is that each is "DISCRETE", i.e. mutually exclusive spatially and 'nested' hierarchically, so 'bounded' by the LT as a real 'shock' speed change mechanism. THEN I suggest your 'absolute' can make absolute sense in ALL cases!!

Your glass window question was spot on because light does c/n in ALL glass, so light from the Bebecar changed speed o both entering and leaving the glass, by TWO factors each time! I know that's hard to grasp and retain but I also know you have the intellect.

But that's just about content (not a valid scoring matter).

Do think thet through and let me know if you struggle to rationalise it. I thought you had before but with so many essays such concepts are very hard to embed and recall!

By the way on THAT model there IS of course also an 'ultimate' absolute system frame, but at the centre of the universe, so inaccessible.

But well done. I confess I'd thought Susskind a bit brighter and braver than that. But I found his views on QM & string theory similarly limited. Do you think it may be the usual peer pressure from having to get paid by universities?

Very best,

Peter

Hi Eckard,

I certainly agree 'Tomorrow Never Dies' is open, but suspect you meant I declared another 'TND' wrong??

Peter

Eugene. I studied your essay (for a long time) and I basically agree with your conclusions. It appears to me that a theory that depicts a physical (ontological) result with a mathematical (creating and functioning) fundamental that correlates with the empirical physical measurements - from the smallest Planck action to the the visible universe - would solve many(all?) of the of the major problems of physics. The Successful Self Creation process/results introduced in my essay "Clarification of Physics..." appears to meet those criteria. In the theory I show how the processing created the variables/relationships of space, time, mass, speed, time that scale up to become the variables/relationships of the universe and its contents. It also creates the mathematics that can be used to explain them and their fit in the processing. In addition the process creates Quantum Mechanics, Planck action(s) and unifies QM, Planck Action and Relativity in one theory. Almost sounds too good to be true? I would appreciate your comments on my essay. John Crowell

Edwin,

I have taken to printing out essays that I read, making it easier to really digest them. I have always valued your opinion and am gratified with your comments re my effort. You never really know if you have hit the mark on each contest effort until community members really take the effort to read them closely. Thanks for your interest.

Jim Hoover

Dear Edward,

First of all, it is good to meet again, I read already your comments before you participated in this contest, and I fully agreed and thank you for reading my essay.

While reading your essay I made the following remarks:

Special relativity is indeed not as simple as it seems, because it analyses an emergent phenomenon, as you say the "ontology" of space and time in this framework. The ontology of simultaneity in an emergent phenomenon becomes ALWAYS the relativity of simultaneity. I tried to escape this with the introduction of the Subjective Simultaneity Sphere (SSS), the stationary frame is then the conscious agent, that can be seen as the reference of reference.

The velocity of light C, is for the conscious agent one of the borders of his reality, the maximum speed that the radius of his SSS can expand, so it doesn't mean that C is the ABSOLUTE velocity. You say: " Moving frames with arbitrary velocity is meaningless unless a universal velocity exists to which they can be compared.". Here you approach the same problem we all are struggling with "The Reference of Reference" You are right when you say: "moving reference frames are not accessible by us".

I can only fully agree with you when you say "It views time as the intuitive common-sense notion that it is NOW everywhere in the universe, all at once, with one moment passing into the next moment; moments in time spanning the entire three-dimensional space." This is exactly what I mean to say that the real NOW is an unapproachable moment in Total Simultaneity.

"Assignment of properties is essentially epistemology; the nature of the world is ontology. Assigning properties to the wrong ontology does not make sense" Bravo.

When you say "Two different mathematic-based structures can co-exist for quite a while, but only one of the two ontologies actually exists." I should like to add that the co-existence of these two mathematical based structures is a coexistence in the PAST, they were thought of in the past, both ontologies were existing in the past and the future will bring a new ontology because "existing" is only the unapproachable NOW.

Dear Edwin, I really liked your essay and I didn't understand the first 1 someone gave you, but I see you are getting already the value it deserves, and I added now my personal valuation.

Best regards and good luck.

Wilhelmus de Wilde

Hello Mr Klingman,

I enjoyed you relevant essay about this special relativity and the general frame if I can, say , I have shared it on Facebook,

good luck and best regards

Hello again, Edwin:

I took some time to review you article "Everything's relative, or is it?" I see clearly now that we are absolutely on the same page ontologically. I have focused on quantum mechanical issues and was unaware of the issues regarding relativity that you raise. SR clearly allows different frames of reference (FORs) to synchronize their clocks if their relative motions are zero. If we assume a stationary FOR, we can therefore define a universal time frame throughout 3D space. 4D spacetime and 3D space time are distinct conceptual models with distinct mathematical descriptions, which you have detailed. I was interested to learn that within the 4D spacetime ontology, length contraction is implied, but it is not empirically observable! We have both argued that a valid empirical model can accommodate multiple conceptual models, but only one is right. We both agree that physical reality must be defined with respect to its actual physical framework, or more generally, to its context.

I hope you take a closer look at my essay. If you overlook my lack of appreciation of different ontological interpretations of relativity, you will find a deeper framework that unites our contextual conceptual interpretations. By including a positive ambient temperature as part of the context, I eliminate quantum paradoxes, establish the 2nd Law of thermodynamics as a fundamental physical law, and allow an objective definition and arrow of functional complexity. A positive ambient temperature is empirically justified because absolute zero is an idealization that does not exist in reality, and the universe as a whole has an ambient temperature currently equal to its 2.7 K cosmic microwave background.

Thank you for expanding my horizons. I hope I can return the favor.

Harrison

You are welcome , Yes I am better , I had many problems in Belgium ,I was in a big depression due to many problems, I have lost all the important persons, they are dead like my mothers due to cancer, my godfather a suicide and my grandmother and all this the last 5 years, I am alone without nobody ,more others serious problems and a difficult past also, but I am better, I have immigrated since 7 moths here in Finland, I live with Ulla Mattfolk, she tells you hello.

I have evolved also about my theory, I learn a lot of maths and improve it, at the begining here on FQXi my English was not well, it is a Little bit better even if it is not perfect in grammar , and my theory like I said Begins to be better at my humble opinion, I will publish several papers this year in logic, I am invited too at several international Conferences, I must say that I fear, I dislike to present in front of persons lol but I must assume. Thanks for your nice message, I repeat but your essay was very relevant to read, I wish you all the best and take care also , be the force with you Jedi of the Sphere :)

Friendly

Dear Edwin Eugene Klingman:

I'm glad you liked my essay. You say:

"It's hard to argue that time 'exists' as a physical entity with one dimension, but it's an extremely useful concept."

We agree that "the so-called time" was and is and will remain an extremely useful

concept, and that it is hard to argue that it has a physical entity, simply because it cannot be

proven that it has it.

As for the experimental meaning of "so-called time" as "movement", it is not only

important, but I think I have proven that it is a constant and uniform movement that man copied from the sun movement, for reasons of practicality in the design of the clocks. In no way is it a cyclic

movement, and does not include the movement cycle count. On the contrary, the empirical meaning of

"so-called time" is "continuous". The cyclic thing is a mistake that I think originates from the internal

movements of the clock, in which there are many cyclic movements that are mechanisms like the

pendulum that were designed in order to achieve the constant and uniform movement of the clock

hands over the numbered dial.

To measure something continuous it is essential to create units, in our case, the fundamental unit was given to us by nature. The Day, which is the constant and uniform movement of the sun from one sunrise to the next, which the Egyptians after a long process managed to divide into 24 hours ... In the measure of the "so-called time" at no time does it imply the count of the movement cycles. I repeat the movement is continuous, the hours are not parts of a cycle but the arbitrary divisions of a continuous movement, which can be divided because the "so called time" is a constant and uniform movement, no other movement could be divided in equal parts.

We agreed that what is slowed down is not the "so-called time" but the clocks, the physical reason of such slows is the speed inertia and or gravity that slows the internal movements of the clock respect to the similar one on the earth surface.

To the "so-called time" dilation I would call it slowing a clock or any other

movement traveling at high speed and at a greater distance from the center of gravity, compared to the similar clock to the one on the earth surface.

If we accept that the experimental meaning of "so-called time" is "movement" we are accepting that it is a physical property and exists as such, all physical existing things are in continuous motion in the universe.

All the planets have different physical conditions, different gravity etc. so

each place in the universe has its "called time". I think there is neither the "now" nor the "instant" I

accept them as a reference to a very short period of the "so called time", this is continuous.

You could read if you haven't already done it, my explanation of the paradox of the twins, I think it's the only physical possibility that this could be possible.

I think I prove that Time is a measurement system

I think I proved that Time is a measurement system, which was most likely unintentionally created by prehistoric man. This one exists only as long as man exists like all the systems he created. This system measures "so-called time" which is actually a constant and uniform movement. With units arbitrarily created by man as already I said.

Thank you for Reading my essay,

Héctor

Thank you very much for your Words.

I agree about the theories, they evolve and it is important to add and optimise our extrapolations, and also to study still and Always more the maths , physics and sciences to see a better generality. We search answers after all with humility inside this physicality like humble travellers from stars where our consciousness and knowledges evolve also. It is fascinating I must say, I cannot stop to search these answers, maybe the most important is to accept these limitations and accept only the proved things and make a difference with these assumptions mathematical, physical and philosophical that we cannot affirm in fact, it d be very odd and vanitious to affrim things not proved by experiments or mathematical proofs after all. This infinite eternal consciousness bless you also Professor Klingman, happy to know you , wish you also all the best for all, take care, friendly

Hi Edwin,

I wrote my essay to conform to the contest specifications. If you want to look at an actual article on my conceptual model, (which I hope you will) click here to download

Best Regards,

Harrison

Dear Edwin,

I have just finished reading your essay for the second time, and I must say I am impressed. I believe you are absolutely correct when you advocate focussing on ontology in order to make progress in physics. Be sure to read Israel Perez's essay as he makes some very similar points.

As you may have noticed in Marts Liena's essay on the aether, where he quotes some work of mine on time, I also developed a time-energy theory seven years ago. It works best when there is a preferred frame - so in your essay example with the kiddie car in the railcar, my time-energy theory totally supports your observation re the stationary observer looking through glass walls.

The support of ontology in developing physical theories is that we help dismantle paradoxes. The twin paradox is easily explained without resorting to using 'space-time' in the answer, as Einstein did.

There are no time paradoxes in my theory, but it is best explained when an aether is considered as a preferred system of reference (borrowing that term from Perez). I liked your quote from Mermin "...the concept of time is nothing more than a convenient...device for summarizing compactly all relationships holding between different clocks."

It is a concept I hold as well, as I believe in an infinitude of clocks, (a clock being any defined volume of space, each with its own individual tick depending on the embodied energy of that space).

I am interested in the physicality of dimensions (as distinct from their mathematical being). I think I understand three dimensions of space, as that is the world I inhabit. However, I do not understand zero, one or two, or four or more dimensions of space from an ontological point of view. To my point of view there is only volume, down to the smallest of scales, and volume means 3 space dimensions. String theories propose multiple curled up space dimensions, (comes from the maths), but I have no idea what these can be, as in my humble view there are only 3 space dimensions, and anything curled up inside a volume must have some other property that defines it. I do not mind having other types of dimensions (time, temperature, pressure, energy, etc) as long as their meaning is made clear.

I like your point "I am ever more convinced that many of our nasty problems in physics have very little to do with the issues on which this essay contest is based", which is also made by Perez.

As my entry was my first ever FQXI essay, I tried to stick to examples of undecidability, computability and unpredictability, in my considerations of a TOE, although I do wander on to the philosophical time topic of presentism which I currently endorse.

I am currently reading some of your previous FQXI essays and look forward to further discussions with you. Good luck in this one, your essay is most interesting.

Lockie Cresswell