Correction: I wrote ' Rotating the apparatus has made up and down outputs, left and right spatially but up and down are just names, they could be called red and green."

That should be - Rotating the apparatus has made up and down outputs, towards and away spatially but 'up' and 'down' are just names, they could be called red and green.

I have used left and right to designate the different apparatus relative locations, x orientation. A vertical field ,y orientation and towards and away are z orientation.

I think the up and down bit outputs have a different meaning from each other/ With north magnet top, south bottom there is a vertical field with direction north (top) to south (Bottom). An UP bit is obtained by motion of particle in the direction of north magnet. DOWN bits correspond to motion in the direction of the south magnet.

With the south magnet at the top, as in 180 degree rotation of one apparatus; there is still a vertical field but the north south direction of field is bottom to top of apparatus.

For input correlated pair; Left, north top, right, south top. Becomes output N(UP)S(UP) or N(DOWN) S(DOWN)

Gyro or Stats,

why must we assume a macro particle of Ag will necessarily align N/S vertically? with either the source initial polarization or the S-G directed field?

Superscribe a sphere over the 3-axis orthogonal and we construct 6 radii. Trace a great circle on a vertical plane through the sphere so that it intersects four of those radial points and call it 'L'ongitude with the UPper point, North. Trace another great circle on the horizontal plane through two of those points and the remaining two and call it 'E'quitorial. Now please, parallelize a second great circle on 'L' and rotate it either direction 45* on the Equator and protract an arc both CCW and CW from 'N' 120* on 'l' so that we have three points at 120* separation on that skewed great circle. It is immediately apparent that an ancillary radius from origin to either of the 120* points will be at 60* arc from the 'S'outh radius axis. But because the orthogonal is symmetric, there exists a 60* arc of separation from each of the adjacent radii axis on the 'E'quitorial plane, so that ancillary radius would intersect the midpoint of the sphere octant and the equilateral triangle of the facet if the 'E' points and 'S' were scribed with a connecting line. Spin that in your mind a while, there would be 8 such ancillary radii for a total of 14 axil radii dimensions, and any three that would be orthogonal and their diametric twins would be rotationally preceding some electromagnetic relationship.

In the environs of the S-G air gap there exist the conundrum of which way the electrostatic axis would become responsive, the Ag atom is electrically neutral. So a bit-flip would by necessity occur for either CCW or CW deflection on the horizontal plane of the air gap giving the lateral spread of results that has the distinctive profile of a traditional rolling pin that has been split lengthwise and separated into UP and DOWN clusters of results. Look at all the intriguing angles and rotations of that skewed great circle arrangement! What fun! jrc

Georgina,

thank you for placing your lines of reasoning to the disposal.

For obtaining anti-correlation in the 0 degree case, it is necessary that the particle to the left and the particle to the right exchange signs. Since we talk about particle pairs that all are send off from the source with opposite signs, in the 0 degree case each pair's particle sign must be inverted to obtain anti-correlation.

If only one sign is changed, one would obtain correlation - what is not the case as you know. If none of the two signs would be changed, then opposite particles would encounter the same environment - what does not match your scheme.

So for obtaining anti-correlation (what is the 0 degree case), the signs of both particles have to exchange. But this is in contradiction with the 180 degree case when the left apparatus remains unchanged but the right apparatus is inverted 180 degrees: the left apparatus will not change the sign of the left member of the first particle pair, as well as it didn't in the 0 degree case for that member. That is the logical contradiction and in my opinion it cannot be cured by switching some names or labels.

"If none of the two signs would be changed, then opposite particles would encounter the same environment - what does not match your scheme."

That should be

"If none of the two signs would be changed, then opposite particles would encounter the same environment and both would not be changed by that enviroment - what does not match your scheme."

"in the 0 degree case each pair's particle sign must be inverted to obtain anti-correlation."

could need a minor correction for the word "sign":

"in the 0 degree case each pair's particle signs must be inverted to obtain anti-correlation."

I don't see why sign reversal is necessary. Do you just mean they fly in opposite directions? They can maintain opposite spin doing that. As I'd have it the oppositely spinning particles both encounter the same xyz orientation of apparatus , they are both ,lets say horizontal but turned to face each other not alongside each other. So if considering the individuals rather than the whole system they (the individuals of a pair), do experience the same forces relative to their own orientation which maintains the anticorrelation.

180 degrees: Lets say the left apparatus is unchanged-gives same effect on particle as 0 degrees. Right apparatus inverted 180 degrees. Field still vertical but magnet poles reversed for right hand side. The output of both sides must now be correlated rather than anticorrelated. Key: L=left, R=right, N=north, S=south (magnetic poles of apparatus), UP/DOWN=bit outcomes.

LNUP, RSDOWN or LSDOWN, RNUP becomes L: NUP, RSUP or LSDOWN, RNDOWN

Each particle of a pair is experiencing the field direction n-s differently, whereas for 0 degrees even though the apparatus are facing each other n-s field orientation is the same. The particles align with the field they individually encounter. The opposite field direction causes an opposite (from what it would have been without field direction reversal of up/down direction of motion. But interestingly maintains the same apparent north or south seeking behaviour). All that is required is that the particle align its axis of rotation with n-s field direction. {Applies to all tests} 0 degrees and 180 are not comparable situation as for 0 both apparatus have the same n-s field direction.

John, replying to your post Nov. 13, 2020 @ 17:18 GMT I think your description of how to draw a silver atom is too complicated for me to actually draw and contemplate. Perhaps that was your intention. Besides it would be useful to work back from what happens, to what sort of arrangement would allow that.

How about picturing the atom, like a drone swarm of gyroscopes? Each particle is individual but the whole atom is held together in its form by the attraction of electrons to the nucleus and mutual repulsion of electrons, except for electron pairs with opposite axis of rotation orientation, That allowing a figure of eight dance composed of the two different rotations, which gives stable proximity rather than repulsion. All the electrons are paired thus, except for the lone outer one, that makes it an atom rather than an ion, That outer electron could have either spin. Which one can not be told as it depends on the viewpoint chosen to describe the atom; top down or bottom up.

The gyroscopic spins of the paired electrons will balance and cancel out any movement that would occur with just one. Depending on relative orientation of that single electron, parallel or anti- parallel to the magnetic field encountered, (it will adjust if necessary to be one of those options.) if the atom ensemble is considered weightless, as gravity is minuscule at this scale compared to thee other forces at play, the weightless atom will move with the singlet outer electron. Up or down with the electron not tilting as only a twisting force can change the orientation of the gyroscopic electrons.

You wrote Gyro or stats. I'd say both together looks promising.

    Georgina,

    "I don't see why sign reversal is necessary. Do you just mean they fly in opposite directions? They can maintain opposite spin doing that."

    No, i do not mean that they fly in opposite directions - they certainly do so. I am still talking about a specific particle pair whose both axis is aligned with the magnets orientation (in space) such that the pair's axis are PARALLEL to the magnets field lines - independent of the directions of these lines! Let's say that the orientation of these lines in space is straight along the z-axis. So i am still talking about the case where the particle pair's axis is in exactly the same direction in space as the magnets field lines, namely in the z-axis. So please keep in mind that all I will say refers to that special case of alignment!

    "All that is required is that the particle align its axis of rotation with n-s field direction."

    This "mechanics" causes the contradiction I spoke of and I will try to explain it again.

    0 degree case:

    According to your scheme, the particle pair flying towards the magnets has opposite spins for each particle. And according to the previous citation form you, one particle of the pair hasn't to change its axis, since it is already aligned with the n-s field direction. But that is not the case for the other particle, so that the other particle has to reverse its spin (axis). Remember we are talking here about the 0 degree case.

    CONSEQUENTLY the outcome would be CORRELATION (up/up or down/down) - what does not match the experimental results nor does it match your predictions. Therefore I wrote in my previous post that in the 0 degree case BOTH particles of a pair HAVE TO REVERSE their spins they have during the flight when encountering their respective magnets - to at all being able to achieve anti-correlation.

    Now I am talking about the 180 degree case:

    Imagine that we examine a pair that has LRED with RGREEN during the flight towards the measurement setup. Keep in mind what I wrote at the beginning about the special case of alignment with the z-axis.

    We can now compare the 0 degree case with your 180 degree case that you outlined in your post from Nov. 13, 2020 @ 00:24 GMT. There you wrote

    "Left apparatus unchanged ;right apparatus inverted 180 degrees"

    According to your case study in your post from Nov. 13, 2020 @ 00:24 GMT, if the left apparatus is unchanged and the right apparatus is inverted 180 degree, the CORRELATION of the outputs (up/up, down/down) is due to the change of the right apparatus - COMPARED to the 0 degree case.

    You made that very clear by writing

    "Right apparatus; changed to AntiCl (current turn [spin])"

    and

    "Right apparatus; changed to Cl (current turn [spin])"

    Consequently, in your 180 degree case, the particle to the left isn't allowed to CHANGE because otherwise you would obtain ANTI-CORRELATION and this would contradict your prediction as well as experimental results for the 180 degree case.

    So my logical conclusion for your 180 degree case is that LRED does not change, but RGREEN does change to RRED - to enable CORRELATION.

    The contradiction now can be found in the fact that for the 180 degree case LRED stays LRED, whereas in the 0 degree case LRED must change to LGREEN (as I explained at the beginning of my post!!). In the 0 degree case as well as in the 180 degree case we are still talking about the same pair that has LRED with RGREEN during the flight towards the measurement setups. And we still have the alignment with the z-axis I spoke of at the beginning of that post: both axis of the pair and both of the magnet's field lines have the same orientation in space (z-coordinate axis) for the 0 degree case as well as for the 180 degree case. Hence, the difference between the 0 degree case and the 180 degree case is that the right apparatus has been inverted by 180 degree - its field orientation has simply been inverted along the z-axis.

    A particle pair that has LRED with RGREEN during the flight towards the measurement setup, whereby the axis of rotation of both particles axis are oriented in the same direction as the magnets field lines (z-axis) is surely a rare case statistically. But nonetheless it WILL HAPPEN when enough particle pairs with the pairing LRED and RGREEN during flight encounter the 0 and 180 degree cases we are talking about.

    I think all this is not so difficult to see. One only has to use the same specific particle pair for the 0 degree case as well as for the 180 degree case (LRED and RGREEN during flight towards experimental setups) - and should not switch to the complementary particle pair (what would be LGREEN with RRED) when comparing the 0 degree case with the 180 degree case.

    OK. The particles are produced as a pair. We have been calling them anti-corelated. I mean they are opposite in some way; now presuming opposite gyroscopic rotation. They have an affinity with the rotation they were produced with that is sensitive to magnetic field orientation. The relation between rotation it was produced with and magnetic field orientation is maintained -so if the field direction is altered the particle adjusts to it, If the field is inverted the particle inverts maintaining their relationship.

    Let call the particle pairs twins, and because they are opposites, twin/anti-twin pairs. (T/At). We do not know which is the twin and which the anti, the abbreviation applies to both possibilities.[To try and more clearly differentiate particles and output bit results. ]

    0 degrees difference in apparatus angle. North magnet top. T/At pair.

    As they were produced as opposites they have different preference of orientation in the same direction of field; such as north magnet top. They will each adjust to the field they encounter. One of the many possible adjustments that could happen is both particles turn head over heels (or heels over head) to achieve their preferred relation with the field. [Not knowing if the anti parallel axes of rotation orientation are the same for every pair or random. My guess is random.] The other extreme is they are already perfectly parallel and anti-parallel to the field and do not need to adjust their orientation. In all cases the twin/anti-twin relation is maintained. Applying the right hand rule, (N)up: (S)down or (N)down: (S)up

    180 LHS N top RHS S top T/At pair

    LHS same as for 0 degrees. Lets assume for ease that no adjustment is needed and (as we have to chose one of the options for discussion) The LHS particle has antiCl. Turn (rotation) giving by Right hand rule (N) up flow.

    The partner finds the opposite field orientation S top. Reminder; With N top this particle, the opposite, with Cl. Rotation, would be (S) down So it maintains its preferred relation with field by inverting. Now by RH rule it is now turning antiCl. Flow (S) up. The bits are matching, up. But although the bits are deemed identical, the magnetic polarity involved in production is different.

    Georgina,

    thank you again for placing your lines of reasoning to the disposal.

    You wrote

    "0 degrees difference in apparatus angle. North magnet top. T/At pair.

    As they were produced as opposites they have different preference of orientation in the same direction of field; such as north magnet top. They will each adjust to the field they encounter. One of the many possible adjustments that could happen is both particles turn head over heels (or heels over head) to achieve their preferred relation with the field. [Not knowing if the anti parallel axes of rotation orientation are the same for every pair or random. My guess is random.] The other extreme is they are already perfectly parallel and anti-parallel to the field and do not need to adjust their orientation. In all cases the twin/anti-twin relation is maintained. Applying the right hand rule, (N)up: (S)down or (N)down: (S)up"

    In the following I again will refer to the case where the axis of rotation of both particles axis' are oriented in the same direction as the magnets field lines are for the 0 degree case.

    What I still do not understand in your derivation for the 0 degree angle case is why a pair whose two members have an opposite property right from the start should be able to maintain that opposite relationship when both members encounter identical environments (means same field directions for both magnets). So I do not understand why both particle pairs, namely the "twin" as well as the "anti-twin" pair both should NOT be altered in the 0 degree case (with the special alignment axis' with direction of field lines I am here referring to!) such that one member of that pair does not need to adjust its axis - whereas the other member has to adjust its axis by making an 180 degree turn of its axis.

    Please be patient with me since I still cannot see the logic that you have applied in your derivation for concluding that when each member of a pair has an opposite feature, then identical environments at both sides (identical field orientations of the two magnets) should lead to an identical reaction at both sides (for example the 180 degree turn necessary for both members of that pair). Maybe I am blind, but until now I cannot the logical reasons for such a derivation.

    So would it be possible that you explain your reasons behind that kind of logical mechanics for each of the two members of that distinctive pair which is considered by you having to turn left side axis as well as right side axis by 180 degree when it encounters the 0 degree case? I think that would be helpful for me. For simplicity you may wish to explain that by referring only to one of the two possible cases for the magnets' orientation, let's say North magnets top.

    Thank you very much in advance for taking the time explaining to me your derivation and also thank you again for already having been committed to lay out in more detail the explanatory scheme you have in mind.

    Stefan, thank you for your questions, I drafted quite a lengthy reply but think I am now ready to write my thoughts in paper for anyone/everyone to critique as they wish. Your questioning has been helpful in getting me to explain myself clearly and be consistent.. Hopefully that paper, which I will post on viXra, will answer all of your remaining questions.

    Georgina,

    I will certainly take a look at it when it is available. I already guess what the answer to my last question will be since i remember to have heard it at fqxi already - but i stay tuned for surprises!

    Georgina,

    Best of Luck in your efforts to associate gyroscopic effects with the electromagnetic spin states. There exists plenty of evidence that at quantum scales gyroscopic behavior might well be essentially "weightless". Beware, of course, that experiment to date only is capable of observing particulate matter in aggregate, and it is a far stretch to treat a clump of n? particles as exhibiting the characteristics of a hypothetical single particle, be it an elementary particle or the std model of atomic structure. That inconvenient truth is why QM treats a particle as being in multiple states, and refrains from speculation as to what realistically constitutes a primal particle.

    Orbital and Spin angular momentum differ in magnitude (generally speaking) but both boil down to a measure of response at right angle to direction of motion in relation to velocity. Spin angular momentum of the electron is said to be 'intrinsic' because it is calculable that the surface of the charge radius would have to be moving in excess of light velocity to exhibit the amount of lateral movement in a measured magnetic field. Obviously, what is lacking is the question of "why" rotation one way or another would produce a lateral response anyway! It's not like is has some kind of traction! So... maybe gyros have something to do with it (?) . :-) jrc

    Georgi,

    A principle problem that confronts efforts to model a realistic elementary particle becomes apparent in such experiments as Stern-Gerlach. It is acknowledged that macro experiments deal with aggregates of n? particles such as neutral Ag silver atoms, so we can deduce only so much applied to single entities. Cutting to the chase, let's look at either a proton or electron. The intrinsic spin, if taken as a real physical rotation would produce a magnetic field with a strength that is coefficient of charge and speed of rotation. If that axil orientation is Up and the rotation is CCW, then when/if flipped so that it is oriented Down, the rotation would be CW. The magnetic field orientation may well be in parallel with the rotational axis but regardless of Up or Down, the right angle deflection on the horizontal plane will always be CW veering towards the right when viewed from overhead of a magnet group with the South pole face of the upper magnet facing upwards. The Up/Down spin does not alter the negative charge response on that horizontal electrical plane. A proton will veer CCW to the left.

    So how can we model charge realistically? It really physically behaves as if it were moving in all directions on the surface of the charge radius. Or is there a wobble to a precessing orbital of the rotation axis that is intermediate to the orthogonals of an electron (or proton) moving through an external magnetic field?

    7 days later

    Dr. Agnew,

    This might be something you would find interesting, I ran across browsing with an eye for practical applications and developmental research. It cross references with physics.org so its a good start point.

    https://www.graphene-info.com/researchers-achieve-direct-visualization-quantum-dots-bilayer-graphene

    the site also has an investment guide to players in the emerging field. enjoy-jrc

      Quantum explanation of entanglement would also have faster than light communication of particles. Gyroscopic motion can do away with faster than light communication. It could also replace faster than light intrinsic spin. A 'conducting' gyroscope has a propensity to rotate a particular way but also responds to the magnetic environment. It can turn and exhibit a different flow direction, Such as when exposed to a 90 degree field or returning to a vertical field afterwards. I now think geometry is important and not accounted for in the statistics. The rotating essence of an electron is not current or 'anti-current' but can act in such a way that the electron responds to the magnetic field by flowing in a direction that needs adding to the velocity through the apparatus.

      Hi Georgina,

      I am about to read your paper now and I have trouble to understand what kind of gyroscope your reference [1] uses. Is that spinning wheel mounted into two or three gimbals? And are the output gimbals of a free or fixed configuration?

      Independent of the answer, it seems to me that when that gyroscope isn't connected in any way to the silver atom, then it is impossible for it to transfer its changes of momentum to the silver atom. I think that such a connection is needed physically, since otherwise the silver atom cannot be forced to change its direction of flight. That is equivalent to the gyroscopes used at the ISS, since these gyroscopes are mounted to the station to transfer their changes of momenta to the station. Motors move the axis of the spinning wheel such that the momentum transfer to the space station's orientation in space results in a rotational move of the station. The motors that you envision are produced by a changing magnetic field. But unless the gyroscopes rotational move is not coupled to the silver atom, the silver atom will not change its direction of flight.

      It is clear to me that in order to avoid an angular velocity that exceeds the speed of light by multiple orders of magnitude, the gyroscope has to be declared weightless, as you did in your paper. That would mean that the gyroscope freely moves in the outer shell of the silver atom. I cannot see how all these assumptions should lead to a coordinated momentum transfer onto the silver atom so that the latter is at all able to change its orientation of flight to contribute to the pattern Stern and Gerlach found experimentally. Even if that angular velocity would be of a modest kind, one nonetheless had to explain why the change of the spin axis can be seen with human eyes, means why that change is so that slow. I mean, a silver particle goes through the SG Magnet that fast that in my opinion there isn't enough time for a spin axis to be oriented parallel or anti-parallel to the magnetic field!?

      If these questions of momentum transfer cannot be reconciled with your model, it would not make sense to further investigate what your model says about the 0, 90 and 180 degree cases. So I decided to ask you these questions before i further read what your model assumes for these realtive angles.

      Kind regards

      Stefan

      The gimbals of a supported gyroscope with weight allow it freedom of movements. They are not needed by a free-floating one I'm not proposing that an electron is like the gimbal-ed gyroscopes we are familiar with. Ides for the silver atom in the appendix of the paper. The paper itself concentrates on the electron as the test particle. I put forward the idea that all of the electrons are pairs wit opposite rotations whose angular momenta cancel each other; except for the outer electron which is un-cancelled rotation. Gravity has extremely little force at these scales and conditions (i.e. compared with the magnetic field and strong nuclear force) essentially weightless it moves with the outer electron. Movement due to interaction of the rotation of the 'essence of electron (like but not current in a coil ) with the magnetic field producing force.