Quantum Physics and the End of Reality by Sabine Hossenfelder and Carlo Rovelli

if words are the comunication between people what are the parts that proteins are a communications of

(person A) communicate with the word "fvjakdsngkjsadn" with ( Person B )

(cell A or i don know ) comunicate with the help of protein "fvjakdsngkjsadn" with (cells or dont know B)

to skew the comparison to an extreme

( whatever category with a boundary A) communicate with the lifetime works of the person with the name "fvjakdsngkjsadn" ( whatever category with a boundary B)

find the categories such that is a correct description/ comparison

Yesterday I watched the third interview by Lex Fridman with Elon Musk. About half way through, they're talking about Tesla autopilot, neural nets, self driving cars. Elon mentions how the photons are used to make,what he calls, a vector space, that is used to choose a safe route. Engineers working in Robotics, self driving etc. Must be aware that the generated vector space is not where the photons have come from. There is some talk about the cameras of the car and human vision, including human visual gap filling.They are working towards full 360 video. Working towards neural net interpretation of photons density changes rather than generated vector space map to identify things.

Georgina Woodward
You remain unclear on the concept. The results are not being compared to a theory prediction, they are being compared to a theorem prediction; a theorem (Bell's theorem) that has been proven to be true. There is, as you say, some probability that a mere theory may be false. But there is no possibility whatsoever, that a proven theorem may be false. So the only remaining question is, is that proven theorem, even relevant to the actual, physical problem?

For example, there is no doubt that the Pythagorean theorem is correct, but is it even relevant to the problem of determining the distance to be traveled, between two points, when the travel path between those two points, turns out to be something other than a straight line?

Even if you have a proven "Magic rabbit theorem", it is not going to yield a lot of correct predictions about what might come out of a "Magic fruit hat", that only produces a random selection of fruits, rather than rabbits. The rabbit theorem is not wrong, but it is irrelevant. Instead of "testing" Bell's Theorem, physicists should be testing quantum results against Shannon's Theorem, not Bell's theorem; because Shannon's is the relevant theorem, if you ever hope to understand quantum phenomenon.

Just as the Pythagorean theorem will not yield accurate distance predictions for non-straight paths, Bell's theorem will not yield accurate correlation predictions for non-identical particles; but Shannon's theorem does.

Robert McEachern i have done excavations around what are the things that you mention, by seeing a couple of papers, i have not tried to remember/ understand exactly , however if by theorem , you refer to shanon capacity of communicating symbols, this does not tell much about the symbols/ states/ figures / distinctions,(things that end/change); a number is the outcome, and in a previous post ive said why numbers letters are bad . now i check to see. confirmed

marcovici alexandru

this does not tell much about the symbols/ states/ figures / distinctions

Shannon proved that you cannot use any of those things, if you desire a system to be reliable (AKA deterministic).
You have to use NOISE, not numbers, not pictures, not letters, not figures, not symbols, you must use white noise, in order to reliable cause any effect, near the "Shannon Limit" of Information Content.

Georgina Woodward

if there is a pre -measurement relation influencing outcomes instead entanglement is an incorrect hypothesis.

There is a pre-measurement relation influencing the outcomes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The particles are not identical twins!!!!!!!!!!

Both Bell's theorem and Quantum Theory have ignorantly assumed that they are!!!!!!!!!

That assumption is false! That is the problem!

Robert McEachern

Shakespeare once wrote that "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

He could have been speaking about physicists' lack of understanding of the relationship between math and physics.

The problem I have just revealed, is, in REALITY the exact same problem that I have pointed out previously, in regards to Quantum Theory: one does not need to fret over an inability to correctly recover some supposed information, that one knows was never there to begin with.

When an algorithm developer (or Mother Nature) knows, a priori, that there is no "needle in the haystack" (because they created the haystack themselves, and know they never put a needle into it!) their algorithm never needs to bother, with ever even trying, to "find the needle in the haystack"; just output the "starting execution" signal, then output the "halting execution" signal, to indicate that all the solutions have been found, all zero, "0", of them. And the poor, observing physicists are all stunned, and left wondering "how could it (reality) have possibly discovered that?!" all the while being totally oblivious to the fact that something that created "a haystack with no needles to be found" does not have to fret over trying to find any.

Static "math theorems" and static "laws of physics", that never change in time, are like computer programs that are never allowed to actually execute; they can never cause any effect to happen, in REALITY. Like the ultimate hacker, REALITY keeps overwriting its own code, while it is being executed, and never halts, and can never be adequately characterized by unchanging Math Theorems and Laws of Physics.

So, as Godel pointed out in his famous Incompleteness Theorem, no fixed-size set of axioms can adequately characterize everything. But a REALITY that keeps overwriting and enlarging its own set of axioms may, over a great deal of time, completely change its own code, its own nature - the Nature of Reality.

Georgina Woodward
I'm thinking about the kind of reality that exists without need for measurement or observation for its independent existence, . created as a particle pair the individuals have same or opposite absolute orientation

So what do you think will happen, when those particle pairs are created with the same or opposite orientation, but with every individual particle having a slightly different, random "shape", that has been very cleverly engineered, in accordance with Shannon's proven recipe/theorem, to cause gross, non-random, systematic errors, in many of your subsequent measurements? Do you think that those pairs, will still correlate in the same manner, as pairs that have not been "messed with", in a way that has been specifically engineered to alter those very correlations?

That is the "kind of reality that exists" in reality.

Georgina Woodward

I don't know...

"The trouble with people is not that they don’t know but that they know so much that ain’t so." Josh Billings

I have been giving you a link to "a relevant paper", repeatedly, for years. For once, please actually read it. Study it. Then actually download the computer code and run it; exactly as instructed in the short, easy to read paper. In just thirty minutes, you can reproduce the entire experiment/demonstration, right in front of your own eyes, on your own computer screen. That is far, far less time, than you have been devoting to all your futile speculations. Stop speculating and just run the demonstration. It has been freely available on fqxi.org, for seven entire years now, and not a single person out of the thousands of people that have examined it over the years, have ever publicly claimed to have found any flaw in it - quite the contrary. The supposedly impossible results, were independently verified within just a few weeks of my original fqxi post regarding this, back in August, 2016.

Reality does not work the way you think it works.
Reality does not work the way any physicists think it works.
Reality (deterministic behaviors) works the way Shannon proved that it must work, 75 years ago.

And Reality stops behaving deterministically, and starts behaving with "quantum weirdness", right where Shannon's Theorem proven that it must - at one bit of Information - Shannon's definition of Information - not physicists!

Robert McEachern
Sorry for asking. i did not know you would think that relevant to the discussion You present A Classical System for Producing“ Quantum Correlations” Robert H. McEachern, yet I am taking about the problem of proposing that entanglement happens as an explanation for correlation of 'seen this way' relative, detection matches., When using the quantum physics idea that the correlations found need explaining, as they do not show each individual outcome as random. > Robert McEachern The supposedly impossible results, were independently verified within just a few weeks of my original fqxi post regarding this, back in August, 2016."
OK, those results are found. I don't disagree that the results were as described. They are as they are but don't explain for themselves why.
Already i have talked about the numbers of matches found referring to a simple Bell's test. Different angle outcomes that happen by chance to correspond can not be counted as being the same as matches at the same orientation even though they have the same 'value'. Therefore we have two categories treated as one. We have correlations due to absolute orientations and correlations due to chance. Hats and scarves. The existing particles and existing experimenter and apparatus within independent of measurement absolute space. Why is the fraternal twin particle explanation needed in addition?

Robert McEachern Reality does not work the way you think it works.
Reality does not work the way any physicists think it works.
Reality (deterministic behaviors) works the way Shannon proved that it must work, 75 years ago.

Firstly maybe. Secondly I think that is true for the majority of mainstream physicists, working with Einstein's relativity and those working with quantum physics.
Thirdly I'm just not sure of that.

Robert McEachern

There is no Physics, in physics!

The world is not operating physically. It is operating symbolically! All the way down! Like the discrete letters of an alphabet, embedded within a continuous, cursive script.

And each individual letter, MUST appear to "the Uninformed" as white noise!!!

Noise is not causing problems with measurements! Noise is the language of Reality. All of it - from top to bottom.

"Abandon all hope, all ye who enter here!" Dante

Stop talking with Measurements. Stop talking with Calculus.
Physicists need to learn to speak "Noise", not Measurements
Physicists need to learn to speak "Noise", not Calculus.

Shannon will teach them how, if they ever bother to listen.

Once you learn to speak the language of Mother Nature, the language of Noise, nothing gets "Lost in Translation" anymore, into the inadequate language of Modern Physics. EVERYTHING, not just Physics, starts to make Perfect Sense.

All of physics, has merely discovered how to make perfect copies of Mother Nature's hand-written, cursive scripts; how to write "laws" that merely describe, what is being observed. But only Shannon ever discovered how to ACTUALLY READ that script! How to cause deterministic effects, and thereby EMERGE from the old-Reality of the Chaos of random noise, into a new-Reality of Deterministic noise.

After working through dozens of pages of standard, complicated math dealing with measurements and noise and probability and error-correcting codes, Shannon finally... finally... obtained ENLIGHTENMENT:

The net effect of all that crap, was just to construct symbols that ended-up behaving, statistically, just like white noise!

Hence, you can just skip all that crap, and use actual noise samples to write perfectly deterministic scripts; scripts that could be perfectly read (with no Uncertainty whatsoever), even when submerged under an entire ocean of other noise! Deterministic behaviors can been created, entirely out of The Chaos itself!

That is what a "quantum of information" is - a packet of noise, Mother Nature's Alphabet, riding upon some sort of physical "carrier", that looks, to all the ignorant "Uninformed" (AKA physicists), just like random noise, but can be perfectly (with no "uncertainty") read by the "Informed", to induce deterministic behaviors to emerge from seeming chaos!

Quantum Physics and the End of Reality...

Indeed. The end of all reality as we know it - as we have incorrectly conceived of it.
"The trouble with people is not that they don’t know but that they know so much that ain’t so." Josh Billings

From the ashes of entirely random, physical behaviors (Chaos), REALITY, like the ultimate hacker, has managed to continuously overwrite and enlarge its own "operating system" (Laws of Nature) using the language of pure noise (the only "material" available, in a Cosmos, consisting of nothing but CHAOS!) to produce a new, ever-changing reality, that now includes an ever-growing set of entirely, deterministic behaviors. The Great Phoenix, rises from the ashes. So, the ancient legends are true - although some things were indeed, lost in translation.

For centuries, philosophers and physicists, theologians and politicians, have all been searching for "that which is necessary" to explain reality. But nothing is necessary (think about that: there is something within nothing/chaos!); other than one thing being sufficient. Entirely sufficient: Noise just needs to behavior like noise.

But no one on this Earth every knew that one, simple, astonishing fact; until Shannon achieved ENLIGHTENMENT.

Robert McEachern
i am suprised by your reply. Very expressive, I'm sorry you feel so frustrated. i came here to expand on 'Thirdly,," I' don't know that particle pairs traveling in opposite directions in a vacuum is comparable to radio waves in air or electricity in a wire. Doing similar thing numerically takes away the physics. I'm not persuaded to give up on material reality There isn't just outputs of an equation or processing without any source of input, just randomness. There isn't just the chaotic 'data pool' prior to receipt. There isn't just material existence. All 3 play their part , allowing sensory perception of the world. Human's are embodied and think and feel.

Georgina Woodward

Georgina,

You, like almost all of humanity, are trapped in a huge maze of our ancestors creation. A "reality" maze, with no entrance or exit. You, like everyone else, was born inside it. And it was built inside an even larger such maze, and that within another even larger...

You can either stumble around lost within it, for your entire life (like the physicsts have been doing for the past century), looking for a non-existent exit, or you can smash your way out. The choice is yours. You can either be like Alexander the Great and simply destroy this Gordian Maze, or you can remain forever, bound within it.

Shannon gifted us all with a weapon, powerful enough to smash the maze. Use it. Yes, it is an awful prospect to have to rebuild everything, from the shattered pieces. But there is no other way out. Like the "Quantum Reality" puzzle I posted above, individual pieces can not be moved into an alternative new configuration, one-at-a-time, that "fits inside the box". Evolutionary changes are not possible. Only a revolutionary, all encompassing change, will ever suffice, to free you from the maze and provide you with an opportunity to rebuild it correctly. That is just the Nature of Reality, like it or not. And very few indeed, like it.

I'm not persuaded to give up on material reality

You do not have to. You only have to give up on your unwarranted belief, that you have ever inherited a reasonable Picture of Reality. But like most people, that seems to you, to be an even worse alternative. Like most people, you fervently hope to save the Picture of Reality that you inherited, and have invested your whole life in trying to maintain - like an old British Lord, trying to keep his old, inherited, crumbling castle, from collapsing, rather than tearing it down and building a new one. You can save it. But only at the cost of being forever trapped within your old, worn down, woefully inadequate Picture of Reality. And never even catching a glimpse of Actual Reality. The choice Is yours. The irony in that, is that all the people like yourself, are running around with smart-phones etc, that would never work, except by exploiting Shannon's discovery. You all seem to believe that those communications signals, would appear like just a very fast sequence of ones and zeroes, maybe with a little bit of error correction thrown into the mix. They do not. Just as Shannon said they must, they would appear to you, as meaningless noise. In fact, in many cases, your concept of "measuring" them, would fail to even establish they they exist, all around you. Using your antiquated "Picture of Realty", you would never observe anything at all, other than noise. There is nothing there to ever even be "measured", via the hopelessly naive concept of "measurement" that you and physicists, are clinging to.

Georgina Woodward

David Eagleman has shown perceived occurrence of events...

The problem is, if you can never even "perceive" that an "event" ever even occurred, that will never work. But that is exactly what many of Shannon inspired signals "look" like - events that have never occurred; just static noise that looks no different than if there actually were no events ever taking place.

As you can see I'd like to make quite a few modifications not just take what i have inherited as valid

I have indeed seen that, for a long time. The problem is, I have also seen that neither you, nor the physicists, in spite of your ardent desire, do not have the slightest clue of how to actually accomplish making any modifications that will get you out of the maze; because you all simply refuse to ever look at the incredible gift, that Shannon handed to you, because doing so, requires you to trash your entire inheritance, plus all the work you have put into it, to date.

That is why it has long been observed, as in Planck's principle, that revolutionary changes are usually only accepted, by people that have no such inheritance and have never wasted any of their own effort, trying to maintain them. No one ever succeeded in indoctrinating them (though many may have tried) into believing that their elders' ancient, sacred idols can never be desecrated and thrown in the trash - so they just go ahead and do exactly that. And they can succeed in doing so, precisely because there are no Laws of Nature prohibiting it - because there are no static Laws of Nature at all!

Reality is a process, still under construction; always was, always will be.

Georgina Woodward

Sorry, I don't see how Shannon's work can be used

There is nothing to be sorry about. Ignorance is bliss. Just be happy that others that have seen how Shannon's work can be used, have provided you with your phone, TV, Internet, etc., that add to your bliss. Be happy that your paycheck never accidentally gets deposited in someone else's account - as the result of a bit-error in a transmitted account number - a bit-error that Shannon discovered a sure-fire means to prevent.

And as for living creatures - Mother Nature discovered Shannon's technique, eons before Shannon ever did - you see it in action with every DNA double-helix copying operation. Or do you believe that all the zillions of potential mutations (bit-errors) have be avoided, by magic? And how do you suppose the signals flowing through your brain, do not become hopelessly garbled, by all the zillions of copying errors that would occur, in the process of being sent from one neuron to another and another and...

Ever wonder why neuron signals look like random spikes - like noise? As Shannon proved, only noise-like signals can be copied, without frequent errors, in a high-noise environment, like a brain. Shannon's technique is what makes complex life possible. Now you know. It is what makes all of Reality possible (well, at least all the deterministic parts) Now you know. And when even Shannon's technique becomes insufficient to prevent frequent copying errors, determinism itself, repeatable cause-and-effect processes, existing as a physical phenomenon, beginf to self-destruct, resulting in "the biggest, baddest boogey-man of them all - "Quantum Weirdness!" Now you know.