cristi marcovici
But, what are numbers? Your “page numbers” are not numbers: they are symbols, i.e. special arrangements of matter (in this case, ink) that human beings recognise only after their brains have processed the light waves coming from the page. These are symbols, “numbers” that only exist from the point of view of human minds: the laws of nature don’t know about these “numbers”.

The numbers that the laws of nature know about, the real-world numbers of physics, are a different thing. Real-world numbers are things that exist, but people only know about real-world numbers when people measure a real-word category like mass or relative position: real-world numbers can’t be measured, only categories can be measured. Real-world numbers can’t be measured, but they can be represented with number symbols. Also, the numbers that only exist in people’s minds can be represented with number symbols.

Computer programming and analysis is, firstly, all about being able to notice the difference between the real world “out there” of people and things, and the symbols that a computer programmer would use to represent and analyse the world. If you are going to program a human-computer interface, you would usually need to be the type of person who inherently appreciates the difference between man-made symbols on the one hand, and the real world on the other hand: most people don't really understand that there is a difference.

    https://sign2mint.de/entry/Zahl/5750242766511595:701

    a friend that studies acting told me once , why i don't pay attention to people when i speak with them ,
    maybe i do i may not be good at showing it back

    firstly, numbers are how you react when you hear /use this word, by some chances(mainly due to interactions) many people happens to react the same way ,

    after many hours at computer that use numbers (that means installing programs, tweaking,scripting, adjusting settings, ) doing a food receipt is like, a ! i have to move this distance make this action for that amount of time ,it is me doing this task ? this is real life ? am i in a movie?

    the laws of nature don’t know about these “numbers”.

    secondly imagine doing an experiment that ties / connect/ binds/ this number representations to some physical laws , it may happen only via a decoder , i'm not completely excluding the possibility that in fact have a physical meaning .
    by studying handwriting( calligraphy / graphology), i was pondering a couple of days ago(the second/third time, firstly was a couple of years ago) about a device that intermediate (the normal handwriting
    in to tiny small handwriting, in order to the make the most out of the surface paper, because we can read a much smaller font than we are capable of writing ourselves, quickly, with bare, pencil and paper, hands,( like a remote surgery haptic shrink interface for writing ) , i have small hands by default settings my handwriting tends to be ugly and not pleasing for reading.

    in order for us to evolve to have hands that write with certain shapes and sizes , the evolution must obey physical laws , therefore,i believe it could have not been that much different in a different timeline ; so i'ts a given we live in an universe where there are people writing with letters of size from 3 mm up to 1 cm , not sure about others alphabets /writing but the height and volume of letters looks approximately similar

    thirdly going back to the first point

    what are numbers?

    neuroscience, just reading the news,- graphs are better.

    numbers are functions, in the case of book page , the function is to help the reader find the content ,if you explore other kinds of book bindings (or utilization modes like for example an accordion book) the book get handled differently ) if you read the paper online /computer device , the content presentation (/interaction experience)could be varied by much

    or differently said, numbers are skewed / deformed/ stretched , graphs,

    what is a graph than ? , a surface with multiple,high bandwidth simultaneously interacting points, in this comparison, a number is just a point.

      cristi marcovici
      Unlike the universe of nonsense that can exist inside people’s heads, physics seeks to establish a firm basis upon which to understand the world. Physics has in practice found that 3 distinct types of information are necessary in order to describe the world: categories (like energy, momentum, mass, position), relationships, and numbers. These are 3 distinct aspects, which can’t be collapsed down into 1 or 2 aspects: the numbers can’t be collapsed down into the relationships; the categories can’t be collapsed down into the numbers or the relationships. So, what you say about numbers (“numbers are functions”) is incorrect.

      This is complicated by the fact that, in order to understand the world, physics needs to represent the world with man-made symbols. But unlike the genuine, powerful, real-world categories, real-world relationships and real-world numbers behind gravity and atomic energy, these mere symbols of categories, relationships, and numbers have no power at all.

          to be honest i don't know what numbers are i saw many definitions for example https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/ETCS

          to misquote joel david hamkins (logician), why not going with all the definitions in parallel

          if you consider counting aspect for distinguishing with relations , graphs can be infinite , imagine something like a finite graph blob that goes infinite in one of the edges like a line, in other edge makes a start like a line but ends up infinite like a surface , the important idea here is at once, simultaneously, concomitantly, if counting is dependent on the human voice trrrr: step step step step,

          by the limits of the eye retina image gets to make its impression by taking pictures : image, image ,image, image
          or graph graph graph graph

          _Unlike the universe of nonsense that can exist inside people’s heads, _

          accordion book

          !the danger of reading! is that by reading your comment in a way get to be a little bit like you , the act of deciphering a human(code) is an emphatic act more or less,
          unfortunately, thats why is a danger , i believe is irreversible ,the human memory has difficulties at managing forgetting or the version control of the modification, so to say this is my steady fixed position ,i'm going to compare it with an other opinion, and not being influenced by it at all

          the function is to help the reader... bla bla bla

          plural versus singular
          in this language english the, german der die das ,or french la, is like a handle , that accentuate the unicity, singularity ,the only thing , the area of linguistics studying this sort of things is called pragmatics

          Lorraine Ford
          (continued)

          Moreover, regarding the symbols used in computers:
          In the real world, these 3 necessary aspects of real physical world information (category, relationship and number) exist together in the one spot (so to speak). But in computers:

          • The many different real-world categories, relationships and numbers are symbolised using just one real-world category i.e. voltage. (Voltage, in an appropriately arranged setup, is made to represent binary digits; and these binary digits in turn are arranged to represent categories, relationships and numbers);
          • These symbols of the 3 necessary aspects of information are held physically separated in the computer, because a computer can only processes symbols of the information.

          How could science be different? As I say in my essay, science could be different if physicists resisted the urge to be dazzled by the superficial appearances of man-made objects (AIs), and instead looked deeply into the nature of reality AND looked deeply into how people manipulate and arrange reality.

              Lorraine Ford
              Re information versus symbols of information:

              When it comes to the physics of the world, the 3 necessary aspects of real-world information are categories (like mass, position, momentum, energy), relationships between the categories, and numbers that apply to the categories. These three aspects are seemingly necessary because a number cannot imply a relationship, and vice versa; a relationship cannot imply a category and vice versa; and a category cannot imply a number, and vice versa. In the real physical world, these three necessary aspects of real-world information are not held separately. And without these three necessary real-world aspects (category, relationship and number), any purportedly existing “information” is not actually information.

              When it comes to how people represent the real world, people must use written, spoken or binary digit symbols to represent information, and the three necessary aspects of information must be separately symbolised. Obviously, computers/ AIs are not processing the real-world information (i.e. the categories, relationships and numbers) that the world is constructed out of. But computers/ AIs are not just processing mere symbols of real-world information: computers/ AIs are processing mere separate symbols of the separated-out aspects of real-world information.

              In the real physical world, the 3 necessary aspects of information are not held separately. But the so-called “information” processed by computers/ AIs is not at all like real-world information; in fact, the purportedly existing “information” processed by computers/ AIs is not actually information at all.

                  Lorraine Ford
                  The abovementioned three necessary aspects of information in the real world are: categories; context/ mathematical relationships between the categories; and numbers that apply to the categories. But, these three aspects of information are passive, so how do you make a real-world moving system out of real-world passive information?

                  In order to make a moving system, there is a fourth necessary aspect of passive information: logical connection/ knowledge, represented by the symbols AND, OR, IS TRUE. These four separate aspects of passive information are necessary because none of the four aspects implies any other aspect. So, the logical connection/ knowledge aspect of passive information might be represented as something like:
                  “category1 = number1 AND category2 = number2 IS TRUE”.

                  But to make a moving system, a fifth necessary aspect of a system is required in order to move the numbers, because no other aspect of the system is actually moving the numbers. It might be thought that the mathematical relationships are moving the numbers, but as explained in my essay, despite the delta symbols, these mathematical relationships between categories don’t come into effect unless and until one or more numbers are moved.

                  Number movement in a system is represented by the symbols: IF, THEN. Once again, these five separate aspects of a moving system are necessary because none of the five aspects implies any other aspect. So, number movement in a system might be represented as something like:
                  “IF category1 = number1 AND category2 = number2 IS TRUE, THEN category2 = number3”,
                  where the “IF” part represents the passive information situation, and the “THEN” part represents the number movement/ change.

                  But the idea that a single number change event at the beginning of the universe could power all subsequent number change in the universe can’t be supported. More realistically, when one or more numbers are changed, there might be a ripple in the pond effect where other numbers change due to the mathematical relationships between categories, but the ripple will die down, and the system will grind to a halt, needing further number input in order to keep the system moving.

                  So it seems clear that, when a whole SYSTEM is analysed, as opposed to just focussing on mathematical relationships between categories (i.e. laws of nature), a whole system requires a source of number change. I.e. new numbers need to be continually input in order for the system to keep moving. This is a different way of thinking about “quantum randomness”, which is essentially the input of new numbers to the system.

                      a month later

                      Lorraine Ford
                      Physicists have built up a complicated picture of how they think the world works, out of nothing but measurements (which consist of numbers, that apply to categories of information like momentum, mass, energy, charge etc.) and experimentally verified mathematical relationships that seem to exist between these categories of information.

                      With their delta symbols, the equations that represent these mathematical relationships say that IF some numbers that apply to some of the categories change, THEN other numbers that apply to other categories in a particular relationship will instantly change so that the correct ratios specified by the mathematical relationships are always maintained and never violated. In other words, despite the complicated picture of the world that physics has developed, physics can’t tell you why the numbers would ever change in first place, OR why the numbers would continue to change. Physics just assumes number change, without being able to give a proper detailed account of how and why the numbers change.

                      This is physics’ Achilles heel: as I say in my essay, physics can’t explain why the numbers are changing, i.e. why the world is moving and changing.

                          This is physics’ Achilles heel: as I say in my essay, physics can’t explain why the numbers are changing, i.e. why the world is moving and changing.

                          heading towards a destination is giving a support sensation for counting ,
                          this action is the first major accomplishment for any human: to stand and to walk ,
                          unfortunately, (what we are given2) (with1), we are stuck ! 1 2
                          🟢
                          || \ _ 💐
                          | \
                          |_ |_ ,,,,,,,,;,,,;,,,,,;,,,,;,,,,,;,;,,,,,;,
                          1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2

                          it may be that seeing the world(universe) with numbers ,
                          physicists accomplish rocky soil stabilization in slope engineering for mountain roads,
                          each number is like a metal rod needle that keep the soil fixed , there is an idea of what happens(what is) in between the fields of parallel rods , the actual content is only an hypothesis and cylindric tube of the material have to be /removed/ bored , to replace it with numbers spikes

                          the (numberlines) spikes are not sharp at the end, instead are like thread cones wider and wider and heavy the more distance they travel/ extend.
                          pointing towards the edges of the (knowledge )universe

                          🦩 ,,;,,,,,;,;,,;,,,,,;,,,;,,,,,;,;🥀

                          Lorraine Ford
                          How could science be different? Well, just like mathematicians tell themselves a fairy story that their equations and numbers represent a self-sufficient world which could exist without human beings moving and manipulating the equations and numbers, physicists tell themselves a fairy story that their equations and numbers could represent a self-sufficient, moving world. Physics could start by not telling themselves fairy stories.

                          Clearly, the world is not the purely mathematical world that physicists imagined and hoped and believed it to be, because number movement can’t be explained by any sort of equations or functions. Just like mathematicians are wilfully blind to their own presence which animates the mathematics, physicists are wilfully blind to their assumption that the numbers just move, and that no explanation is required.

                          All that physicists can say is that IF some numbers change, THEN other numbers will instantly change, so that there is no violation of the ratios/ mathematical relationships that physicists have experimentally found to exist. But physicists can’t explain the “IF” bit: why any number would ever change in the first place, and why the numbers would continue to change.

                            letters and words are in the same category like the comment with numbers only here is a lot more complicated

                            so imagine a device that can take and print pictures that zoom in or out magnify or minimize and those can replace parts of the text fast in a special typewriter , than after that there can be made extra links connecting the surface with various colors.

                            firstly the human language does not need such complicated story telling
                            secondly the human language does not need such complicated story telling

                            human language has evolved in an environment with certain grammar based on voice and brain constraints
                            to solve certain problems

                            the environment is such that the actual language is more or less sufficient,
                            maybe the fantasies match the complexity of the environment and culture
                            why sci fi has not been written in the 15 century ?

                            fantasies , play a role in generating and using artificial models , activate.use the imagination
                            that is the first step in science for science new hypothesis generation

                            what is the pathway towards better imagination ,
                            computer programs externalize / multiply the imagination , the control is those who program them
                            that fixes certain imagination structures, by having programable hardware that uses letters is a huge impairmant

                            some care only about the result , some wants imagination options i'm in the second category

                            the units off measure used in physics are connected with the entire discussion
                            more fantasy might mean more complicated/ advanced science

                            All that physicists can say is that IF some numbers change, THEN other numbers will instantly change, so that there is no violation of the ratios/ mathematical relationships that physicists have experimentally found to exist. But physicists can’t explain the “IF” bit: why any number would ever change in the first place, and why the numbers would continue to change.

                            drop a rock in a water pond lots of changes happens without any number

                            Life is like one bad adventure. however the graphics is unmatched
                            what would be a physics engine based on physical hardware like mixing two solutions that do all the" number calculations"
                            .
                            so i look in to doing hyper graphics maybe related with language/ (inventing new interaction), what it would be the best for me given my actual experience and goals ?

                            will make a few days , maybe a week pause of verifying what is written here on this forum, i assume that among readers are people that can understand and help.

                            at the admission at a math bachelor in 2017 ive tried to solve/explain all the problems without any letters, only with sequence of drawings. if the admission hat one or two extra hours i would have completed all the tasks.

                            the problem i had was how i should explain with no letters that i'm solving with drawings, typically for example in a geometry problem there are names with letters for the sides of a figure so i used a type of naming with no letters , the problem that an admission like that assume (reading ability)( speech comprehension so the first step was to show how i understand the request than to actually show lots of transofrmations for drawings , than solving the equations with no algebra , because the request was in a way evident after the reading and the drawing showed all the answers to first part of the test , i had to make pathways of evident geometrical transformations that are typically called a proof , the result of that exam was under the necessarily minimum for passing the test .

                            confirming what is the expected result is a communication bias caused by react quickly language / behavior/ habits , there is no intent in developing a communication in itself, only the message matter.

                            💬 abcdEfghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqRstuvwxyz 🗨️

                            💬 👂️ 🗨️
                            example1

                            • i'm going to say something with voice, tongue teeth, and face , look at the other person if he is listening , use the ear to listen to my own voice and to the response about 5 second with ten words after that i will wait about 2,3 second for a reply,
                              example2
                            • we have a video streaming platform where people can make videos sound and images and other can writte comments
                              example 3
                            • we are a respectable institution we evaluate prospective students at the highest standards using written tests
                              example 4
                            • we are a research lab with advanced terminology and technology

                            here i'm changing the subject
                            a problem is that once you understand this interfaces there could be an intent to fake ,
                            so in a one to one conversation a fake smile is detectable because m the wire circuitry is for smile is closer to emotional
                            center and a fake one could make a detour ,

                            the genuine association of the code(language) with the internal (emotional) states
                            , looked from outside how this appear and unveil and what roles plays the self awareness

                            is the message really meant or not (human problems)

                            in the visual abstract realm anything can be a meaning (for a species of extraterrestrials with high levels of imagination)
                            especially simple codes can be ambiguous (some simple codes might not because they spell emergency)
                            what enviroment would force et to have visual communication

                            if people in the 14 century had maps and made exchange to navigate territory, with the horse/ elephant or by sea or river

                            maybe the octopus ET live on a liquid planet like lava lamp soup that has always changing territory , with dangerous regions to be avoided while traveling, and the communications must include always changing maps to avoid and adapt

                            the fixed placement of resources for humans also fixes the communication of maps .
                            a human is not simply just a human is also the territory he comes from/ lives/ feed, and buildings like an invisible leash/ root . the same static attitude (imovable ) may be applicable to language of mathematics

                            doing math means to know how to use brain resources (because those are necessarily) , is an expensive activity
                            to develop special attention skills , rare and precious, not redundant and flexible.

                            Underlying everything in the world, physicists have found categories of information (like mass, momentum, position or energy), mathematical relationships between these categories, and numbers that apply to the categories. These three aspects of real-world information are seemingly the basic substance which, when logically aggregated, constitute the various varieties of fundamental matter: no “more substantial” substance has ever been found; no “more material” matter has ever been found. So, rather than these three aspects of information being a “property” of material substance, material substance is seemingly a logical aggregate of information.

                            But, as I ask in my essay: why are these numbers moving and changing? The categories don’t change; the relationships don’t change: only the numbers move and change. But the numbers don’t seem to be the type of self-sufficient entities which could change themselves, and the categories and relationships also don’t seem to be the type of self-sufficient entities which could change the numbers. So, I conclude that there is another aspect to the world, which can only be represented as logical connectives (like IF, AND, OR, THEN, and IS TRUE), which are responsible for the above-described logical aggregation of information, and responsible for number movement/ jumps.

                            Vladimir Rogozhin

                            Unfortunately, you do not give a definition of MATTER. And this is very important!

                            Vladimir, this is my answer to your 17th May challenge:

                            When fundamental-level matter is measured, or calculations about fundamental-level matter are made from other measurements, resulting in categories of information (like mass in MeV/c2, or charge) with their associated numbers, what is the material substance whose properties are being measured? My answer is that there is no material substance other than information which is logically connected (e.g. by logical ANDs) to other such information.

                            But what is information itself? The three necessary aspects of real-world information are: categories (like mass or charge); context (like mathematical relationships between the categories); and numbers that apply to the categories. Numbers, without category or context, are not information. Yes/no answers, without questions and other associated context, are not information.

                                Lorraine Ford
                                P.S.
                                Which, I might add, is EXACTLY why computers/ AIs are not processing real-world information, real-world information which has 3 inherent, inseparable aspects: category, context/ relationship, and number. Computers/ AIs are merely processing man-made symbols of information, where there are physically separate symbols for category, context/ relationship, and number.

                                    Lorraine Ford
                                    Has matter always had the capacity to, at least sometimes, behave logically, i.e. behaviour which can be represented by logical connectives (like IF, AND, OR, THEN, and IS TRUE)? This is as opposed to categories of information (like mass, momentum, position or charge), which seem to exist in relationships that are represented by mathematical operators.

                                    But what is matter? Seemingly the most primitive matter is already assumed by physicists to be a hybrid type of thing in which these categories, with their associated numbers, are connected by logical ANDs (as opposed to these categories and numbers being seen as “properties” of matter).

                                    Unacknowledged logical ANDs have seemingly always been a part of the picture that physicists have of primitive matter.

                                        Lorraine Ford
                                        So, in the absence of any other fundamental “material substance” being found by physicists, I’m concluding that the fundamental “material substance” of the most primitive particles would be information of the following type of form:

                                        (mass = number1) AND (velocity = number2) AND (charge = number3) AND (spin = number4) IS TRUE,

                                        where the logical connectives “AND” and “IS TRUE” are the things that can build a materially substantial “particle” of information.

                                            Georgina Woodward

                                            1. What “load of numbers” are you talking about? Did you not notice that, as well as word symbols representing real-world numbers, I also used word symbols for real-world categories (“mass”, “charge”), symbols for “=”, symbols for brackets, and symbols for AND and IS TRUE? The numbers are only a part of the picture I was trying to portray.

                                            2. I think you yourself are perhaps “muddling” symbols of the world with the actual world. Physicists and others have always used word and other symbols for real-world categories (like mass and charge), real-world relationships (“laws of nature”), and real-world numbers that apply to the categories, in order to represent theoretical, experimental and measured aspects of the real world. Are you suggesting that symbols with known meanings should NOT be used to represent aspects of the real world? I’m saying that in order to concisely represent known aspects of real-world primitive particles, one needs to use the above-mentioned AND and IS TRUE symbols, which have known meanings to people.

                                            3. “…isn’t material … material existence”: In the absence of any actual evidence of any material substance, I’m concluding that the most primitive material substance can be represented in the above-mentioned way which includes the known aspects of the most primitive matter. Have you got a better way of representing primitive material substance, apart from the words “material existence”, words which pretty much say absolutely nothing about the known aspects of primitive material substance?

                                            4. Define what you mean by "information".

                                              Georgina Woodward
                                              I’m saying that the most fundamental matter, the material substance of a fundamental particle, is actually just information which can be represented in the following type of way:

                                              (mass = number1) AND (velocity = number2) AND (charge = number3) AND (spin = number4) IS TRUE,

                                              where the numbers can be zero, and where the logical connectives “AND” and “IS TRUE” are the means whereby a “particle” of information can be built.

                                              People know what the word “number” refers to; people know what the words “mass”, “velocity”, “charge” and “spin” refer to; people know what an equals sign is; and people know what the words “AND” and “IS TRUE” are supposed to mean.

                                              So, can you provide a better, alternative way of describing fundamental matter?

                                                  Lorraine Ford
                                                  The difference between information (like the above purportedly existing “particle” of information) and categories (a group term for things like mass, charge, and position) is that:

                                                  • Information is always represented in logical connection with other information, using logical connectives like IF, AND, OR, THEN and IS TRUE.
                                                  • Categories are always represented in mathematical relationship with other categories, using mathematical operators and equals signs.

                                                  The physics equations that represent the experimentally determined relationships between categories (“laws of nature”) essentially say that IF some numbers that apply to some of the categories change, THEN other numbers that apply to other categories will instantly change, so that the relationships between the categories are never violated. Then all further number movement stops, because these relationships between categories can’t explain why the numbers would ever change in the first place, or why the numbers would continue to change. In other words, the relationships between categories can’t explain why the world is continually moving and changing.

                                                  To explain why the world is continually moving and changing, one needs to represent the world in terms of information, using statements containing logical connectives like IF, AND, OR, THEN and IS TRUE to represent the necessary number jumps. But, relationships between categories are essentially rules, whereas logical connections between information are not rules. So, unlike relationships between categories, which can be experimentally verified, it would seemingly be difficult to experimentally verify any specific purportedly existing logical connections between information.