Lorraine Ford
I find a weakness in your thinking. It is the point that the arXiv Autors fervently believe in the underlying automatic processes. For example, I do not believe in it.
The Name of the arXiv: when too much zeal is an obstacle to science
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Christian Corda
Perhaps you are not in the majority.
Are you saying, for example, that the pilots who flew the planes into the twin towers jumped some of their own numbers, making them genuinely personally responsible for the outcome, as opposed to laws of nature and/or randomness moving/ jumping 100% of the numbers? Are you saying that we live in a type of world where actual people working for arXiv could be genuinely responsible for their own physical outcomes (e.g. rejecting papers), as opposed to the underlying laws of nature and/or randomness being 100% responsible for all outcomes?
Paper writers could have nothing to complain about if we lived in a type of world where the underlying laws of nature and randomness were totally responsible for all outcomes, e.g. rejecting arXiv papers.
Admin Comment: Your reference to the attack on the Twin Towers attack is insensitive, inappropriate, and in poor taste as an example to use to highlight your point.
people are responsible for their actions and this is not the place to talk about free will or similar concepts.
Anyone making the decision to accept, reject or reclassify papers should only do so on scientific grounds. The point is that sometimes it's done for other reasons that have little to do with science. This is happening in arXiv, but unfortunately some journals also adopt this behavior.
Making decisions about the fate of a paper without going into the scientific merits and without allowing the author to respond is a deplorable practice, especially if the paper has already passed a peer-review. In this case we get the paradox that the result described by the paper has acquired a certification of scientific validity but, if correct, it will not be noticed and will not contribute to scientific progress, if wrong, nobody will falsify it and the author can claim a false result.
Donatello Dolce
You and others are complaining about arXiv, or more correctly, people at arXiv who have rejected your papers for some ostensible but unstated reason.
If the world is indeed like most arXiv papers say it is like, then your complaints should be directed to the laws of nature and randomness, which, according to your papers, are the only elements of the world responsible for the numbers (that apply to categories like position, momentum or energy) that describe physical outcomes.
Donatello Dolce
MauvePanther,
On the one hand, you and others are complaining about physical outcomes (i.e. your papers being rejected by people working for arXiv).
On the other hand, the majority of arXiv papers (presumably including yours) are in effect saying that 100% of physical outcomes are 100% due to laws of nature and randomness.
So, while you and others might interpret the unpalatable outcomes as “deplorable practices”, “decisions” being made, reasoning occurring, and “not contribut[ing] to scientific progress”, in reality it is just the inevitable unfolding of the impersonal laws of nature and randomness occurring, because seemingly there are no other possible causes of outcomes.
So, can you please clarify whether you think that there are ANY other possible causes of outcomes (palatable or unpalatable) other than the types of things we might describe as physics’ “laws of nature” and “randomness”?
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Lorraine Ford 100% of physical outcomes are 100% due to laws of nature and randomness.
In your deterministic view, you are assuming that we humans know exactly the initial condition of the physical systems that affect decisions, but real life is a very very complex system and, fortunately, unexpected things happen in our life. If future facts are already written in the solutions of the physics laws we have no access to that information (except for very simple and controllable elementary systems). But I don't want to discuss these things here.
Lorraine Ford in reality it is just the inevitable unfolding of the impersonal laws of nature and randomness occurring, because seemingly there are no other possible causes of outcomes.
If you believe this then you should not complain to me, should you go complain to the laws of nature.
Lorraine Ford So, can you please clarify whether you think that there are ANY other possible causes of outcomes (palatable or unpalatable) other than the types of things we might describe as physics’ “laws of nature” and “randomness”?
Dear CornflowerCicada, try this little experiment yourself: convince yourself that you don't want to continue this discussion here, if you really try this you can get this outcome regardless "the types of things we might describe as physics’ “laws of nature” and “randomness”". I hope this little experiment will be successful.
Admin Comment: Users please refrain from making personal attacks on other users. Such behaviour is not tolerated here. Things are boiling over and getting very heated again.
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OK, sorry. I would just like to clarify that censorship, like any other injustice, or the tragic episodes like those mentioned by CornflowerCicada, cannot be blamed on the “laws of nature” and “randomness”, or on "the outcomes of automatic processes" whatever that means. On the contrary, we must always act to avoid injustice as we must always try to create the most favorable conditions for the development of science. From my essay: "Freedom of scientific thought, like freedom of thought in general, will always be under a threat that will take ever new forms in every age. For this reason, each of us must always be aware, especially in less suspicious eras, that freedom is precious and must always be preserved".
Coming back to the main topic "science in the internet era", what just happened in this thread could be indicative of what is reported in my essay: "It is easy to give some predictions about the future of science by observing the evolution of threads in web forums or other social networks in general. One of the effects of the internet [discussions] will be a flattening downward of the scientific debate with an ever greater shortage of new challenging ideas and an increasing self-celebration of old super-inflated concepts [...] ".
What happens in arXiv or in similar institutions with obscure policies typical of social media, could have similar dynamics (but much more veiled) to what typically happens in forums and social media, where it is easy, without a rigid application of the scientific method, to divert the discussion onto redundant tracks and sterile ideas. The scientific method is the only weapon we have to discriminate between fringe science and challenging new ideas.
Donatello Dolce
MauvePanther,
What I am trying to get at is that you and others are blaming unpalatable outcomes (the rejection of papers) on people who work for arXiv, and yet the very papers that were rejected tell a story of a world where all outcomes are fully accounted for by laws of nature and randomness. The papers tell a story of a fully self-sufficient world that doesn't need any decisions to be made, or any reasoning to occur, by people who work for arXiv.
Re "... what just happened in this thread could be indicative of what is reported in my essay: "It is easy to give some predictions about the future of science by observing the evolution of threads in web forums or other social networks in general. One of the effects of the internet [discussions] will be a flattening downward of the scientific debate...":
You are seemingly in effect claiming that I am hijacking debate on your essay. But from my point of view, I am merely pointing out what I would claim are obvious inconsistencies in a philosophical approach or a way of seeing the world. These inconsistencies relate to your “unspeakable hypotheses and established truths that cannot be questioned”, where the “unspeakable hypotheses” is the idea that people, as opposed to laws and randomness, could actually have a physical effect on the world; where people working for arXiv could actually, literally, be physically responsible for rejecting a paper.
arXiv told me that I should publish first in a recognised review after this I can submit my preprint!.
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Don't be so sure about that. Among the many stories that I can extensively testify, besides those of papers reclassified or rejected even if published in highly ranked journals at submission, is one story of a paper reclassified with the advice "we will reclassify the paper as requested by the author when the article is published" or something like that (about 2010). This would have been fine, except that the article was already published at that time and the author specified the journal-ref data at submission. OK, it was a conference paper (but peer-reviewed if I well remember). But what did they want the author to do? Did they want a conference paper published in a peer-reviewed journal? Or is this simply one of several episodes showing the deep contradictions of the arXiv moderation system?
Alaya Kouki
I have been (and still am) in the same situation over the last few years. Many of my articles have had to wait for acceptance by mainstream journals before they can be listed on the arXiv. One, the one on the precession of the perihelion of planets in Newtonian physics, was rejected even after being published in a mainstream journal with an impact factor greater than 4... Yet I have over 120 articles included in the archive.
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Donatello Dolce
This is actually a big problem, also the fact that the business industry have began to rule in academia.
"Certainly, if you want to be funded, don't criticize arXiv and keep well away from the censorship danger zone by proposing ideas that might annoy some academic interests. On the contrary, to obtain funding easily, you have to try to ride the highest wave of the latest mainstream topic, trying to accommodate the ideas of those who could grant you the funds."
This makes the scientist to prostitutes. No good...
Admin comment: While I see your point, likening scientists to prostitutes comes across as vulgar and in poor taste. As such this is not acceptable.
Donatello Dolce
The problem could perhaps be expressed as follows:
Does any physics’ theoretical model of the world (as described in, or implied by, an arXiv paper) have the explanatory tools needed to explain why only one very definite outcome occurred, when there were at least three possible outcomes?
Does any physics’ theoretical model of the world have the explanatory tools needed to explain why an electronic version of the arXiv paper is now physically held in only one of the following folders on the arXiv computer: the rejected folder, the physics.gen-ph folder, or the hep-th folder? (Or other equivalent ways of categorising papers.)
This very definite, verifiable physical outcome can only be explained in terms of human reasoning and agency having an effect on physical outcomes, as well as the usual suspects (laws of nature and randomness). Yet theoreticians continue to insist that the usual suspects (laws of nature and randomness) are the only aspects of the world that are necessary to explain physical outcomes.
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Hello MauvePanther I appreciated your essay and basically agree with your content and conclusion. I am an independent scholar with no affiliations with the scientific community. My only contacts are two essays in FQXi’s competitions. One of those is in this year’s competition. My work falls into the realm of the last paragraph of your essay: “As far as I can testify, there is currently no fertile ground in modern science to welcome possible new conceptual paradigms….” In my current essay: “Could Science Be Different And Improved? Yes. A specific Proposal.” , I introduce what I consider to be “new ground breaking conceptual paradigms”. I do not want science to miss out on an opportunity to substantially improve itself and for my work “to fall into oblivion”. I am 79 years old and I want to “pass the torch” on my research into the hands of competent scientific collaborators who can introduce it into the new realm of science. Do you have any suggestions on how this can be done and who can do it? My only other “published” work is my essay in FQXi’s last contest. It’s title is Clarification of Physics: A Derivation of A Complete, Predictive Model of “Our” Multiverse.” It can be found in FQXi’s records - simply type in fqxi and the title and you can access the essay and the pertinent comments. I think you will find it to be pertinent to my question. Thanks for your essay. Hopefully, you can find the fertile ground for a successful introduction of my work.
Admin Comment: Please be respectful of other entrants and keep on topic. Please don’t reply just to advertise your own essay.
quote
How far is the boundary of scientific freedom today? How much is the scientific debate biased by academic gurus and corporate interests? Are there unspeakable hypotheses and established truths that cannot be questioned? Are there visionary scientists scared to propose and pursue their intuitions? This essay poses a serious criticism about scientific communication in the Internet era, in view of the advent of Artificial Intelligence. We analyze the arXiv moderation system and its contrast with the very essence of the scientific method according to which “the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual” [Galileo (1610)].
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To cut to the chase I will go straight to the HAIRBALL.
I have tangled with ARXIV repeatedly and do not like them . However, I view ARXIV as having a selection process favoring elite universities, which at times DOES have a hard kernel of truth to it. Case in point, in Cosmology, with rare exceptions, sees most of its breakthroughs in places like HARVARD, MIT, and CALTECH. And of course the top ten universities in China, EU and the UK, as well
If one wants to nit pick, what I can say is this "bias" does reflect where the action is in terms of most scientific breakthroughs.
I view it as OBNOXIOUS at times, but it is undeniable that there is SOME truth to it.
Does this mean I like what ARXIV does ? NOPE, but if one wants to curate impactful research, what they do is
not wrong
Its painful, but even in its present iteration, I understand the system. Does not mean I like it, but if one wants high impact articles in say Cosmology, Quantum Gravity and the like one does have a sure fire way to find them
So ARXIV with all of its problems is a quick source to hit upon.
That it is at times unfair is yet another issue entirely.
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Andrew Beckwith Its painful, but even in its present iteration, I understand the system.
I would have nothing to say if we were talking about business and predominant positions here. But we are talking about science here, and the subject is very different. In science "the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual [Galileo 1610]".
It is clear that the most influential universities are those that contribute most to the scientific debate but these universities rarely deal with controversial ideas or ideas that are not in line with the mainstream ideas that they themselves have defined. On the contrary, IMHO, important breakthroughs in science could come from marginal universities, in a totally unexpected way and also in contrast with the interests of large institutions.
At the bottom, there is the very important problem, which emerged on many occasions in this forum, that arXiv reclassifies peer-reviewed articles. How dare they question months of peer-review with a superficial moderation system of a few days? The most puzzling thing is that arXiv NEVER gives reasons. The ""The arXiv moderation process is not a peer-review process. arXiv staff and moderators do not evaluate the validity of the scientific process and cannot give feedback on the submission. " [arXiv blog].
"arXiv moderation actually resembles an inquisition process where authors do not know what they are accused
of, some selected authors are allegedly blacklisted, authors cannot defend themselves at any stage, much less on objective grounds and on the merit of scientific facts, authors do not know what criteria are adopted, the stated policies are unabashedly obscure, it is not known who judges authors or if there are “hidden” members in the management, they do not seem to recognize the authority of any other scientific institution and are not judged by anyone. Furthermore, for “selected” cases, i.e. for those controversial preprints that should be evaluated with the most scientific rigor, the final decision seems to be taken by authority from the "the founder and some leaders" even in opposition to the opinion expressed by the moderators themselves, as was confidentially reported to me by an insider whose identity I cannot disclose. “Sometimes” the verdict seems to be already written before the process
starts. One wonders how all this could have happened. Who gave such a monopoly of scientific information and the consequent power to condition science into the hands of a single institution with such unscientific policies?"
So to speak, ArXiv instills in the author's head the doubt that his results, certified by reviewers and editors, are wrong without saying how and why? The author of an article published in a journal has the right to know if his article is correct or not, at least to withdraw or correct it, and to prevent others from producing wrong publications on it. Doesn't the question seem paradoxical to you?
If you want to keep an idea secret, post it on physics:gen-ph. You will be sure that no one will ever take it seriously.
This evidently violates the very essence of the scientific method, is unacceptable and is blocking the free flow of ideas in science. Ideas that may turn out to be wrong but surely can be inspiring for someone if they have passed peer-review. Science is also made up of (apparently or truly) wrong ideas, it wouldn't be a shame if one of these ideas should unfortunately pass through arXiv. I attribute a large part of the crisis of theoretical physics, foundations of quantum mechanics, partly also in cosmology and other disciplines not closely linked to experimental results, to the policies of arXiv. As far as I can see, arXiv bears great responsibility for the sterility of the current scientific debate.
"“It is just an ordinary day at the headquarters of the physics preprint archive. The operators
are going through their daily routine and are discussing what to do about recent emails:
arXiv moderator: Some 'reader complaints' have come in regarding preprints posted to the
archive by Drs. Einstein and Yang. Dr. Einstein, who is not even an academic, claims to have
shown in his preprint that mass and energy are equivalent, while Professor Yang is
suggesting, on the basis of an argument I find completely unconvincing, that parity is not
conserved in weak interactions. What action shall I take?
arXiv advisory board: Abject nonsense! Just call up their records and set their 'barred'
flags to TRUE.
arXiv moderator: And here's a letter from one 'Hans Bethe' supporting an author whose
paper we deleted from the archive as being 'inappropriate'.
arXiv advisory board: Please don't bother me with all these day to day matters! Prof. Bethe
is not in the relevant 'field of expertise', so by rule 23(ii) we simply ignore anything he says.
Just delete his email and send him rejection letter #5.
The first portion of the above exchange is fictional of course, but might well have happened
had Einstein and Yang had dealings with the physics preprint archive arXiv.org, administered
by Cornell University, today. The second part is not fictional.”" [Nobel Laureate Brian Josephson]
Ulla Mattfolk It is just a word with a certain meaning, and that meaning is useable here, are you aware of it or not... Sorry.
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the points i remember and appreciate reading after a few days of reading are -
- is the social media of the 90'- internet of the scientists
- there is an alternate place for posting papers called with vixira
- if a paper has more authors this imply at least certain dialogue between them (chimeric writing)
- there is potential for change in the way is moderated to accept scientific writings ( altough irelevant im curious ,i dont know can someone send papers, article by post / delivery email?)
offtopic- i remember reading an other satire essay concerning more or less automatic paper submission by a certain category of people (also there was an issue concerning how many people reads the content )
maybe there should be some directed (person A call / write points /to B C D E )recommendation assignments with checkpoints , or some sort of connection between the readers and the authors that would slow down certain aspects and accelerate other objectives . Or an other idea for famous authors a certain number of followers/ slots /
not considering myself a positive example , still i have the concern that people produce write read watch, consume ,they mirror and give back less and less . or use a simple , not clear or explicit, format /communication protocol to give back
I am in ,my own way INFURIATED by Arxiv. Infuriated. However, I also find them useful. Finding them demeaning and worse does not mean that I can not learn something from their output I do.
What I am amazed at though is why they favor MAJOR Universities, and the exclusion of others. I.e. those in the Top tier do get in, without too much difficulty
Let me make this plain. I admire some of their OUTPUT. I.e. a broken clock is right 2 times a day. Could they do better ? Absolutely
However, UNLIKE JOURNALS, there is NO paywall
Its free to access their OUTPUT
A. Big THANK you for the output being more or less free. I wish the JOURNALS would do that
B. Why they go KOOK hunting, or put people on lists, is well mystifying to me, They do
Very good experience from Arxiv, and a big thank you for the free access
A whopping F grade for their ideas as to whom should be allowed IN their output roster
In a word they entertain, educate me, and at the same piss me off.
Well done though, as a commendatory for information sake
If they are worried about budget and computer access I am certain a rich donor could
give them a major upgrade as far as computer work and facilities
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Dear Christian, I'm curious if you've broken the record of 20 publications systematically reclassified to the same author on the same idea. Many of these papers were published in peer-reviewed journals even before submission to arXiv, others were conference papers.
My feeling is that the phenomenon of reclassification or rejection is much bigger than one might imagine. No one can know for sure how frequent this practice is also because some papers are then reclassified on the main lists. It is impossible to keep track of what happened.
Incredibly, the reclassification back to the desired list is done by arXiv even the day after the announcement of the reclassified paper on physics:gen-ph. I know for sure (documented) the case of a reclassification that occurred only on the single day of the announcement. The day after the paper was spontaneously readmitted in hep-th with the motivation of a "late replay of one of the moderators". This paper was published in a prestigious letter physics journal before submission. Of course, while this was an admitted arXiv mistake, the article was not subsequently re-announced in hep-th to remedy the mistake. The fact is that with this machination the article has left no trace of the extemporaneous reclassification that took place and has not been noticed by any theoretical physicist, that is, by none of the reference target audience for the paper.
Does it seem to you that people who do science, after obtaining a PhD, after having a research grant in a prestigious institute, after waiting for their article to be published in a prestigious peer-reviewed journal, can be treated in this way? That is, to be censored with such brazen machinations without even knowing what criticisms are raised and without the possibility of defending oneself on the scientific merit of the evidence (certified by publication) brought?
This type of behavior goes not only against science but also against basic human rights.