what about black cat in dark coal cellar, not facing a would be observer but intent on finishing his plate of food. How can that be as it cannot take definite form at a singular place if not observed, according to quantum mechanics?
IF no observation product is formed (too dark) That alone doesnot rule out the possibility of an un-seen material cat. A bit like asking if the moon is there when I don't look. In relativity there are many different possible seen moons depending on the position of the observer. If one shuts his eyes,for himalone the moon ceases to be a part of his vision but it is still seen by the others and still exists as a material object , affecting tides
George Ellis on EXISTENCE
Georgina,
I don’t agree with your piecemeal way of looking at the world. I think that the world has to be looked at as a whole.
I think that “WHAT EXISTS” is a self-contained, standalone, world, that of necessity knows itself and moves itself, because there is NOTHING OUTSIDE the world doing any of it. Everything else that exists, including an aspect that we would label “time”, only exists as a consequence of the primary existence of the self-contained, standalone, world, that knows itself and moves itself.
A world that is structured:
Physicists have found that the world is structured, or has structured itself, into category, relationship and number aspects, aspects that physicists symbolically represent with equation symbols, and category and number symbols.
A world that knows itself:
While physicists might symbolically represent aspects of the world with equations and number symbols, the actual world underlying these symbols necessarily knows its own relationships between categories (like mass or position) and the numbers that apply to these categories. It would be logically impossible for the world to operate, if the world had NO inkling, no knowledge, of its own specific relationships, specific categories and specific numbers. A basic knowledge aspect of the world is a logical necessity. And clearly, this knowledge aspect has been found to be individual and point-of-view, and not global and God-like.
A world that moves itself:
Nothing moves the world except the world moving itself; the world causes its own movement; the relationships that structure the world are the secondary movers, not the primary movers in the world. Movement is symbolically represented as number change, or number jumps, where these numbers apply to categories like the relative position category. In this way of looking at the world, “time” is not number change, but KNOWLEDGE of number change, where these numbers always apply to categories. So “time” is like a higher-level category, not a structural dimension.
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Lorraine Ford
I aggree there is one material world that exists. Inependently of observation, although that's not what quantumc physics says and how the world is described by Relatrivity.
Many observers ,organisms and devices exist as material things part of it and alo producing liknesses of it. The liknesses are not all the same because the observers exist at different locations
How the world is to be described i.e. what viewpoint is going to be taken is the first descision. Prior to making the descision there isn't a singular valid description of it.
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@"Georgina Woodward
From a Google search;
(I thoughtr this was quite funny , not being familiar wirth the entire sequence of analogies ).
The joke "black cat in coal cellar" is a play on the analogy that philosophy is like looking for a black cat in a dark room:
Philosophy: Looking for a black cat in a dark room
Metaphysics: Looking for a black cat that isn't there in a dark room
Theology: Looking for a black cat that isn't there in a dark room, and shouting "I found it!"
Science: Looking for a black cat in a dark room while using a flashlight
Social Science: Suspecting from the beginning that there is a black cat somewhere, and emerging from the room with scratches on the forearm as vindication
(Warning given) AI is experimental
Georgina Woodward
In my initial enquiry I was thinking of schrodingers cat , prevented from decoherence because of the darkness.
The metaphysics analogy should perhaps say instead Quantum phydsics is like....etc,. "
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Georgina Woodward
Quote 'Science: Looking for a black cat in a dark room while using a flashlight'
I think that is too optomistic about the endevour.
Modern science would be better described as ;looking for a black cat in dark room,that may not be a coal celllar, that doesn't want to be found and may or not even be there, and may not actually be a black cat, while using a small laser pointer with unreliable battery.
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Relativity is a model that is not objective but based on sight of observers.
Quantum physics, particles are not generally obsevable so it is prone tiillusion due to lack of information.it also incorporates an observer or way of making a measuremet. it is necessary to have a point of view inorder to have one outcome rather than more thqan one or many.
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Relativity pertaing to things of macroscopic and astronomic scasle are not prone toi llusion unless there is deliberate conceslment or disrraction , leading ther.
Macroscopic and astronomic bodies cause deformation of the enviroment around them- resulting in gravitgy.
Smaller potons do not deeform to the same extent, ,but do cause symathetic vibration of the enviroment .,making aa wave patternt that is able to be divided and interfere with itsef.
Both models give seen this way,i.e. relativde to the observers point of view result.
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Georgina Woodward
That former post refers to hypothesis based on alternative interpretation of experiment and not disproven by it
Entanglement is not a material reality. We should already understand that what is thought to be depends on the viewpoint of the observer. i.e. it's not one reality to which we have sensory acess.
We could say, if moden science is described as ;"looking for a black cat in dark room, that may not be a coal celllar, that doesn't want to be found and may or not even be there, and may not actually be a black cat, while using a small laser pointer with unreliable battery. Mathewmatics might be said to be in that contextt, all of the above written in abstract, obscure language.
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I watched the video explaining that Relativity is like anaudience waching a play . Each member of the audience having their own view point but the play having only one script. UsIng this idea as a 'starting place' we can insted think about a magicshow performance-a rabbit is pulled from a hat and held aloft.
All of the viewpoints of the audience members, even added together do not make a material rabbit. they corespond to the electrical activity inside each brain, within each material person that exists at the same time as the source material rabbit.
Einstein said 'is the moon there when i I don't look' or wors of similar meaning.. A BILLION OR MORE EARTHBUND PEOPLE CAN SEE A LIKENESS OF THE MOON USING THEIR VISION, . They may think different thoughts about the moon. Nevertheless even when all of it is combined it doesn't make the material moon in space.
The material moon, protons, neutrons and electrons ;forming matter is not thesame as the observation products, which are a partial only likeness generated by thei brains of individual obsevers. they are not the same despite appearance name etc,
At the time of the ERP paper Einstein wanted there to be a definite material.reality,like the singular script behind the different views of the audience using the analogy used ealier. This is despite EInstein's traIns of different lengths that he presened in ' On the electodynamics of moving bodies' There doesn't seem to be a clear undrstanding that the relastavistic physics presented is incomplete. Besso is not still alive somewhere else along a time dimension but theoretically it would be possible to see liknesses of him generated from potential sensory data.
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Georgina Woodward
The material observers are within the material universe. The Object that is the source of all relative perceptions of it , is also material (matter) within the materiasl universe. The observers can recieve and process sensory data into observation products, associated with specific brain activity happening The observation products relate to when the potential sensory data was released.Though it exists within the material observer -Now. This is how virtual time becomes incorporated into the materiaL universe.
Georgina Woodward
Georgina,
I know you think you are being helpful, but “what quantumc [sic] physics says and how the world is described by Relatrivity [sic]” can’t be reconciled and explained in terms of your homespun sock analogy, or your homespun black cat analogy, or any other of your homespun analogies.
Pausing to correct your spelling, grammar and punctuation would be a good start; and pausing to think before you post your dribs-and-drabs, stream-of-consciousness comments would be a good start. I know you think you are being helpful.
………………
I’m contending that the issues of matter and time, and consciousness/ observers etc. are secondary aspects of the world that should perhaps be seen in the context of the bigger-picture, primary aspect of the world, the bigger-picture, primary aspect of the world being that the world is a genuinely self-contained and standalone system.
I.e., there is nothing outside of the world manipulating the world. Of necessity, the world is a type of thing that created its own relationships, categories and numbers; these are the aspects of the world that physicists represent with special symbols; and the category aspects of the world can be measured by physicists. Of necessity, the world is a type of thing that internally moves itself.
I’m contending that, because the world is a self-contained, standalone internally-moving viable system, these necessary foundational aspects of the world can be implied from what we know about viable systems:
- A point-of-view aspect of the world, which needs to come from small parts of the world, and
- A creative aspect of the world whereby, in order to resolve situations, the small parts of the world need to continually, and on the spot, create new numbers and apply them to the categories, and
- A knowledge aspect of the world whereby the small parts of the world need to know their own relationships, categories and numbers.
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Georgina Woodward
A time dimension or growing time dimension in additionj to 3 sptaial dimensions is the wrong structure.
Seen objects are obsevation products formed within materal bservers within the material universe They show liknesses that are formed udsing the data that was released into the environment, when it was releassed -not now.That is the relationship with time. Human vision comes from two overlapping images (USUALLY) from two eyes .The orthaganol to the verrtical and horiizontal dimensions is a virtual perspective dimension, and this is also the orientation of a virtual time dimension, A seen product can be formed from data released into the environment at different times, processed into a seen present existing within a material observer -Now. an observer does not have necessarily to be at a different time in material reality to experience an obvservation prouct showing a different time to another obsever. It relies upon it taking different amounts of time for the stimulus to be recieved at that locationj.
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Lorraine Ford
Some people like analogies, as a way of rellating to ideas. Some people enjoy making analogies. Sometimes they might work to help understanding; as a different way of looking at an idea. Sometimes they are just funny, to the creator if not a particular recipient, Some people are humourless, and different people think in differnt ways. Maybe i's not written with you in mind.
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I'M NOT TRYING TO DISRESPECT ANYONE, BUT I CAN'T HELP IT IF MY WRUTING IS TAKEN IN A WAY UNINTENDED. .'SOCK' IS ADOUT ORIENTATION. A SOCK WUTHOUT A FOOT CAN BE FLAT AND SHAPELESS. MANAKIN LEGS, SEPARATELY ORIENTATED , IS A STRANGE AND BIZARRE SUBJECT TO ME. I FOUND ITAMUSING TO WRITE.
Georgina Woodward
FYI Lorraine, anticipating your further disaproval, I am not shouting in my previous post. I just had CAPS lock on and at that time didn't think it mattered enough to turn it off.
Georgina Woodward
I'M NOT TRYING TO DISRESPECT ANYONE, BUT I CAN'T HELP IT IF MY WRITING IS TAKEN IN A WAY UNINTENDED .'SOCK' IS ADOUT ORIENTATION. A SOCK WITHOUT A FOOT CAN BE FLAT AND SHAPELESS. MANAKIN LEGS, SEPARATELY ORIENTATED , IS A STRANGE AND BIZARRE SUBJECT TO ME. I FOUND IT AMUSING TO WRITE.
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Mathematics is a language. It can be used to describe the position of something,or distance beteen things, if used with a co-ordinate system or a reference frame. But application ,That is ABSTRACT superimosition, of the co-ordinates or referernce frame on the material world. It is not objective ; That is what is shown by the different findings for train length found in 'On the electrodynamics of moving bodies. Lorraine seems to think that that is higher level psycology taking that fact into account. As if there is just one true objective measurement that can be made. This mistake is similar to the posititon taken by the ERP challenge to quantum physics.
Despite giving us Relativity , Einstein wants a singular predetermined objective reality. SR is incomplete and qantum physics (not its only problem) is too because this is missing.