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  • The Multiverse and Existential Scale | Robert Lawrence Kuhn

Hi Steve,

I don’t think it is useful to split hairs over knowledge and consciousness. Consciousness is such a controversial topic, that to get in the right ballpark is the aim, not to be entirely precise. Get in the right ballpark first, then split hairs.

I’m saying that the ballpark is that consciousness is a separate, necessary aspect of the real-world system; consciousness (and also creativity) is a logical aspect that is necessary for a viable standalone, self-sufficient, mathematical, real-world system. (And in the context of this thread by Robert Kuhn, I’m saying that consciousness and creativity are the basic aspects whose existence can’t be explained.)

Without going off on a tangent about physical matter like particles and atoms, one can be precise about low-level consciousness: low-level consciousness IS knowledge. Low-level consciousness is point-of-view on-the-spot knowledge of the low-level world. Low-level consciousness is awareness/ experience of the mathematics of the world, i.e. awareness/ experience of what physicists would represent as categories, relationships and numbers.

Consciousness (and knowledge) is always based on the world, because the foundation of ALL higher-level consciousness (and knowledge) is the above-described low-level consciousness/ knowledge of the low-level, physics-level, interactions in the senses.

But the content of higher-level consciousness (and knowledge) is clearly a bit of a concoction (that is why we need science). It is only with higher-level consciousness that one can split hairs about all sorts of things, including distinguishing higher-level knowledge from higher-level consciousness, and distinguishing higher-level consciousness from how higher-level consciousness feels.

    Lorraine Ford
    Do you find it offensive?. I don't see how it affects you since you have already said you wont look. How does music you won't listen to harm you ? Petty and officiuous behaviour. I have previosly flagged some of your posts as offensive due to their highlty inapproprate language. I COULD HAVE FLAGGED MANY MORE. At least you are consistent in your disagreeableness, So I'm not suprised.

      Has everyone forgotten that this thread is supposed to be about the size/ units issue in a multiverse, and about “Why is there anything at all, why not nothing?”.

      In the context of the subject matter of this thread by Robert Kuhn, I’m saying that consciousness and creativity are the basic aspects of the world whose existence can’t be explained. And I'm saying WHY consciousness is a necessary aspect of the world, but a first-principles aspect of the world that therefore can't be explained.

      However, I think that Georgina's off-the-cuff, completely thoughtless, badly-spelled, bad grammar and punctuation, continual dribble of semi-comments, in every single thread on this website, should ALL be flagged.

        Lorraine Ford
        I don't believe in the multiverse, nor superposition, existential wave function and their suposed collapse. Therefore, to me, the size of the multiverse is a pointless exersize. On the Georege Ellis Existence thread, I have written a solution to the measurement problem.
        Why quantum physics does not describe actual reallity. 1. The measurement problem (WHAT AND WHY) 2. Vulnerabilitry to illusion 3. No object permanence in the theorty 4.Has interpreted evidence of filled voids hosting their disturbance, (which can be split into particle and wave and wave, the two pieces intrerfering). The alternative can explain all experiments descibed using superposition. The theory representing instead superposition of a particle-wave, represented by wave fuction that has no definite singularstate until obseved, at which time it forms one definite state out of the possibilities, at a definitelocation according to that observer.5. no clear differentiation of material particle inputs and observation product outputs. 6.human vision does not get involved but plays a important role in the production of the seen 'reality'.
        Entanglement was suggested as an explanation of findings, on the understanding that values
        of material pop into existence, rather than following a sequence of chage from creation of the particle pair. Being a real occurance relies on the underlying theory being correct. The multiverse was proposed to overcome the issue of the measure ment problem. It is not needed as wave functions are a failed hypotheasis. We should expect different observers to give diferent outcomes as observation products or results as this is what SR WRelativity tells us. Different arrangements of measuring apparatuas too, placed by the experimenter, impose a rererence frame.

            Hi Steve,

            Re your "I consider philosophically a kind of main function where this pantheism, panpsychism and materialism are considered ... ":

            If low-level matter is is some way conscious, then presumably it has to be conscious OF something. What do you think that low-level matter would be conscious of? Or do you think that the consciousness of low-level matter would be devoid of content?

              Lorraine Ford
              I have shared some music. With permission of the maker. I have not asked for any financial gain. I am not offering any kind of service. No preetty girls harmed. Anyone can listen for fee at alexparry.bandcamp.com I think it is nice,don''t listen if you don'twant to.

                  Georgina Woodward
                  Georgina,

                  I think that the physics of the world can't make sense without considering the bigger picture real-world system. As I see it, the parts can only make sense in the context of the whole, where the whole is presumably a self-contained, self-sufficient, standalone, system.

                    Georgina Woodward
                    Georgina,

                    Anyone in their right mind would know that this is the fifth ADVERTISMENT you have placed on the FQxI website in the last few days.

                      Lorraine Ford I don’t think it is useful to split hairs over knowledge and consciousness. Consciousness is such a controversial topic,

                      This is why we first need to define what we talk about, otherwise we risk to discuss different topics and we only get confused. This is important.

                      Your definitions are confusing. I saw it in the Landscape discussion/Kuhn too. It does not give much then.

                      I think the only reasonable definition of some proto-consciousness is from quantum scenarios, but I still have hard to think of it as a reality, in meaning pure ontological states. I have more to learn.
                      It would make all conscious to some degree (proto-degree). A slime mold would be conscious in the meaning doing choices, selections, have attention.

                          Lorraine Ford Hi Lorraine, I must say that I have just ideas and extrapolations that I cannot affrim about this origin of the universe and this consciousness also. I have thought a lot about all this , why we exist, how and from what. I doubt that we come from a kind of energy, infinite not conscious. So I consider like many considered a kind of God of Spinoza, so it is a kind of pantheism. They were Numerous to consider this reasoning,there is nothing of odd and that has nothing to do with the human religions. I am not a religious but I believe in a kind of God, here is a list of some thinkers who considered this pantheism. Einstein, Heisenberg, Pascal,schrodinger,Maxwell, Lorentz, Volta, Platon, Edison,Ampere, Copernicus,Newton,Kepler, Bernouilli, Bohr, Gauss,Born, Pasteur, Galilei, Darwin,Cantor , Godel,MacLaurin, Leibnitz, Planck,Edington and so more .
                          So why if this infinite eternal consciousness exists , why and and how this thing beyond our understanding creates this universe, philosophically maybe it is a project of evolution simply with the matters and the energy and informations , it is the meaning of my theory of spherisation , the evolution of this universal sphere with quantum and cosmological spheres and with the 3 mains systems, the DE, the DM and the photons , they fuse to create the ordinary matter, but I don t affirm of course. So this consciousness intrigues me , is it a kind of primary essence or is it emergent in the brains and others, I tell me that all is conscious at its level and that the complexification is important. Now what is the mechanism if this is ok, I don t know, have we a field, fiels, or a kind of 0d of consiousness and after synchronisations and mehanisms with the matter, I don t know.Have we an emergent consciousness due to the bodies and in our case these brains , maybe , I have studied several models and papers about this consciousness , Hameroff and Penrose and the microtubules and Objective orchestrated reduction, Hoffman, and others, but nobody has reached or proved this consciousness actually, I have a model but it is not proved of course. It is a hard complex problem I must say and we have deep limitations in physics, maths, philosophy. But if this infinite eternal energy of consciousness is a reality and is omnipotent inside and outside the physicality, there are several interesting roads to extrapolate, regards

                              Ulla Mattfolk
                              Ulla,
                              I have repeatedly, endlessly, described/ defined/ talked about what I mean by low-level and high-level consciousness, and low-level matter, and the mathematical aspects of the real-world system, etc.
                              I have asked you several times, but you, a conscious person, have not been able to describe what you mean by the word "consciousness", or what use your consciousness is to you.

                                  Steve Dufourny
                                  Steve,

                                  One of the issues that this thread is supposed to be about is “Why is there anything at all, why not nothing?”.

                                  I’m saying that consciousness and creativity are the basic aspects of the world whose existence can’t be explained. The existence of (what we would symbolically represent as) categories, equations and numbers can't be explained: this is the creativity of the universe. Because, not just the existence of the law-of-nature equations/ relationships that we know about, the existence of any equations/ relationships at all can't be explained.

                                  And the assignments of (what we would represent as) numbers to (what we would represent as) categories (like mass or position) can't be explained. This also is creativity/ free will.

                                  But, if low-level matter (e.g. particles, atoms or molecules) is in some way conscious, then presumably it has to be conscious OF something. What do you think that low-level matter would be conscious of? Or do you think that the consciousness of low-level matter would be devoid of content? Will you risk making a guess?

                                      Georgina Woodward
                                      I've found out with a quick Google search; The pre-frontal cortex is a mammalian thing. Most developed in the human, small in the cetations, who use two alternative regions having a quite diffferent brain structure. Birds have a different structure that perfoms the same sort of functions as the pre -frontal cortex. Other vertebrates not already mentioned use other structures more dis-similar in function to the pre-frontal cortex.
                                      From this we can implty that not only are the animals different in lifestylte and environment, providing the inputs. Their subjective consciousnes is also different because of the different processing that occurs.

                                          Lorraine Ford Lorraine, in a sense we are on the same wavelenght because we consider a kind of proto consciousness. So what you tell is challenging , that said we have no real explaination about this creativity and consciousness, If they are intrinsic to the fabric of the reality itself, how , it is the reall question. Let s take so your reasoning with the categories, equations, numbers and their relationships being a creativity, what is the main driving force of this creativity permitting so these relationships. It becomes a metaphysical problem , we return at these philosophical and ontological limitations that I explained because it is beyond the simple causes and effects that we know. It is indeed deep when we consider this free will and creativity.
                                          If the numbers, categoroes are like the mass , positions and that the relationships like equations ....are not just features describing the universe but represent something inherent to the creative nature of this universe, so what are these causes and where are the informations, particles or fields of this reasoning,
                                          If the consciousness in a lower level of matters are conscious also, it is due to what, for me it is this 0D main conscious field omniptent outside and inside but of course we cannot affirm and we dont know the process and mechanism. It is a pure panpsychism reasoning and even pantheistic because in this reasoning this consciousness is a reality at all levels and scales. Is it a state lie the mass, charge, the potition .....maybe . Personally if it is the case I doubt that it is conscious of nothing or from nothing, it seesm odd,that is why the outside and inside this universe becomes philosophically relevant to extrapolate. So lol I were to risk a guess, I would suggest that low level matter might be conscious of its own existence , so it is basic yes but these limitations imply that we cannot affirm ihow the materialism, panpsychism and pantheism act with their mechanisms at this quantum and cosmological scales. But this protoconsciousness is a relevant theory becayuse it contributes to higher levels of cnsciousness and when we consider the more complex forms of lifes, it is still more relevant considering the combinations possible inside this universe . So in resume your ideas are very interesting about the mysteries of why we exist . And the idea of consciousness and creativity being irreducible like foundamental elements of the universe is fascinating, Regards, ps thanks for this sharing moment of creative consciousness lol

                                            Lorraine Ford It is there that we arrive at the most important ontological and philosophial question, this protoconsciousness , is it from a mathenmatical accident from nothing, or is it from this 0D of a pantheistic god, all is there but these limitations are a reality ,.......

                                                Lorraine Ford I have repeatedly, endlessly, described/ defined/ talked about what I mean by low-level and high-level consciousness, and low-level matter, and the mathematical aspects of the real-world system, etc.

                                                I am sorry, but I have not seen. If you have many posts on it, it would not be a big effort to repeat it here? This is a vague and fuzzy term I am not used to. If it is just particles, atoms and molecules it is physics and chemistry? What is their consciousness?

                                                I see consciousness as just a selection rule, attention, choice, but basically it is all of these possibilities, so not even a number can be applied to it, and we can ONLY get an output of this process as a difference, say 0 or 1 (something, or a change). This is the reason consciousness is not just information (entropy) and it is an ACTIVE process doing selections.

                                                This consciousness must be fundamental (quantum), and universal, like the quantum uncertainty matrix itself, as it clearly has no goal, for it it does not matter what happens (bottom-up), but for us as conscious beings it matters (top-down), so if we see it from our point of view we select or we can maybe say 'create our realities', and every one of us create a different subjective reality (inner charachters). These differencies must be aligned or imposed on other? So the function of consciousness is this, to detect differencies and relax them by 'getting it' in our inner modelling or reality. To do this we have many paths or agencies, all with different goals, but still the top-down 'mind' or phase has to rule.

                                                Imagine you have an x,y-axis and must compress it to a linear function in 1D or even in 0D (entanglement). No numbers are there, and how the heck can you find it in any other way than detecting the differencies it give out (products and tensors)?