Lorraine Ford Lorraine, in a sense we are on the same wavelenght because we consider a kind of proto consciousness. So what you tell is challenging , that said we have no real explaination about this creativity and consciousness, If they are intrinsic to the fabric of the reality itself, how , it is the reall question. Let s take so your reasoning with the categories, equations, numbers and their relationships being a creativity, what is the main driving force of this creativity permitting so these relationships. It becomes a metaphysical problem , we return at these philosophical and ontological limitations that I explained because it is beyond the simple causes and effects that we know. It is indeed deep when we consider this free will and creativity.
If the numbers, categoroes are like the mass , positions and that the relationships like equations ....are not just features describing the universe but represent something inherent to the creative nature of this universe, so what are these causes and where are the informations, particles or fields of this reasoning,
If the consciousness in a lower level of matters are conscious also, it is due to what, for me it is this 0D main conscious field omniptent outside and inside but of course we cannot affirm and we dont know the process and mechanism. It is a pure panpsychism reasoning and even pantheistic because in this reasoning this consciousness is a reality at all levels and scales. Is it a state lie the mass, charge, the potition .....maybe . Personally if it is the case I doubt that it is conscious of nothing or from nothing, it seesm odd,that is why the outside and inside this universe becomes philosophically relevant to extrapolate. So lol I were to risk a guess, I would suggest that low level matter might be conscious of its own existence , so it is basic yes but these limitations imply that we cannot affirm ihow the materialism, panpsychism and pantheism act with their mechanisms at this quantum and cosmological scales. But this protoconsciousness is a relevant theory becayuse it contributes to higher levels of cnsciousness and when we consider the more complex forms of lifes, it is still more relevant considering the combinations possible inside this universe . So in resume your ideas are very interesting about the mysteries of why we exist . And the idea of consciousness and creativity being irreducible like foundamental elements of the universe is fascinating, Regards, ps thanks for this sharing moment of creative consciousness lol
The Multiverse and Existential Scale | Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Lorraine Ford It is there that we arrive at the most important ontological and philosophial question, this protoconsciousness , is it from a mathenmatical accident from nothing, or is it from this 0D of a pantheistic god, all is there but these limitations are a reality ,.......
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Lorraine Ford I have repeatedly, endlessly, described/ defined/ talked about what I mean by low-level and high-level consciousness, and low-level matter, and the mathematical aspects of the real-world system, etc.
I am sorry, but I have not seen. If you have many posts on it, it would not be a big effort to repeat it here? This is a vague and fuzzy term I am not used to. If it is just particles, atoms and molecules it is physics and chemistry? What is their consciousness?
I see consciousness as just a selection rule, attention, choice, but basically it is all of these possibilities, so not even a number can be applied to it, and we can ONLY get an output of this process as a difference, say 0 or 1 (something, or a change). This is the reason consciousness is not just information (entropy) and it is an ACTIVE process doing selections.
This consciousness must be fundamental (quantum), and universal, like the quantum uncertainty matrix itself, as it clearly has no goal, for it it does not matter what happens (bottom-up), but for us as conscious beings it matters (top-down), so if we see it from our point of view we select or we can maybe say 'create our realities', and every one of us create a different subjective reality (inner charachters). These differencies must be aligned or imposed on other? So the function of consciousness is this, to detect differencies and relax them by 'getting it' in our inner modelling or reality. To do this we have many paths or agencies, all with different goals, but still the top-down 'mind' or phase has to rule.
Imagine you have an x,y-axis and must compress it to a linear function in 1D or even in 0D (entanglement). No numbers are there, and how the heck can you find it in any other way than detecting the differencies it give out (products and tensors)?
Ulla Mattfolk
Hi Ulla,
I see the world as mathematical too, but I'm looking at the bigger picture, the bigger picture of origins.
Steve Dufourny
Hi Steve,
This is the way I see it:
We can’t say why there is something rather than nothing, we can only say that consciousness and creativity are the “somethings” about the world that can’t be explained. Consciousness and creativity are the first principles aspects of the world, whose existence has to be assumed, in order to make a world.
Consciousness and creativity are the necessary aspects required to make the world, because the world is a self-contained, self-sufficient, standalone system, with no assistance from the outside, where the world is defined as the ONLY thing that has no outside.
A theory of everything about the structure of the world starts with consciousness and creativity, and the structure of the world starts with:
- The creation of categories, and the creation of relationships between the categories.
- The creation of numbers which are then assigned to the categories.
Yet, consciousness and creativity are everyday aspects of the world.
Consciousness is the point-of-view, knowledge aspect of the world which is necessary in order for the world to know itself, starting with the foundational knowledge whereby the world knows its own categories, relationships and numbers. All higher-level knowledge/ consciousness is necessarily constructed out of this foundational knowledge.
Creativity/ free will is the essential aspect of the world which initially initiated number movement, by assigning numbers to the categories. But this initialising, creative aspect of the world didn’t atrophy at the beginning of the world.
Initially, the numbers were “jumped”. But I’m saying that the initiation of number movement, by assigning numbers to the categories, seems to be still happening. I’m saying that this number-jump number movement is essentially different to the number change that is due to the law-of-nature relationships.
Lorraine Ford
Hi Ulla,
I explain my idea of the bigger picture in my above reply to Steve.
Georgina Woodward
Hi Georgina,
As I said to Ulla, I think the world can only (to some extent) be explained in terms of a bigger picture view of the world.
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Lorraine Ford
QUOTE > Lorraine Ford ...., because the world is a self-contained, self-sufficient, standalone system, with no assistance from the outside, where the world is defined as the ONLY thing that has no outside. L,F.
BUT What about the rest of the solar system and Milkty way and beyond. Solar radation ,cosmic dust, asteroids e.t.c.
Lorraine Ford we can only say that consciousness and creativity are the “somethings” about the world that can’t be explained. Consciousness and creativity are the first principles aspects of the world, whose existence has to be assumed, in order to make a world.
L,F.
It is not any kind of real world if it does not have substance of some kind that is able to be at different concentrations and if it lacks energy to change through motion. Creativity and cosciousness as you think of them can not bring a material world into being or explain what they are.
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Georgina Woodward
"The World" is just another way of saying "The Universe"!!
A lot of people seem to use this terminology.
Also, the substance of the world is described in terms of categories, relationships and numbers. "Energy" is a category.
Lorraine Ford
Your "The World" means Universe-OK
You are already assuming there is mass, energy, different amounts allowing difference so that ther can be different catagories and relalationships .How that came about is not called into question or explained by your post It is not the first principle aspect of the world according toyou Why not.
Georgina Woodward
No, Georgina. I am not assuming any such things. On the contrary, YOU are assuming things, if I can correctly decode what you seem to be saying.
One of the topics of this thread is: “Why is there anything at all, why not nothing?” In relation to the topic of this thread, I said that:
We can’t say why there is something rather than nothing, we can only say that consciousness and creativity are the “somethings” about the world that can’t be explained. Consciousness and creativity are the first principles aspects of the world, whose existence has to be assumed, in order to make a world.
and
A theory of everything about the structure of the world starts with consciousness and creativity, and the structure of the world starts with:
- The creation of categories, and the creation of relationships between the categories.
- The creation of numbers which are then assigned to the categories.
Energy is NOT an entity; energy is a category that is related to other categories; energy is a category and it has a number associated with it.
But you seem to have built up a big story about energy being an entity. You seem to assume that there exists a primary entity, known to physics as energy, which has a mysterious will of its own. You seem to base everything you say on these false ideas, if I can correctly decode what you are saying.
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Lorraine Ford
I have not said that energy is an entity
''But you seem to have built up a big story about energy being an entity. You seem to assume that there exists a primary entity, known to physics as energy, which has a mysterious will of its own. You seem to base everything you say on these false ideas, if I can correctly decode what you are saying.":Lorraine Ford.
The preceeding paragrah is your own fantasy. it is not based on my own writing but may be it's based on what Lorraine has assumed without actuallty considering what has been said by someone else. I'm sorry you are not able to read and undesrtand meaning within written English , Lorraine, and think its ok to substitute it with Your own assumptions and prejudice.
I have, contrary to your statement, not built a big story about energy being an entity with a mysterious wilL lof its own. I do think the first law of thermodynanics is a good characterisation of the status quo.
There can be more or less of it. There is not a singular number associated with it, until there are creatures who can quantify the energy ,measuring it - applying a scale and using the selected scale to compare it with.
Energy does not exist independently of a host, that is either matter, particle, filled void :that ensemble causes other physical happenings.
The consciousness and creativity of the world can’t be explained.
If the world is assumed to be a self-contained, self-sufficient, standalone system, with no assistance from the outside, and if the world is defined as the ONLY thing that has no outside, then consciousness and creativity are the necessary aspects required to make the structure of the world.
The structure of the world didn’t start with the Big Bang. The structure of the world started with, what we would represent as, the creation of categories, the creation of relationships between categories, the creation of particular numbers, and the assignment of these numbers to the categories.
These very distinctive types of happenings can’t be dismissed or passed off as fluctuations, or as randomness, or as mathematically or logically necessary, or as mathematically or logically possible, or some other type of nonsensical claim.
And it is NOT the creation of the particular relationships known as laws of nature that is the issue, it is the creation of ANY relationships AT ALL that is the issue.
And it is the act of assigning a number to a completely different type of thing, a category, that can’t be passed off as “randomness”.
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Georgina Woodward
Georgina,
As I said, as opposed to normal English language, what you write has to be decoded. Look at the hastily written, unreviewed, half-sentences that you write; look at your appalling, unreviewed, spelling.
I think that the substance of the world is not different to its structure. When it comes to the structure of the world, energy is a structural category, with an associated number, that is lawfully related to other structural categories, with their associated numbers. Some of these numbers are continually changing, but energy is just a category: energy is not the sort of thing that can change its own numbers.
It is not true that the "ensemble causes other physical happenings"; your idea of "cause" is poorly thought out. But exactly what is changing the numbers that apply to the categories IS an issue. There are 2 sorts of number change: number jumps, and number change due to law-of-nature relationship. Seemingly, law-of-nature relationships are merely relationships: the relationships are not the things that are moving the world forward. Seemingly, the number jumps are the ONLY things that could be moving the world forward. So, the issue becomes: what entities are causing the number jumps?
Re your denial of the existence of numbers:
It is only fairly recently that human beings have known about these categories, relationships and numbers, and have been able to represent them symbolically. Irrespective of the measuring unit or scale used, the special mathematical symbols are an indication of the nature of the thing that is symbolised.
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Lorraine Ford
Your manners are appaulling. Your intollerance and biugoted opinions are hardly worth the time i give you. Do not presume and harshy judge others It IS AN UNATTRACTIVE TRAIT YOU HAVE. Mosr people with a brain cell to spare can understand written text even with spellng mistakes. They might even autocorrect and not notice them. AT LEAST MOST PEOPLE ARE POLITE ENOUGH NOT TO MAKE A BIG FUSS.
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Georgina Woodward
Your day-in, day-out, absolute indifference to your readers (if indeed any are to be found on this thread, or website) is appalling. I wonder why, e.g. news websites and serious articles, are not full of spelling mistakes and half-sentences and half-paragraphs? The reason is that they have a bit of respect for the intelligence of their readers. You have none. You even place totally irrelevant advertisements for your family members on this website. Truly amazing behaviour. If I remember right, you claim to be a former school teacher: I guess your standards have dropped quite a lot.
And as I previously commented:
- It is not true that the "ensemble causes other physical happenings"; your idea of "cause" is poorly thought out.
- You are seemingly denying the existence of numbers.
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Lorraine Ford
Your puffed up notion of moral superiority, when you do not know the circumstances is disgusting. Do not presume to know me or my motives. You demand I meet your standards for spelling and punctuation yet do not even know how to behave as a decent human being. Re. your response to 'THE BLIND MEN AND ELEPHANT PARABLE " I was told if you were one of the blind men you'd be the one with your arm stuck up the elephant's rear, feeling the s----.
- The first law of thermodynamics is important.
- Scale and referece frame are issues. In physics units must be given with a number, such as weight or distance or separation or energy. Atom mass is an exception as we can use counting the amount of protons in the atom.
One cup full is not the same as one teaspoon full.
Consciousness can be explained as an emergent phenomenon, only happening if the procressing that's occcuring can be sufficient for it. As it is due to the complexity of the brain structure, that allows slow procressing.
ANALOGIES; aeroplane wings give lift, because of difference in air flow, top and bottom. This is to do with macroscpic shape, not of shapes formed by the material alone.
The ventilation function of a termite mound is because of its particular form and positioning. To To do with the work of many termites . It is not a characteristic of the raw material.
Georgina Woodward
Georgina,
Do newspaper and magazine editors have a sense of puffed-up moral superiority when they demand that their contributors spell words correctly, and use actual sentences? I don't think it is too much to ask.
I think that you rely on analogies to explain the world: your blind men and elephant analogy; your socks analogy; your black cats analogy; your aeroplane wings analogy; your termite mounds analogy.
However, the world must be explained in terms of law of nature relationships and numbers. And when the world is looked at mathematically, nothing different emerges from a mathematical system, except maybe the superficial appearance of emergences that are only apparent from the point of view of something OUTSIDE the system. Consciousness CAN'T "be explained as an emergent phenomenon". I guess that is why more people are now thinking that a type of panpsychism might be the answer.
What does it mean to say that something is caused?
What caused the real-world system to exist? and What causes the real-world system to move?
To answer that, one needs to assume that the world is a self-contained, self-sufficient, standalone system, with no assistance from the outside, and that the world is the ONLY thing that has no outside.
- What caused the real-world system to exist?
I am re-framing the question as: what caused the categories, the law of nature relationships between the categories, and the numbers that apply to the categories, to exist? What caused the existence of ANY categories at all, ANY relationships at all, or ANY numbers at all? My answer is that the existence of categories, relationships and numbers can only be attributed to a creative aspect of the self-contained, self-sufficient, standalone world. A creative aspect of the world has to be assumed. This creation of the categories, relationships and numbers is a pre-physics aspect of the world.
- What causes the real-world system to move internally?
I am re-framing the question as: what causes the numbers, that apply to the categories, to move/ change/ jump? Movement in the real-world system is thought of as being initiated, at the beginning of the real-world system, when some numbers were assigned to some of the categories. In other words, a creative aspect of the self-contained, self-sufficient, standalone world actively assigned numbers to categories. This initial number assignment, together with the existing law of nature relationships, caused the first actual number movement.
Number assignment is NOT number movement. Number assignment can be compared to something outside the system intervening in the real-world system. But since we have assumed that the world is the only thing that has NO outside, this number assignment is a creative intervention that is occurring INSIDE the world.
This creative number assignment, together with the law of nature relationships, is the root cause of all number movement in the real-world system. And this type of creative, interventionary, number assignment is seemingly still occurring to this day.
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Lorraine Ford Hi Lorraine, yes I see your reasoning , I agree that we cannot say why there is something rather than nothing, it is a philosophial problem and we have these limitations about the main causes and their origin, all what we can is to understand , measure, analyse the parameters in our dimensions of analysis. I agree about consciousness and creativity like necessary aspects. The creations of categories, numbers , particles, fields are in a specific mechanism , we evolve each day , hope we shall have conrete answers in a near future, regards