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Lorraine Ford
QUOTE > Lorraine Ford ...., because the world is a self-contained, self-sufficient, standalone system, with no assistance from the outside, where the world is defined as the ONLY thing that has no outside. L,F.

BUT What about the rest of the solar system and Milkty way and beyond. Solar radation ,cosmic dust, asteroids e.t.c.

Lorraine Ford we can only say that consciousness and creativity are the “somethings” about the world that can’t be explained. Consciousness and creativity are the first principles aspects of the world, whose existence has to be assumed, in order to make a world.
L,F.

It is not any kind of real world if it does not have substance of some kind that is able to be at different concentrations and if it lacks energy to change through motion. Creativity and cosciousness as you think of them can not bring a material world into being or explain what they are.

          Lorraine Ford
          Your "The World" means Universe-OK
          You are already assuming there is mass, energy, different amounts allowing difference so that ther can be different catagories and relalationships .How that came about is not called into question or explained by your post It is not the first principle aspect of the world according toyou Why not.

              Georgina Woodward
              No, Georgina. I am not assuming any such things. On the contrary, YOU are assuming things, if I can correctly decode what you seem to be saying.

              One of the topics of this thread is: “Why is there anything at all, why not nothing?” In relation to the topic of this thread, I said that:

              We can’t say why there is something rather than nothing, we can only say that consciousness and creativity are the “somethings” about the world that can’t be explained. Consciousness and creativity are the first principles aspects of the world, whose existence has to be assumed, in order to make a world.

              and

              A theory of everything about the structure of the world starts with consciousness and creativity, and the structure of the world starts with:

              1. The creation of categories, and the creation of relationships between the categories.
              2. The creation of numbers which are then assigned to the categories.

              Energy is NOT an entity; energy is a category that is related to other categories; energy is a category and it has a number associated with it.

              But you seem to have built up a big story about energy being an entity. You seem to assume that there exists a primary entity, known to physics as energy, which has a mysterious will of its own. You seem to base everything you say on these false ideas, if I can correctly decode what you are saying.

                  Lorraine Ford
                  I have not said that energy is an entity
                  ''But you seem to have built up a big story about energy being an entity. You seem to assume that there exists a primary entity, known to physics as energy, which has a mysterious will of its own. You seem to base everything you say on these false ideas, if I can correctly decode what you are saying.":Lorraine Ford.
                  The preceeding paragrah is your own fantasy. it is not based on my own writing but may be it's based on what Lorraine has assumed without actuallty considering what has been said by someone else. I'm sorry you are not able to read and undesrtand meaning within written English , Lorraine, and think its ok to substitute it with Your own assumptions and prejudice.
                  I have, contrary to your statement, not built a big story about energy being an entity with a mysterious wilL lof its own. I do think the first law of thermodynanics is a good characterisation of the status quo.
                  There can be more or less of it. There is not a singular number associated with it, until there are creatures who can quantify the energy ,measuring it - applying a scale and using the selected scale to compare it with.
                  Energy does not exist independently of a host, that is either matter, particle, filled void :that ensemble causes other physical happenings.

                      The consciousness and creativity of the world can’t be explained.

                      If the world is assumed to be a self-contained, self-sufficient, standalone system, with no assistance from the outside, and if the world is defined as the ONLY thing that has no outside, then consciousness and creativity are the necessary aspects required to make the structure of the world.

                      The structure of the world didn’t start with the Big Bang. The structure of the world started with, what we would represent as, the creation of categories, the creation of relationships between categories, the creation of particular numbers, and the assignment of these numbers to the categories.

                      These very distinctive types of happenings can’t be dismissed or passed off as fluctuations, or as randomness, or as mathematically or logically necessary, or as mathematically or logically possible, or some other type of nonsensical claim.

                      And it is NOT the creation of the particular relationships known as laws of nature that is the issue, it is the creation of ANY relationships AT ALL that is the issue.

                      And it is the act of assigning a number to a completely different type of thing, a category, that can’t be passed off as “randomness”.

                      Georgina Woodward
                      Georgina,

                      As I said, as opposed to normal English language, what you write has to be decoded. Look at the hastily written, unreviewed, half-sentences that you write; look at your appalling, unreviewed, spelling.

                      I think that the substance of the world is not different to its structure. When it comes to the structure of the world, energy is a structural category, with an associated number, that is lawfully related to other structural categories, with their associated numbers. Some of these numbers are continually changing, but energy is just a category: energy is not the sort of thing that can change its own numbers.

                      It is not true that the "ensemble causes other physical happenings"; your idea of "cause" is poorly thought out. But exactly what is changing the numbers that apply to the categories IS an issue. There are 2 sorts of number change: number jumps, and number change due to law-of-nature relationship. Seemingly, law-of-nature relationships are merely relationships: the relationships are not the things that are moving the world forward. Seemingly, the number jumps are the ONLY things that could be moving the world forward. So, the issue becomes: what entities are causing the number jumps?

                      Re your denial of the existence of numbers:
                      It is only fairly recently that human beings have known about these categories, relationships and numbers, and have been able to represent them symbolically. Irrespective of the measuring unit or scale used, the special mathematical symbols are an indication of the nature of the thing that is symbolised.

                          Lorraine Ford
                          Your manners are appaulling. Your intollerance and biugoted opinions are hardly worth the time i give you. Do not presume and harshy judge others It IS AN UNATTRACTIVE TRAIT YOU HAVE. Mosr people with a brain cell to spare can understand written text even with spellng mistakes. They might even autocorrect and not notice them. AT LEAST MOST PEOPLE ARE POLITE ENOUGH NOT TO MAKE A BIG FUSS.

                              Georgina Woodward
                              Your day-in, day-out, absolute indifference to your readers (if indeed any are to be found on this thread, or website) is appalling. I wonder why, e.g. news websites and serious articles, are not full of spelling mistakes and half-sentences and half-paragraphs? The reason is that they have a bit of respect for the intelligence of their readers. You have none. You even place totally irrelevant advertisements for your family members on this website. Truly amazing behaviour. If I remember right, you claim to be a former school teacher: I guess your standards have dropped quite a lot.

                              And as I previously commented:

                              1. It is not true that the "ensemble causes other physical happenings"; your idea of "cause" is poorly thought out.
                              2. You are seemingly denying the existence of numbers.

                                  Lorraine Ford
                                  Your puffed up notion of moral superiority, when you do not know the circumstances is disgusting. Do not presume to know me or my motives. You demand I meet your standards for spelling and punctuation yet do not even know how to behave as a decent human being. Re. your response to 'THE BLIND MEN AND ELEPHANT PARABLE " I was told if you were one of the blind men you'd be the one with your arm stuck up the elephant's rear, feeling the s----.

                                  1. The first law of thermodynamics is important.
                                  2. Scale and referece frame are issues. In physics units must be given with a number, such as weight or distance or separation or energy. Atom mass is an exception as we can use counting the amount of protons in the atom.
                                    One cup full is not the same as one teaspoon full.
                                    Consciousness can be explained as an emergent phenomenon, only happening if the procressing that's occcuring can be sufficient for it. As it is due to the complexity of the brain structure, that allows slow procressing.
                                    ANALOGIES; aeroplane wings give lift, because of difference in air flow, top and bottom. This is to do with macroscpic shape, not of shapes formed by the material alone.
                                    The ventilation function of a termite mound is because of its particular form and positioning. To To do with the work of many termites . It is not a characteristic of the raw material.

                                      Georgina Woodward
                                      Georgina,

                                      Do newspaper and magazine editors have a sense of puffed-up moral superiority when they demand that their contributors spell words correctly, and use actual sentences? I don't think it is too much to ask.

                                      I think that you rely on analogies to explain the world: your blind men and elephant analogy; your socks analogy; your black cats analogy; your aeroplane wings analogy; your termite mounds analogy.

                                      However, the world must be explained in terms of law of nature relationships and numbers. And when the world is looked at mathematically, nothing different emerges from a mathematical system, except maybe the superficial appearance of emergences that are only apparent from the point of view of something OUTSIDE the system. Consciousness CAN'T "be explained as an emergent phenomenon". I guess that is why more people are now thinking that a type of panpsychism might be the answer.

                                          What does it mean to say that something is caused?

                                          What caused the real-world system to exist? and What causes the real-world system to move?

                                          To answer that, one needs to assume that the world is a self-contained, self-sufficient, standalone system, with no assistance from the outside, and that the world is the ONLY thing that has no outside.

                                          1. What caused the real-world system to exist?

                                          I am re-framing the question as: what caused the categories, the law of nature relationships between the categories, and the numbers that apply to the categories, to exist? What caused the existence of ANY categories at all, ANY relationships at all, or ANY numbers at all? My answer is that the existence of categories, relationships and numbers can only be attributed to a creative aspect of the self-contained, self-sufficient, standalone world. A creative aspect of the world has to be assumed. This creation of the categories, relationships and numbers is a pre-physics aspect of the world.

                                          1. What causes the real-world system to move internally?

                                          I am re-framing the question as: what causes the numbers, that apply to the categories, to move/ change/ jump? Movement in the real-world system is thought of as being initiated, at the beginning of the real-world system, when some numbers were assigned to some of the categories. In other words, a creative aspect of the self-contained, self-sufficient, standalone world actively assigned numbers to categories. This initial number assignment, together with the existing law of nature relationships, caused the first actual number movement.

                                          Number assignment is NOT number movement. Number assignment can be compared to something outside the system intervening in the real-world system. But since we have assumed that the world is the only thing that has NO outside, this number assignment is a creative intervention that is occurring INSIDE the world.

                                          This creative number assignment, together with the law of nature relationships, is the root cause of all number movement in the real-world system. And this type of creative, interventionary, number assignment is seemingly still occurring to this day.

                                          Lorraine Ford Hi Lorraine, yes I see your reasoning , I agree that we cannot say why there is something rather than nothing, it is a philosophial problem and we have these limitations about the main causes and their origin, all what we can is to understand , measure, analyse the parameters in our dimensions of analysis. I agree about consciousness and creativity like necessary aspects. The creations of categories, numbers , particles, fields are in a specific mechanism , we evolve each day , hope we shall have conrete answers in a near future, regards

                                            Georgina Woodward
                                            I have shared some music. With permission of the maker. I have not asked for any financial gain. I am not offering any kind of service. No pretty girls harmed. Anyone can listen for free at alexparry.bandcamp.com I think it is nice, don't listen if you don't want to.
                                            Upon review of this thread, I've noticed a spelling mistake that unfortunatelty changes the meaning of the sentence. individual tracks and albums can be lisened to free of charge. They can be bought individually or as collection if you choose to do that, for wh
                                            atever you think you ought to pay.There is no obligation to buy anything.

                                              The fact that physicists need to represent the real world with equations (representing law of nature relationships), categories (like mass or position), and numbers (that apply to the categories) means that the real world does indeed have relationship-like, category-like and number-like aspects.

                                              But the fact that moving systems need to be represented with logical connective symbols like IF, AND, OR, IS TRUE, and THEN, in addition to the symbols for relationships, categories and numbers, means that, in order to be a moving system, the real world does indeed need to have logical connective aspects.

                                              Out of all the abovementioned real-world aspects, only the real-world categories are potentially measurable. Numbers are the result of measurement, and relationships and logical connectives have to be inferred.

                                              Some logical connective symbols (like AND, OR, and IS TRUE) represent knowledge aspects of a moving system, and other logical connective symbols (like IF and THEN) represent creative/ free will aspects of a moving system.

                                              And note that, while they can both be thought of as "moving the numbers", the logical connective creative aspects of a moving system are entirely different to the relationship aspects of a moving system.

                                              The knowledge aspects of the real-world moving system, and the creative aspects of the real-world moving system, can’t be explained. But the relationship, category and number aspects can potentially be explained as being a product of the creative aspects of the real-world system.

                                                Lorraine Ford Hi, You d like a lot the book of Bob Coecke , quantum in pictures, I discussed with him on facebook and he beleives strongly that the relations are important between the systems. His book is more than relevant you know. He has sent me it in Finland. This Relational quantum mechanics (RQM) is a relevant idea for the interpretations of our QM because it tells mainly that the relation between the observer and the system give this relation of the quantum state. So the categories and numbers are important ..... I see many convergences with the ideas of Wheeler about the quantum informations. It seems evident that the most important is the relations between the objects , that could permit to better understand these quantum objects and their nature and philosophical origin in trying different mathematical partitions. If this QM is a theory about the physial description of physial systems, so these relations to others systems seem essential for a better understanding of this world.

                                                What I find important is that different observers give different analysis about the exact same system, it is mainly about the states and is essential because is relative to the observer. It is about the state vector, that is why there are relevances with the geometrial algebras, It is what I try to to with the spherical geometrical topological algebras, the tool that I have invented , and in trying to consider the degrees of freedom in the observations and in trying to apply the quantum , cosmological and our dimension scales. This observer dependence now becomes relevant about the consciousness and so these observations. So what is the rule of our consciousness and our observations philosophically speaking about the states of systems.....

                                                The measurements and the interpretations of QM so become philosophially relevant because give roads inside and beyond this relativity at my opinion. That gives paradox lie the EPR for example in cosmology but can be applied for the quantum scale or our scale, beause it is mainly about the observations and the observed objects and how we must consider this relativity. Everett has well developped these things. The importance so of categoroes, numbers and PROBABILITIES become more than essential . There are probably many experiments to do about these general ideas and reasonings giving a better understanding about the interpretations of this QM, That tells us even that our QM is a not complete theory simply and that we must add deeper fields, particles and philosophies.

                                                So Rovelli is right about the fact that we could modify our views of this world that we observe. That is why this relativity maybe imply confusions about the real states and also we have probably deeper physical parameters to superimpose. That is why the problem of hidden variables is moe complex that we can imagine because beyond this relativity , so Rovelli is right about the actual relativitic observations but maybe make a small error in telling that we have no hidden variables because simply they are beyond these observations. It gives even deep questions about the informations and their primary essence and even about what are the foundamental objects in going farer than this relativity, that is why I consider spheres in a fluidity for the 3 main systems , thre photons, DE and DM, and not strings in 1d in this relativistic spacetime connected at this quantum and cosnmologial scales, And after with the geometrical algebras like the E8 of lie they consider the scalars, vectors, tensors and extradiemnsions to explain this reality and its observations, this reasoning imply several philosophical road about a god or a mathematical accident but the problem is not there, the problem is about the foundamental objects and the cause of this reality .

                                                My interpretation so in my theory of spherisation , an optimisation evolution of the universe is a kind of mix with the relational QM, the Copenaghian one and the Hidden variables not relativistic and the aim with the spherical geometrical topologial algebras and these spheres like foundmamental objects is to rank the categories and dimensions with the observations and consciousness with kinds of bridges but not easy . I try with the 3 main cosmologial free systems and in converging for the ordinary matter like a result of 3 others merging with these bridges but complex with these salars, tensors , vectors,

                                                    Steve Dufourny
                                                    Hi Steve,

                                                    I doubt that the world is quite as mathematically complicated as some people (e.g. Bob Coecke) seem to think, because I think that there exist logical connective aspects of the world that people are trying to represent as mathematical relationships, and it can’t be done.

                                                    The bigger picture is that the world is necessarily a self-contained, self-sufficient, standalone thing. There is nothing outside the world. So, the world is necessarily creative: it created its own specific categories, mathematical relationships between categories, and numbers, as well as assigning some numbers to some of the categories, where number assignment is also a creative act. Creativity is a logically necessary aspect of the world, and it hasn’t disappeared.

                                                    But the abovementioned categories, relationships and numbers are insufficient to account for a moving system; a moving system also requires logical connective aspects. And a moving system also requires multiple entities, e.g. particles.

                                                    To represent a moving system, you need to use the type of logical connective symbols used in computer programs. The logical connective symbols AND, OR, and IS TRUE, are used in statements to represent knowledge of the numbers that apply to the categories. And the logical connective symbols IF and THEN, are used in statements to represent the assignment of numbers to the categories, in response to particular situations.

                                                    So, the multiple entities in the real-world moving system (e.g. particles) play a necessary part in a moving system because they perform these logically necessary "tasks" in a moving system:
                                                    • Knowledge/ consciousness/ being an observer.
                                                    • Creativity/ free will/ the ability to assign numbers to categories, i.e. the ability to “quantum number jump”.

                                                    But on the very important issue of relativity, I have nothing to say. Except to say that time is clearly a category that is not so much a mathematical relationship, but more like a category that is the result of a primitive logical analysis of a situation, an analysis that requires the system to have logical aspects. These logical aspects are performed by the entities in a moving system (e.g. particles).

                                                        The world is, not so much a set of equations and numbers, but a system where the equations and numbers play an important part.

                                                        What is most important in a system are the logical aspects that might well be described as “consciousness” and “creativity”. In a system, knowledge/ awareness of oneself and one’s surroundings, on the part of the elements in the system, is paramount. And also paramount in a system, is the ability to creatively respond to one’s surroundings, i.e. to “jump” the numbers. An equation, that represents an inevitable law, does NOT represent a creative response to one’s surroundings. Clearly, the equations represent a non-creative response to the creative “number jumps” that are undertaken by the elements of the system (e.g. particles) in response to situations encountered.

                                                        While the real world is a genuinely creative system, model systems need to substitute rules or algorithms for this creativity, because the elements in a model system are not like the creative, independent elements that comprise the real-world system.

                                                        In the real-world system, the elements of the system (e.g. particles or atoms) are clearly aware not only of (what we would represent as) numbers. The elements have done a primitive logical analysis, and they are aware of number change, and the category “time” reflects this awareness.

                                                          Lorraine Ford
                                                          (continued)

                                                          Re “time”:

                                                          In a system, either the elements of the system know their own situation, OR there is something outside the system watching the system that knows the situations of all the elements in the system. In a self-contained, self-sufficient, standalone real-world system, with nothing outside the system, it is the elements of the system that know their own surrounding situation.

                                                          The elements of the system need to know their own surrounding situation. The elements need to know if the numbers (that apply to the categories) have changed; this particular awareness is seemingly the source of a new category of information that we would describe as “time”. Time is seemingly a logically derived category of information.

                                                          Time is not duplicated. Time does not also exist as a dimension with no actual numbers (or what we would represent as numbers); this type of time (i.e. a dimension) has no utility because it has no actual numbers.