The Multiverse and Existential Scale | Robert Lawrence Kuhn

Lorraine Ford

What I can’t understand about some physicists and philosophers, is that they believe that a mathematical system underlies the world, the “bottom turtle” if you like, but that no further explanation is required for the bottom turtle’s existence, and no explanation is required for why the turtle is moving.

This goes to the question posed by Robert Lawrence Kuhn: "Why is there anything at all, why not nothing?".

It is clear that many physicists and philosophers have a straitjacket on their minds, and that any question of what underlies the bottom turtle is verboten.

Lorraine Ford

Lorraine Ford
(continued)

I’m guessing that these physicists and philosophers are mentally terrified by the thought that something must have created the mathematical structure and got it moving.

More particularly, I guess that they are terrified by all the nut-case religious nonsense in the world: it has seemingly been there ever since human beings first invented and used spoken and written word symbols.

But the obvious fact that a standalone self-sufficient world must have originally created its own mathematical structure, and got it moving, doesn’t imply any religious baggage or nonsense.

Lorraine Ford

Lorraine Ford
(continued)

So, my conclusion is that creativity and consciousness were there from the start of the world, and that the parts that comprise the world continue to be conscious and creative (i.e. able to freely jump their own numbers).

But those who can’t face up to the question of what underlies the “bottom turtle”, are forced to conclude that creativity and consciousness must have miraculously “emerged” from the mathematical structure.

Georgina Woodward

Lorraine Ford
Not a personal reply to the 'stuck in the mud, troll ' writer, but what was implied in the post.
BTW my writing has nothing to do with religion of any kind.
Why nothing at all has been addressed.
DIferentiation of existence is addressed in my competition entry , called 'Unverse soup and sandcastles'.

Lorraine Ford

Lorraine Ford
Georgina's response is seemingly because of my lack of precise language. I was not referring to Georgina at all in my last 3 comments. In fact, I had listened to a short video by Robert Lawrence Kuhn, which inspired me to make a comment, relevant to the issue of "Why is there anything at all, why not nothing?". What I actually meant by my last comment was:

(continued)

But those physicists and philosophers who can’t face up to the question of what underlies the “bottom turtle”, are forced to conclude that creativity and consciousness must have miraculously “emerged” from the mathematical structure.

Lorraine Ford

To represent a moving system, like the real-world moving system, one needs to use a computer program, or something like a computer program. A collection of law-of-nature equations, or any collection of equations, will not do the job.

What a computer program represents, as opposed to what collection of equations represents, is the ability to interrogate the system’s numbers (that apply to the categories), and the ability to move the system’s numbers (that apply to the categories) in response to the system’s number situation, or in response to an analysis of the system’s number situation. A computer program represents the fact that a system needs to move its numbers (that apply to the categories) in a way that is completely independent of any equations (which represent relationships between the categories).

A computer program represents the system knowing itself, and the system freely moving itself, completely independently of any law of nature relationships.

When it comes to the question posed by Robert Lawrence Kuhn: "Why is there anything at all, why not nothing?", one has to account for the fact that the real world has been a moving system from the very start. And to account for a moving system, one needs to account for the fact that a viable moving system needs to know itself, and a viable moving system needs to move itself independently of any law of nature relationships.

Georgina Woodward

In my essay I wrote about the substance from which all else is made, the base, ( base here meaning, like the base of a soup,) Though particulate matter and materials are made from it, it is not itself necessarily particulate but could be continuous.
Partial displacement of this space filling substance occurs ( by particulate matter, i.e. made of atoms or ions, which has spaces inside and in the gaps between particles too), causes a pressure-like force acting on all other matter in the vicinity, the sphere of influence or region of distortion of the space filling base substance. Characterized by the formula for Newtonian gravity.
It has suggested by, another theorist, that partial displcement could be a reason for gravity being a relatively weak force. The effect of Gravity is that all other matter within its sphere of influence is pushed towards the Earth’s surface. Gravity’s effect on bodies of matter and materials containing atoms, or ions called gravitational potential energy,an attribute that the object is thought of as posessing (noticed as a tendency of objects to fall down towards the ground,) Gravitational potential energy, potential to fall, becomes movement energy as the object or material falls. Example. As the water, making together a river, travels from high ground to the sea. Gravitational potential energy is said to have become movement energy.
If the unknown, hypothesized, space filling base substance is not matter or material containing atoms or ions or particulate in some way, but instead continuous, immaterial (meaning, not made of matter) is a correct description., not implying anything unnatural or requiring a theological ,mythological or religious explanation. Neither does this require clutching at straws to avoid an infinity of turtles at the tail end of reductionism.

Lorraine Ford

Why is the world moving? No one knows. They only know that IF some numbers (that apply to the categories) move or jump, other numbers (that apply to other categories) will be found to have moved or jumped in a way that is consistent with the law-of-nature relationships between categories.

And how come the world know itself? No one knows. But out of all the possible combinations of categories, mathematical relationships and numbers that could possibly exist, the world knows that its own particular and distinctive combination of categories, mathematical relationships and numbers is the relevant one. And when the on-the-spot numbers (that apply to the categories) change, the world knows/ identifies/ distinguishes these changed numbers out of all the numbers that could possibly exist, and knows that they apply to those particular categories, out of all the categories that could possibly exist.

To put the knowledge issue another way: the mere existence of very particular and distinctive categories, relationships, and numbers at the foundations of the world does NOT imply that the world has knowledge of these particular and distinctive categories, relationships, and numbers. But in fact, IN OPERATION, the world knows/ discerns that a particular category applies and not any other of the possible categories; and IN OPERATION, the world knows/ discerns that a particular relationship applies and not any other of the possible relationships, and IN OPERATION, the world knows/ discerns that a particular number applies, and not any other of the possible numbers.

So, the world moves itself, and the world knows itself.

So, when the question is asked: "Why is there anything at all, why not nothing?", this question is in effect asking: "Why are there particular and distinctive structural categories, mathematical relationships and numbers at the foundations of the world, and why is the world moving itself, and how come the world knows itself?"

Georgina Woodward

That we detect the environment external to our bodies with our senses is evidence of something existing, even if we do not detect it exactly as it is now. We must exist in differences in concentration of whole particles.
Differences in the number of proton particles ,in the nucleus of an atom (GIVING DIFFERENCES IN MEASURABLE ATOMIC MASS) allows many different kinds or atoms , giving many different kinds element and lots of different materials made of them. Different combinations of elements as mixtures and compounds, allowing further different material from which things can be made. Different objects, are bodies of matter and are accumulations of different materials shaped by the forces of nature or work performed by human, other organism or human made device.

Georgina Woodward

Georgina Woodward
Matter is not static it is always accompanied by energy. 'Stuff happens;. Matter is a happening, even when 'static' atoms or ion are vibrating due to thermodynamic effects on it. The forces all have disturbance or distortion of the base substance allowing communication to a body of matter. GRAVITY is 'all over' displacement space as time passes ,not in a curved single plane of space-time (hyerbolic 4D diagram) shown in common illustration of gravity, due to the presence of a body of matter, which is permeable to the base substance. Other forces occur due to different kinds of disturbance of the base substance. Electromagnetic radiation from radio to gamma is transmitted by waves of different frequency according to type. Magnetic and electrical forces are disturbances due to relative movement of charges.

Georgina Woodward

Georgina Woodward
Single permeable particles of matter are not of sufficient mass to cause significant distortion of the base substance but not so massive to be unmoved by the wave disturbance and interference patterns of interacting waves within the base substance, up to bucky-ball size.
Macroscopic and astronomic bodies of matter, distorting space by their large pressence, are too large to be ordinarily moved. by vibrations in the environment. It could be contrived, using very loud bass or intense infra sound and perhaps radio frequency to cause large scale vibrations of sufficient amplitude. Sympathetic amplification of infrasound, that can pass through buildIngs, for example caused by industry, could account for otherwise inexplible movement of objects, which is therefore considered paranormal.
For this reason,i.e,. difFerent effects due to scale, is why there is no quantuim gravity to be found.

Georgina Woodward

Georgina Woodward
Bass and infrasound are both sound energy, that travel though the medium of air. Radio waves are part of the elecfromagnetic spectrum, ('light'energy) I think they use the inpercetible base substance as their medium of transmission.

Lorraine Ford

Human beings and their God-stories:
Human beings have always tended to believe that they were the centre of the universe; and when they created God-stories, once again human beings were at the centre of the story, with the animals and plants, and other aspects of the natural world, relegated to the position of stage props.

Nothing has changed, and human beings still see themselves as the centre of the universe, and the pinnacle of creation, and many see themselves as being tracked by a God who is interested in the minutiae of their behaviour.

Why does the mathematical infrastructure of the world exist?
If you can cut out humanity’s self-centred God-stories of creation, it is not illogical to conclude that the universe itself must be a standalone, creative and self-powered "entity": there can be no meddling from the outside because there IS no outside.

So, if the world is in fact genuinely standalone and self-powered, it can’t be concluded that the mathematical infrastructure, that underlies everything in the world, simply exists in the world for no reason, as a type of natural phenomenon. Instead, it must reasonably be concluded that the world itself ex-nihilo-created its own mathematical infrastructure.

But why is the world moving? What is a viable, moving system?
If there is ONE thing that symbolic computer systems have demonstrated, it is this: that any viable moving system needs to be able to know its own number situation, and needs to be able to jump its own numbers in response to numerically-represented situations. So, in order to be a viable moving system, it is necessary that the world knows its own numbers, and has the power to creatively jump its own numbers. I.e. something describable as creativity and consciousness were necessarily there from the very start of the world.

However, many physicists and philosophers, who seem completely unaware of the necessary requirements for a viable moving system, are forced to conclude that creativity and consciousness must have miraculously “emerged” from the mathematical structure.

Lorraine Ford

The world is not explainable in terms of complicated high-level phenomena. The world is not explainable in terms of Georgina’s high-level phenomena like rivers, high ground and low ground, blind men and elephants, termite mounds, black cats, aeroplane wings or socks. The high-level world is only explainable in terms of phenomena at the relatively uncomplicated physics-level of the world.

However, even the physics-level of the world can’t be assumed. What is the explanation for the physics-level of the world? Seemingly physicists and philosophers just give up, at this point, and assume that the base-level mathematical structure of the world just simply exists. Similarly, they just assume that the world moves, with no explanation for why the mathematics would ever move. (Despite the fact that physics’ equations symbolically describe movement, these equations can never explain movement. Seemingly, this is why physicists are so outraged and perplexed by quantum number jumps.)

This is the point at which one has to assume that the world/ universe created its own structure, and assume that the world moves its own structure. The world, seen as a standalone, self-sufficient, self-powered “entity”, with no meddling from the outside because there IS no outside, necessarily created its own mathematical structure, and necessarily moves its own mathematical structure.

Underlying the structure of both the high-level world and the low-level world that we observe is nothing but creativity and consciousness.

Lorraine Ford

The question: "Why is there anything at all, why not nothing?", must also deal with the issue of why the world/ universe, which is seemingly a self-sufficient standalone thing, is internally moving.

Quite apart from any movement on the part of the universe that would be required to create the mathematics of the universe, i.e. to create the categories, mathematical law-of-nature relationships and numbers, there is also the question of why the numbers that apply to the categories would be moving/ changing/ jumping.

The possible mechanisms of number movement in the universe are seemingly as follows:

The mathematical law-of nature relationships are active and powerful entities that, e.g. in interactions, decide on the magnitude and the direction of number change, and smoothly drive number change forward, where these numbers apply to the categories, and where these categories in turn describe aspects of a victimlike matter.
 In this view, numbers are envisaged as things that exist on a line or in a graph, that can smoothly morph into other adjacent numbers on the line or in the graph that represents all the possible numeric values for the category.
 The law-of-nature relationships have a “behaviour” that can only potentially be represented algorithmically, i.e. with logical connective symbols.
The categories (e.g. mass, energy, or position) are the active and powerful number-change entities.
The numbers are the active and powerful number-change entities.
The matter that, collectively, comprises the universe, is the active and powerful entity. Matter is where the categories, relationships and numbers all come together in one spot, so to speak, a situation that can only potentially be represented algorithmically, i.e. with logical connective symbols connecting them all together.
 In this view, numbers can’t be envisaged as existing on a line or in a graph that represents all the possible numeric values for the category.
 Instead, numbers can only be seen as relationships between categories, where the numerator and denominator categories cancel out, or as the down the track consequence of such relationships between categories. New numbers (i.e. new relationships) need to be created, rather than all possible numbers eternally existing.
 In order for number movement in a small part of the universe to occur, new numbers must be created and assigned to categories, BY MATTER. This number jump results in other numbers, that apply to other categories, changing due to the law-of-nature relationships between the categories.
 Matter has a behaviour that can only potentially be represented algorithmically, i.e. with logical connective symbols.

I’m going with mechanism 4. So, the universe is internally moving because the matter, that collectively comprises the “substance” of the universe, is moving it. This is a view where primitive matter already has the inherent algorithmic qualities needed for life.

Lorraine Ford

Lorraine Ford
(continued)

So, what is the nitty-gritty mechanism of a real-world mathematical system; why are the numbers moving?

The equations (e.g. equations representing laws of nature) are merely the bare bones of a mathematical system: they don't contain the details of how a viable system (e.g. the real-world mathematical system) would in fact work.

In contrast to mere equations, a computer program requires that EVERY single implicit detail that is in effect hidden in the symbolic equations, EVERY single implicit detail that is hidden in the minds of the people who write the symbolic equations, must explicitly be included in the computer program, in order for the computer program to work as required.

This is what I mean by the nitty-gritty mechanism of a real-world mathematical system. The necessary mechanism needed to move the real-world numbers must be made explicit; but the fact is that the necessary mechanism can only be represented algorithmically, using logical connective symbols. Logical connective symbols represent necessary aspects of a viable real-world system, aspects that can't be represented in terms of categories, relationships or numbers.

There are necessary aspects of the real-world mathematical system that can only be symbolically represented as logical connectives. These aspects of the world must be accounted for when the question is asked: "Why is there anything at all, why not nothing?"

Lorraine Ford

The physics origin story of the world is just plain wrong.

I’m talking about the fanciful notion that mathematics and mathematical equations can just exist at the foundations of the world, and that mathematics can’t be, or doesn’t need to be, explained.

This fanciful notion is obviously based on the similar fanciful notion that what is represented by man-made mathematics can just exist (perhaps in the man-made concept of a Platonic realm) without the consciousness, creativity and agency of human mathematicians.

A clear-eyed, non-romantic look at mathematics and mathematicians would soon consign these ridiculous notions to the dustbin:

Mathematics does NOT exist without the consciousness, creativity and agency of human mathematicians.

And similarly, the mathematics at the foundations of the world can’t be thought to just exist, with no explanation necessary from physicists.

Georgina Woodward

Lorraine Ford https://forums.fqxi.org/d/4256-

Does mathematics just inherantly exist ?i.e. have being of somekind or is it an abtract, immaterial thing? We like it, because it adheres to definite rules , giving black or white anwers. Unlike the more complicated ,'messy' real world of enginners amd scientists working in vivo. Mathematics used to be regarded as an art. Despite its uses in the sciences I think it is still an art. A great artist my produce a sculpture of superlative accuracy and pois, modelling the human form perectly. It is still art. An expression of ideas and emotions and communication of experience.
According to Plato, art is false knowledge of reality. An artist's imitation can deceive common people, not the philosopher, who knows the essence of reality or the real being of things." 5 Aug 2019 study.com via google search.

Lorraine Ford

Georgina Woodward
“... Mathematics ... art ... According to Plato ...”. lol.

You always manage to come up with a load of absolutely irrelevant nonsense . lol.

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