FQxI's Essay Competition Asks How Quantum is Life? Plus Plant Intelligence, Phys

Lorraine Ford

Ulla Mattfolk
Hi Ulla,
No, death was not on my mind.
What WAS on my mind was: "what possible information could anyone get out of photons?" Individually, each photon doesn't possess much information, in terms of categories like frequency and associated numbers. It is only when a whole lot of photons are analysed, including photons that arrive at different times and from different relative positions or angles, that you can get bigger-picture information out of this type of situation.

Ulla Mattfolk

Lorraine Ford the photon is different because it is timeless (t=0, or the same as c) so it has no duration, and it has many places at once like a quantum state. I think there is a quantum computer in Japan built on one photon alone and it can do many things. The quantum link is interesting here.

Light take part in nerve functions and in receptor function. Also genetranscription is ruled by light.

Photons can be analyzed from different views. In biology it is the coherent signal that is interesting, It means bursts of light, not one photon only.
regards, Ulla M.

Lorraine Ford

As is usual, the authors of “Biophotons: A Hard Problem” (1) talk about information without ever being able to define upfront what they mean by information. This is an ubiquitous problem, and it has been happening for many decades: when it comes to information, everyone talks about it, but no one can say upfront what they are talking about.

So, having never defined what they mean by the world “information”, it is pretty meaningless for the authors to suggest that: “organisms use [biophotons] to exchange information” (1).

Are the authors using “information” as a euphemism for another less-palatable word, e.g. “entropy”? If so, then they shouldn’t hijack the word “information”.

But I’m suggesting that basic-level information is subjective point-of-view knowledge, on the part of primitive matter, of what categories and numbers are true and/or what categories and numbers are false, when it comes to matter’s current internal environment, and matter’s current surrounding environment.

So, as opposed to the authors of the paper, if I said: “organisms use biophotons to exchange information”, it would actually have a defined meaning.

Biophotons: A Hard Problem. 11 authors including Catalina Curceanu, Appl. Sci. 2024, 14(13), 5496; https://doi.org/10.3390/app14135496 .

Steve Dufourny

Ulla Mattfolk
I think Lorraine raises an important point about information and life. It is, in fact, a philosophical problem. The issue again comes from this idea of general relativity and photons being the sole and unique primary essence. Information could be far more complex and not limited to photons alone.

Catalina is doing good work and is looking for explanations regarding life and intelligence through biophotons and plants, but it seems that the answer lies beyond our current relativistic reasoning.

Life, death, consciousness, and intelligence...... all have specific mechanisms, but to categorize everything simply as photons and their movements and oscillations seems philosophically reductive.

regards

Ulla Mattfolk

Steve Dufourny No, Steve. Biophotons are scattered light from (decay?) processes in the body, so it is different from GR. You can maybe best compare to vision, we see our environment from scattered light as it encodes the details. The amount of information in one visual image is enormous. This means the light is bent in many different ways, refracted. In this case we can 'see' our inner body work. It is interesting but difficult because it is so weak. There is also a theory of 'dark photons' that can interact non-locally etc.

Information can be entropical 'noise', often the background and we try to filter it out. Or 'real', meaning coherent as signal. The most electronegative elements like O often include lightscattering in its reactions. Is this noise or real signal? It depends on what we look for? One is creation of ROS reactive oxygen radicals (mitochondrion). In small amounts it can be even healthy,but not in cascades so much. Another is receptors like Danko Nikolic has looked at (NMDA receptors) and the excitatory glutamate in nervefunctions,often tied to neurological disorders. This is the information. We must include from where this light comes and what story it tells.

Regarding intelligence there is some researhon a redshift of this inner light, as instance. See this: Human high intelligence is involved in spectral redshift of biophotonic activities in the brain | PNAS

Catalina does a good work, indeed. And she is not alone. Of course biophotons is just one aspect, but as a weak signal it can control many events in the body.
Ulla.

Steve Dufourny

Ulla Mattfolk
Hello Ulla,
You haven’t understood what I meant. I’m not talking about the signals and transfers of information inside the body. Yes, biophotons do carry information within the body, but that’s not what we’re discussing here.
We’re talking about the fact that the primary information from the universe about the origin of life and other phenomena, does not necessarily come from light, photons, or general relativity. There is a difference.

Information can indeed be different, but here we’re referring to the primary information, which may not originate from photons, cosmologically speaking.

Regards.

Steve Dufourny

Ulla Mattfolk

Biophotons are very weak light emissions produced by living organisms, including plants, animals, and humans. They are typically in the visible and ultraviolet range and are emitted spontaneously by cells during various metabolic and biochemical reactions, so yes they carry informations inside the bodies,

This light is not visible to the naked eye because the intensity is extremely low ,for me they are mainly about communications and regulations in the cells and bodies but don t explain the origin of the life generally speaking.......

Ulla Mattfolk

Steve Dufourny So you want to expand the biophotons to universal observations? Yes, also there light is one of the more important, but also other frequencies are used in the spectrum, like x-rays etc. Also these are scattered light, that is why they carry the information to us, but a bit distorted many times. The observation through electromagnetic spectrum is however limited, as we all know, and we look for other sources that reach longer. One is gravitational waves, but this doesnot work well for biophotons in the plant body? Neutrinos was once thought to be another, but it did not travel FTL. Maybe we must link in some Mach here?
Ulla.

Ulla Mattfolk

Steve Dufourny it is a signal of life, I did not say it creates life. If anything it can be related to 'the soul' seen as living chemical reactions. When we die we see interesting changes, like this biophotonic field fades away, that is what I talked about. Does this means the quantum of Life cease to work?
As a signal of coherence it can maybe tell something about consciousness too, but as a messenger, not as a creator?
Ulla.

Steve Dufourny

Ulla Mattfolk
Biophotons are biological emissions of light inside living systems.
They respond: Yes, light (photons) is important universally, but we also observe other frequencies across the electromagnetic spectrum ,X-rays, gamma rays, etc.
However, these cosmic signals are scattered and distorted on their journey to us, so the information they carry is not always “pure.”
Observation is limited if we only use the electromagnetic spectrum; scientists also study gravitational waves or neutrinos to get deeper information about the cosmos but it is a kind of philosophical prison about the origin of the life, it is this that I insisted.
But: those phenomena don’t directly relate to biophotons (inside bodies), because gravitational waves are incredibly weak at biological scales. The gravitons maybe don t exist but of course we don t know.
In cosmology, we infer information about the universe through signals (light, neutrinos, gravitational waves).
In biology, you’re looking at biophotons as carriers of information, communications, regulations....
But cosmic signals ≠ biophotons, because:
Cosmic signals are huge-scale physical processes (stars, black holes, cosmic microwave background).
Biophotons are cellular-scale weak emissions linked to metabolism.
But What I tell is about the deeper logics universally speaking about the primary informations permitting the life and the universe and this reality that we observe, the main informations are not in this GR , it is what I explained.

Regards

Ulla Mattfolk

Ulla Mattfolk One more point. When we say plants react to gravity (tropism), it is an organizational principle, so the green part strive against light and the roots strive away from light, but is it really gravity they react to? Maybe experiments with plants in microgravity could tell us more? When I have tried to search this it is also about electromagnetism more?

I give this to AI:
Gravity is the 'Set Point': Plants in microgravity still exhibit a form of orientation, but it is primarily governed by light (phototropism). This shows that while gravity provides the dominant vertical set-point on Earth, light is the most important organizational principle for the green parts.

Roots are Confused: Roots, which rely heavily on the gravitational pull to direct their statoliths, often become disoriented in microgravity, growing randomly unless a light source is provided as an alternative cue.

The EM Clue: These experiments often reinforce the idea that the plant is responding to a vector field—either the light field (EM radiation) or a residual EM field—rather than the mass effect of gravity itself.

Steve Dufourny

Ulla Mattfolk

It is mainly the philosophical prolem of origin of life, and all in fact I try to differenciate. This GR has created a philosophical prison , now we have difficulties to go farer or to think beyond the box. We know the electromagnetic spectrum and the frequances (radio, IR, visible, UV, X-rays, gamma).
We know the scattering and distortion: cosmic dust, gas, and expansion of the universe distort these signals.
We know gravitational waves: good for huge-scale cosmic events (black hole mergers), but almost undetectable in biology or the neutrinos: nearly massless particles that can pass through matter but no evidence of biological signaling.

So, from a strictly scientific perspective, linking biophotons (micro-scale biological emissions) directly to cosmic information (macro-scale universal signals) isn’t supported by evidence yet. and it is there also the problem, they try to unify this also in considering like I told the photons and GR like primary essence of all, that is why even the points or strings in 1D at this planck scale connected with a 1d cosmic field of the GR and the geometric algebras or strings maths try to unify all due to hilosophy chosen generally.
Local systems (like cells or living beings) might somehow be influenced by the global structure of the universe, yes but how , is it if the photons the key and their oscillations, I doubt.
Biophotons Cosmic photonic signals, Universal primary information = a hypothesis about the ultimate source or “code” of life and physics and where is the truth , it is this I told about the main primary informations that I consider in this DE encoding photons and DM to create the ordinary matter. It is specualtive but the photons also like primary essence ......regards

Steve Dufourny

Ulla Mattfolk but let s speak about the work of Catalina and biophotons emitted by living plants,
Whether such emissions could be part of a quantum-coherent biological communication system,
And whether quantum effects (like superposition, coherence, and entanglement) might play a role in plant intelligence or even consciousness. The core question that said is philosophical when it sits at the intersection of quantum physics, biology, and philosophy of information.
Quantum effects (like tunneling or coherence) happen inside biological systems, but life itself remains classical at large scales like quantum photosynthesis, enzyme tunneling, ......
Life, consciousness, and intelligence emerge from quantum information processes, yes ,meaning quantum mechanics is essential to the very phenomenon of life but we have these deep limitations .
This is speculative about the consciousness or the origin of the life, explored by thinkers like Penrose & Hameroff (Orch-OR theory) or Curceanu’s own investigations.
Biophotons are ultraweak photon emissions from living tissues, especially plants.
Some researchers hypothesize that these photons could exhibit quantum coherence.
If true, that might mean biological systems use light signals to maintain order, synchronization, or even information exchange at a fundamental level. This is interesting I agree. However experimental evidence for coherent biophoton signaling remains weak or debated.
the most important question is , is it products of metabolic oxidation or quantum information carriers. Curceanu’s approach is more open-ended, she doesn’t claim certainty ,she’s testing whether quantum phenomena could underlie these biological light emissions.
In the same podcast, other physicists discuss foundational debates about how they feel on controversial topics like:
The black hole information paradox,Quantum interpretations (Copenhagen, Many-Worlds, Pilot-Wave, etc.),the multiverse hypothesis,fine-tuning and the anthropic principle...all this is interesting because the problem is purely philosophical about the origin of the life and the consciousness and the universe even. How reality is structured, this is the question, we cannot affirm to know the truth. The same for the implications of the AI evolving and the automata proccess, what are thye philosophical and deontological points to consider like the ethics knowing our philosophical , mathematical, physical limitations about the informations I told. The continuum of information universally speaking being the key and we must be prudent knowing these said limitations. How the universal quantum informations are encoded ......why the evolution, why this and that....
The universe itself could be an informational system where life and matter emerge from the same quantum fabric. But what is this quantum fabric.

Ulla Mattfolk

Steve Dufourny I don't know what to say about all that. What you tell could fit some universal Machian interaction, or global phase transformation (imaginary=)? In some way that information should be interactive also? To be or not to be... like a geometric measuring of DoF or complexity? But this is another question, and this must also be outside causality, I think. It is hard to formulate what it could be.

Biophotons is about causality and order - disorder, so entropic information about a dynamicity. One fact is also it is not so much depending on temperature, if we think quantum, it is more about the network of info? If we think 'quantum of Life' this is good news?

Ulla Mattfolk

Lorraine Ford Laws of nature CAN’T explain why the world moves or keeps moving. Similarly, laws of nature, including what might be labelled “quantum mechanisms”, CAN’T explain why LIFE would ever arise or persist.

Laws of nature are relationships between categories (e.g. categories like mass or position), represented in the form of equations. Laws of nature CAN’T explain why the world would ever move or keep moving, i.e. why the numbers that apply to the categories would ever change. Laws of nature merely say that IF some numbers move, THEN other numbers will move in response, as a result of mathematical relationship.

Similarly, quantum mechanics can’t explain why the numbers that apply to the categories would ever move or jump.

Unable to explain why the numbers would ever move, laws of nature plus quantum mechanisms, CAN’T explain why LIFE, with its internal and external movement, would ever arise or persist.

The actual issue pertinent to life is that, even pre-life, the world was already moving its own numbers, and the world already knew itself (i.e. knew, or had information about, its own categories, relationships and numbers).

One possible answer is we must put Life back into universe as a fundamental 'consciousness of all possible states' starting point from which all is derived.

Ulla Mattfolk

Steve Dufourny Gurkwitch experiment is mentioned.
Mitogenetic radiation (which is a historical term for biophotons involved in cell division) is light, specifically in the Ultraviolet (UV) range (190−240 nm), and quartz is used because it transmits this UV light far better than ordinary glass.

The difference comes down to the molecular structure and purity of the materials. Normal glass is not pure. The SiO2 glass of high purity and a more uniform molecular structure allow a wide spectrum of UV light, including the range associated with mitogenetic radiation (190−240 nm), to pass through with very little absorption.

There is an exp. with this where infections could be spread by pure quartz but not by normal glass, and this has occupied my mind now and then. The microbes cannot pass, but the recieving box get sick, so it must be the info? In cancer research there exist similar exp, I think. This is interesting, indeed.
Ulla.

Lorraine Ford

Ulla, Steve,

Do “organisms use biophotons to exchange information”?
Maybe. But first, one must define what one means by “information”:

In order to be useful to a real-world mathematical system, information can only be the system’s time-place knowledge/ awareness of what numbers, categories and relationships are on-the-spot currently true.

This is because existence does NOT imply knowledge of existence. The mere physical existence of numbers, categories and relationships does not imply that a real-world mathematical system would know about their existence. So, knowledge/ information is a necessary part of a real-world mathematical system.

So, information is NOT physical: information is knowledge of the physical.

Information is the real-world system’s time-place knowledge/ awareness of itself. This information is possessed by the time-place elements of the real-world system, i.e. physical matter.

…………………..

Masses and masses of basic-level information (about numbers, categories and relationships) is not much use to a living organism, and this basic-level information must undergo quite a bit of collation and analysis by the organism, in order to acquire higher-level, more useful, summary information about the organism’s current situation.

…………………..

Organisms might have low-level biophoton particle interactions. And obviously, these particle interactions would change the current time-place physical situation of the organism; so the organism's current time-place knowledge/ awareness/ information about its physical situation would also change.

But organisms can’t “exchange information” as such because information is an individual time-place organism’s time-place knowledge/ awareness of its current physical situation.

Ulla Mattfolk

Lorraine Ford So, information is NOT physical: information is knowledge of the physical.

You have a point here. We can count DoF and microstates and complexity, but it is not the states themselves, but the information we extract from their organization we use. We can probe that info by putting it in math relations, but we cannot be sure it is the truth we find, we can only find a correlation or not. If the odds are high we call it a truth, but i is a limited truth. We try to find knowledge about the relations, but our ignorance is always bigger that te knowledge the states have themselves. This we forget in our consciousness discussion. And biophotons and other vectors are just messengers.
Ulla.

Lorraine Ford

Ulla Mattfolk
Yes, we can’t ever exactly know or exactly experience what information or knowledge resides in the consciousness of other matter, or other organisms, we can only measure and analyse and model.

But the fact that the real world is mathematical (i.e. we need to represent it mathematically) means that we can logically surmise that a real-world mathematical system would need an information/ knowledge aspect, whereby the system (or small parts of the system) knows about its own numbers, categories and relationships.

But we can also logically surmise that a real-world mathematical system would need a causal aspect, whereby the system (or small parts of the system) initiates its own movement (i.e. continually moves or jumps some of its own numbers that apply to the categories, whereby other numbers also move or jump due to the mathematical relationships between categories).

So, the information/ knowledge aspect of a system, is related to, but not the same as, the causal aspect of a system.

Lorraine Ford

Lorraine Ford
(continued)

So, I'm saying that consciousness is information or knowledge about a real-world physical situation. So consciousness doesn't do anything; consciousness can't cause anything; e.g. consciousness can't cause quantum wavefunction collapse.

Cause/ agency/ creativity is a different aspect of the world to the information/ knowledge/ consciousness aspect of the world.

PlatinumWildcat

Lorraine Ford Consciousness IS STRUCTURED ENERGY PROCESS, an operator. I explain: Time as a thing do not exist, time as a background do not exist. Time is a Dual OPERATOR that in a no vacuum world- we agree- to observe the observed have to separate the *observed * from the *whole, than the * printed * image is inverted in the brain this is first Time Operator. The second time operator-the internal one- will separate the observed from the observer -selfidentity* and from the process of observation. The upper operator QUALIA that observe the dual time operators will label the observed and the process of observation and the conscience validate all those operators creating the reality as a labeled coherence that we name experience of time and space and reality. All what exist is structured energy so those operators are also that.The thoughts are also energy and in a non vacuum reality yes can affect the observed