Interferometric detection of gravitational waves: understanding if Einstein\'s General Relativity is the correct and definitive theory of gravity will be Ultimately Possible in Physics by Christian

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REPLY I TO CORDA

CORDA: Actually, we measure exactly the rate of passage of time.

In particular, we measure the variation of the flight-time of a photon when a gravitational wave is present, in respect to

the flight-time of a photon when a gravitational wave is absent.This is performed by using interferometry.

Can you give more details of your idea on disintegrating nuclide?

LEBEL: The idea here is to measure the actual variation in the rate of passage of time as the wave passes us. Gravity is a differential in the rate of passage of time..(W.Unruh, not verbatim) so a GW would be like a traveling wave of variation in the rate of passage of time??

For this detection, I suggest radio-active nuclides which disintegration rate should fluctuate as the local rate of passage of time varies.(how much?) It would act as an impervious clock except to time itself (like the relativistic half-life extension of mesons). But because this local variation of the rate of passage of time would also affect in a proportional way the timing/detection equipment, a delay between the emission and the detection is introduced to avoid this coincidence. This is done by specifically using nuclides producing alpha or beta disintegration which particles time of flight produces the required time delay between emission & detection. This delay could be adjusted to the expected wavelength (tunable) by the distance source to detector. An actual local fluctuation in the rate of disintegration can be ascertained by coincidence detector and two sources. Now, are we better at measuring small time interval than small distances? Could we even have directionality with a proper configuration of sources and detectors?

Thanks,

Marcel,

[deleted]

Marcel,

A very precise form of a quantum clock is an atomic fountain. It might be possible to do exactly as you say here, where the atom in motion define a sort of interferometric-clock apparatus. Atomic clocks separated by a single story in a physics building will register the time change in the gravity field. So it should be possible to directly measure a time variation as a way of detecting a gravity wave.

Cheers LC

Christian Corda

Dear Steve Dufourny,

thanks for kind congratulations.

Let us keep in touch: maybe it will possible a future joined collaboration on cosmological spheres.

Cheers,

Ch.

Christian Corda

Dear Marcel,

thanks for your comment.

i will bring back to you after carefully reading it.

Cheers,

Ch.

Christian Corda

Dear Readers,

I am going to discuss the Research Issue in this Essay at the Symposium on gravitational waves that I have organized during the 7th International Conference of Numerical Analysis and Applied Mathematics, at Rethymno, Crete (near to Chania), Greece, 18-22 September 2009.

Regarding all informations on the Conference you can see

http://www.icnaam.org/index.htm

regarding the Symposium on gravitational waves you can see

http://www.icnaam.org/Sessions_Minisymposia.htm

Symposium number 19.

I will bring back to you next September 23, in particular, I will be pleasured in continuing the interesting discussion with Marcel and Lawrence concerning the possibility to detect gravitational waves by using disintegrating nuclide and atomic fountains.

Cheers,

Ch.

[deleted]

Hello ,

It's so difficult to find these gravitionals waves due to a lot of superimposings and our relativistic perception.

The stars with neutron ,found by Hewish in 1967 peritted to know the pulsars and their regular and speedly oscillations.The periodicity is variable between about 0.001 to 10 seconds .This periodicity increases logically due to ther rotations in time too

If the spherical waves are correlated with the evolution and some specifics parameters ,thus it's relevant .

The mgnetic fields ,sphericals,about 10^11 TO 10^13 Gauss .These stars with magnetised neutrons .

The rotations ,and the luminosity are correlated with the ages and the variablmes of velocities .

Some accelerations and a balance after can be correlated to find these spherical waves .It's difficult I think and the calculs must be incredibles .

The curvature of Space time is dependent of the mass and the gravity ,but if the increase of mass is fundamentals thus an increase of rotations too and energy ,thus that implies an obligation to insert thes factors and parametrs .

If I understand well ,the frequences of the binars are the keys and the electromagnetic waves are on these laws .

It's important to know the real toplogy too of our Universe ,thus we could insert a specific serie ,simulated with the evolution point of vue in the time constant and the curvature of the space by mass which is variables thus .Without this evidence ,the datas are most difficults I think .

The acceleration and the mass can be correlated in a specific architecture where the superimposings of the waves since the hypothetic Big Bang are too considered .

In the quantum ,it's the same ,the rotations are fundamentals and thus imply too a spherical gravitational wave due to these rotations spheres implying mass like an universal constant m v x where m is mass of the spheers ,v the velocity of rotation around itself and x .If we consider the max velocity for the main central sphere thus our universal sphere don't turn at this maximum mass ,but there we must insert too the evolution in time and the increase of mass .

It's important to know the specific dynamic of our Universe 13.7 years ago .If the Sphere evolves ,we can admit and suppose a placement and a complexification of mass towards centers .

If the mass increases ,the space curves itself more and more thus spherisizes itself by complexification where the quantum spheres act .

The gravitationals waves I think are interestings to see a kind of fusion ,but for that a specific underst

[deleted]

Error of posting,

It's relevant to see them if we know our topology and the dynamic where somes fusions are a fact .

Thus we could extrapolate their locality and thus see the variales of the signals during a specific period in our Universe ,probably too what the symetry ,spherical is relevant too for the locality of these fusions of binars systems .

The interferometry thus is very relevant ,difficult to calculate but very relevant iof our topology is an main necessity .

An important key is the frequences of rotations of spheres and its precisions to select the good datas where the superimposings are selected the best of in fact .If not we are going to have many problems .

Even the Dark Matter ,which is for me spheres without rotations thus mass ,must be inserted with pragamatism ,where thus too ,the evolution and the increase of mass ,which curves, is a reality .

In fact we must class all I think like an universal taxonomy of all spheres and their rotations ,the gravitationals spherical waves and their amplitudes .

If the space are spheres without rotations ???

Relevant I think about the universal contact of quantum and cosmological spheres .All is connected with a kind of activation of rotations of these quantum spheres which become mass .

For the gravitational waves ,it's interesting this universal contact between spheres ,the lattices permit the change and oscillate ....

Sincerely

Steve

Christian Corda

Dear Marcel and Lawrence,

concerning the interesting possibility to detect gravitational waves by using disintegrating nuclide and atomic fountains, I think that we need some formulas interacing with the proper time in the frame of a local observer where a gravitational waves propagates, i.e. the frame where we will measure the proper time with disintegrating nuclide and atomic fountains.

I invite you to see my paper in http://arxiv.org/abs/0706.2412

Do you think that equations 42, 43 and 46 could be used for the proposed goals?

Thanks.

Cheers,

Ch.

[deleted]

Dr Corda ,

Yes perhaps we could collaborate in the future ,I like the complemenatrity ,it's the key in fact .The time will tell us .Simply .

About the desintegrating nuclide ,it's interesting ,but of course we are going to have the same problems due to our limits of perception .

In the two senses ,quantum or cosmological ,it's very difficult .

The serie are evidently an evidence during some phases of the universal system (desintegration of isotopes or studies about binars)

I think it's relevant if we superimpose some systems but not one evidently .

And if we change a stable system ,thus it returns to its stability,there it's relevant indeed in the serie of changements towards this stability thus a possibility to find these spherical waves .

The gamma rays are relevant indeed and thus the others frequences in the two senses too ,far of our limits of perception in fact .

Regards ,and let's go dear friends ,with Lawrence ,Ray ,Florin ,Ettore ,Jason ,georgina and others interesting minds ,...the truths and truth come more quickly ....thus viva el complementarity.

A big challenge is this one ,the complemenatrity against this individualism .

Thus to be or not to be simply .

In all case I will read all your works ,Dr Corda,Lawrence ,Ray ,Florin ....

Sincerely

Steve

[deleted]

For an idea of what atomic fountains are you can look at:

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/clockworks.htm

This is used to eliminate the effect of Earth's gravity in the synchronization of clocks. We might think of just one atom being tossed in the air as being a bit like a particle on a Bohr-like orbit. Along the arc the wave length of the atom is adjusted in manner similar to the Pound-Rebka experiment with light. This is measured to give a real time adjustment of time change in Earth's gravity.

If the trajectory of the atom(s) is parabolic classically then it will have some integral number of wave lengths in it path. Then what is observed is the Fourier transform of the solutions to eqn 42&43. It is also possible that atomic interferometric systems might be set up as well, where the experiment would measure slight deviation in the interference between atomic or molecular beams due to gravity waves.

Cheers LC

[deleted]

Thanks Lawrence ,

It's relevant all that .

Could explain me the rule of the probe laser with a cesium fountain and the microwave cavity ?

Thus in fact it's about a synchronization for a time clock .

The fluorescence thus in the maximum ??

Sincerely

Steve

Lawrence Crowell

Steve,

The idea is that atoms thrown upwards by a laser force will exhibit changes in their electromagnetic spectra as their velocities change, due to Doppler shifting and the like. So you can measure a local gravity very precisely this way and account for local gravitational redshifting.

Cheers LC

Christian Corda

Dear Steve Dufourny,

the real motivation of difficulties in detecting gravity-waves is the very weak perturbation of space-time that they generate. This perturbation is of the order of 10^-21 in terms of amplitude of gravity-waves or 10^-18 meters in terms of test masses motion. In this way, we try to detect them by using interferometry.

Cheers,

Ch.

Christian Corda

Dear Lawrence,

I think that solving the Fourier transform of the solutions to eqn. 42&43 will be possible by using the Fourier translation and derivation theorems.

What do you think on the possibility of writing a joined paper?

Cheers,

Ch.

Marcel-Marie LeBel

Reply II to Corda

I do not really understand these equations 42, 43 & 46.

I think (?) that these equations use the measurement of time, which is the integration of the passage of time. In the universe time "passes". Time duration is what we measure by making the integration of the passage of time. That was the double edge sword of calculus. It allowed us to write down equations describing events as observed while removing the universal background of passing time. Time duration would not be possible by integration without the passage of time to start with.

This is why our concepts of physics we use to describe the universe are all one order over-integrated in time. We think "energy", but in the universe in action it is power that counts. Energy is a dimension of knowledge, not of the universe. Similarly, we think "time duration" but in the universe, time stops for nothing not even for our clocks. In the universe there is only the passage of time which in our language is "per second" or 1/T.

For example, one tera joules means nothing by itself. If it is released by a dripping faucet for eons .... You may have to change the sink eventually. If it is released in a pico second, it is in fact the whole neighborhood that must be redone. You see that energy in the universe in action (not on paper or in our minds) is about how quickly things happen or power! And this is true only because everything happen on this background of passing time. "Energy" is about knowing potentiality outside the actual time based context for its use (action).

On the other hand, nature makes things right. The "photon" is a wave made of the quantum of action h pre-packaged in a specific time for use, the period.

Question. What is the difference between the energy of a UV wave and a radio wave both containing the exact same quantum of action h? The delivery time or period of the wave; the effective power is the only difference. The UV wave delivers its quantum way faster than the radio wave. It does make a difference because time passes everywhere in the background. How quickly something happens does matters only because of the time background!

Back to gravitational waves:

If you want to understand the universe, or what is in the black box, you have to consider the first order time derivative of everything you know or think that you know in physics.

Marcel,

Christian Corda

Dear Marcel,

as we try to detect gravitational waves in a laboratory environment on heart, we have to use the coordinate system of a local observer. In this frame the physics results almost Newtonian and this approximation is excellent in case of gravitational waves because we are in the weak linearized theory of gravity.

Then, equation 46 represents the connection between Einstein's General Relativity and linearized theory which is expressed by the connection g00 = 1 2V between the first coefficient of the line element and the Newtonian potential, while equations 42, 43 represent the expression of Newtonian potential in terms of the amplitude of the gravitational waves in the frame of the local observer.

Cheers,

Ch.

[deleted]

Hello Dr Corda ,Lawrence ,all ,

Thanks both of you to detail a little ,it's likeable .

I wish you all the best to find these spherical waves .

I invite you to write the paper with a team like for exemple of course the two mavericks Lawrence and Ray ,Florin ,if you focus all on the same problem ,of course the results shall be correlated ,the complemenatrity will improve your papper ,and will optimize your datas ,evidently .

Good Luck in your extrapolations and experiments ,superimposings .

Sincerely

Steve

[deleted]

I would be willing to work together on some of these problems. It has been a while since we discussed things. As I recall we were talking about using atomic systems to detect gravity waves.

Back in 2007 I did some calculations on what happens to atomic spectra in a strong gravity wave environment. I attach a write up of notes on this. This may or may not be of some interest. The idea is this. Think of the electron in an atom as being a classical object in an orbit. I used Bohm's QM to work this part out. As a sideline I am not a hidden variable maven who thinks that Bohm's beables are something which will show locality underlying quantum mechanics. It is more that I think this approach to QM does have utility in some cases. A gravity wave will distort the orbit, so for a wave normal to the plane of this orbit the orbit is deformed into an oscillating ellipse. So I worked this out. I think most of this is reasonable, though it has been a while since I worked on it. I did not pursue the idea because as I ran numbers I found them to be disappointingly small. The energy level perturbations were one part in 10^{-7} or so. This would be alright for a quantum optics experiment, but I am thinking of astronomical detection of such level shifts of atoms very near violent astrophysical events such as the collision of neutron stars or black holes. Such small shifts would be transient and I think terribly difficult to detect. Yet that is the lesson of gravity waves, they are horribly difficult to detect. The problem of course is that the dimensions of an atom are very small compared to the wavelength of a gravity wave. There would also be lots of competing atomic transitions with photons taking place as well.

The equations 21-25 in my notes compute h_{ab} according to a source T_{ab}, where there are some obviously simplifiying assumptions made to get the final result. Also the statement h_{xx} = 10^6 probably should be 10^{-6}. The set up there could be used to derive numerical computations for the quadrupole source. I am not sure if this is of use in integrating your equations 42-43.

With the use of atomic fountains, or atomic systems in general, the small shift in fluorescence would be a measurement of a 1 - 2φ - c∫h_{++}(x, θ, ..)dx (c = const). As I think about it this might not be sufficient for determining the presence of a gravity wave. For one thing there would have to be several of these so that a time of wave propagation could be established. The other is that the interferometer method measures the shearing effect of the Weyl curvature, where this would only measure a deviation along a single direction. However, the idea of using atomic systems or even coherent quantum systems with photons might be reasonable. I read a paper a while back which involved a four way entanglement of photons. I will see if I can hunt that up. We might then think about a Rabi oscillation experiment that involves 4 entangled photons. These photons are entangled by a parametric down shifting (squeezed states) of the photons. Each of these photons might interact with some atomic system in their respective cavity, or interact as one with a single atomic system. From there the gravity wave would detune the frequencies involved with the quantum oscillations. I am not sure if this would be enough to have any measurable effect. The other problem of course is this might be an attempt to measure a very weak effect by using entanglements which are themselves tricky to maintain.

Another possibility, is to consider the motion of a particle, such as an electron or proton. It is ejected from a "gun" and travels on a parabolic arc according to elementary physics. Yet we know quantum mechanically the path from start to finish has some half-integer number of quantum wave lengths. The particle path will be slightly distorted by the interaction with a gravity wave, which will also change slightly the wavelength of the particle in order to traverse this path properly. This problem is similar in some ways to the atom problem above. So then the quantal condition for a standing wave, if we think of the particle as from then on bouncing between the start and stop points in some idealized setting, is perturbed. This argument might be used to then think about more realistic experimental set ups with "synthetic atoms," or quantum waves which travel along various paths.

Finally, another possibility is with Bose-Einstein condensates. As an assembly which constitutes a "large atom," as all atoms are in the same quantum state, physics similar to the sort just argued for could be employed.

The state of affairs with gravity waves is rather disappointing. They simply have to exist. If they don't then the universe makes no sense.

Cheers LCAttachment #1: ppwave.pdf

[deleted]

Hi ,

Just a suggestion ,

You can superimpose the different ideas and experiments ,the add of systems ,always increase and optimize the complementarity on a problems .

About theses gravitational waves ,I think what the problem is our youg technology ,thus for some people it's a lost of time to focus on these researchs ,furthermore it's expensive .

I think what the gravitational waves are like an axiom ,but of course our perception is limited.

Your ideas dear Lawrence are very creatives and interestings .

What do you think about the sound which is too an energy ?

Sincerely

Steve

[deleted]

Steve,

Gravitational waves should exist for a similar reason electrogmanetic waves exist. Suppose there is a charge with radial lines of electric field at a point in space. You then move that charge to another location. Those radial lines of force don't move with the motion of the charge instantaneously in space. The field lines respond by moving with the charge close in, and then similar to a wave on a string or chain they shift to the new radial configuration in a wave that moves outward, with the generation of a magnetic field as well. This is an electromagnetic wave.

A gravity wave in a weak limit is remarkably similar to this. There are some departures, such as gravity waves are not dipolar, but quadrupolar. The quick and easy way to see that is the dipole is a charge over some distance d = q(x - x') this can change with electromagnetic field. For gravity we have to replace the charge with a mass. A change in mass-dipole amounts to some displacement of a system without momentum transfer --- or a violation of momentum conservation in a sense. So gravity waves are not dipolar and are quadrupolar.

Cheers LC

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