Leshan wrote: "If reality is mathematical then please transform a formula into a material body. Or try to transform a body into a formula."

Formulae are *representations* of mathematical structures, not the structures themselves.

You also wrote: "The explanation of EXISTENCE means explanations of extension and duration: why a body exists in space and time?" and that "a hole in space-time is an example of the non-existence."

But spacetime is not nothing: why spacetime rather than nothing? To say nothing is a "hole" in spacetime as you do depends on there being some boundary. But why the bounding spacetime rather than nothing? Space and time belong to the family of existing things that we are trying to explain, you cannot presuppose their existence.

Dean

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Dean wrote:

'Formulae are 'representations' of mathematical structures, not the structures themselves'

What is the difference? Can you transform a mathematical structure into a material object? Please understand - really exists only physical (material) structures only. The Earth is a physical object, not mathematical. The mathematical model of Earth exists in heads (imagination) of mathematicians only. Can you show me the (material) mathematical abstraction that really exist?

'But spacetime is not nothing'

You are right. Space-time is a physical (real) object. To create NOTHING we must destroy (remove) space-time from the chamber. Since the space-time disappears, the walls of chamber must come into a proximity (because extension disappears). Also time dilation effect must appear because time disappears. This NOTHING exists a very short time only because it is filled quickly by environment. (Please read my essay for more information).

'To say nothing is a 'hole' in space-time as you do depends on there being some boundary'

Yes, a hole in space-time has a boundary, it is the wall of the chamber. You cannot create a hole without a boundary. But we speak about a hole inside of chamber, it is a true nothingness, it is an absolute void without extension and duration properties. The absolute void collapses quickly into a dimensionless point.

Let us explain the EXISTENCE now. The existence is the property of body to have EXTENSION and DURATION properties. Without extension and duration a body cannot exist.

Do you see the difference between existence and non-existence? All objects must have extension and duration properties in order to exist. The absolute vacuum is nothingness which does not possess the extension and duration properties. There is no EXISTENCE inside of a hole in space-time. Thus we defined non-existence. Then let's define existence.

Bodies exist really in space-time because they have extension and duration properties. Why they have extension and duration? The modern physics do not know the answer.

If you'll write another essay about existence then try to use extension and duration instead of mathematical reality.

Constantin

Dear Dean,

I have finally had the time to read carefully your essay in its entirety.

Let me start by saying that I do agree 100% with your conclusion, and my own essay shows how you unify math and physics. What I do disagree however, are your arguments for this conclusion.

The arguments are a bit convoluted in taking the pro and against positions and I need to sketch them to frame the arguments:

you present [MN] vs. [C] and present [S] as an argument for [MN] and against [C]. Then you present some weaknesses of [S] and this should weaken [MN]. Your ultimate position is completely against [MN] and you take this as proof of existence.

Finally you say:

"Either existence is contingent or it is necessary. If it is contingent

then there is no complete coherent account of existence. If it is necessary then we need a necessary structure to ground this fact. Mathematical tructures are of this kind. If reality is mathematical then it must exist. Reality is mathematical (as evidenced by the effectiveness of mathematics in the sciences). Therefore, there is existence."

So here are my comments regarding this discussion.

MN and S are all wrong to some degree.

Instead of MN, we should have MD (metaphysical democracy) where existence and non-existence can coexist peacefully. The world of math is not only timeless, it is also made of incompatible axiomatic systems coexisting side by side and if math and reality are unified, then existence and non-existence should be able to coexist as well in the same fashion. [S] is a rather naïve mechanicist argument at odds with quantum field theory. I do not know enough of [C] to comment on it.

Now your statement: "If it is contingent then there is no complete coherent account of existence." is reminiscent of Einstein's position in his debate with Bohr, and from this perspective, it is wrong especially after Aspect's experiments proved Born right and not Einstein.

"If it is necessary then we need a necessary structure to ground this fact." Yes

"Mathematical structures are of this kind." Yes.

"If reality is mathematical then it must exist." No, only that it can exist.

"Reality is mathematical (as evidenced by the effectiveness of mathematics in the sciences)." Yes (see also my essay on how to reality is unified with mathematics)

"Therefore, there is existence." No, because existence is contingent.

Your obvious counter argument will be that you are talking about existence in general, and not only our universe in particular. To that I say that existence is only defined in time; time is one of its core requirements. To argue about existence from a timeless point of view outside our universe is impossible because the very notion of existence is not defined there; it is like talking about notions of distance and neighborhood in formal logic. By Goedel, there is not comprehensive axiomatization of mathematics, and your discourse domain about existence in general is ill defined precisely because of that. Suppose for the sake of argument, that Goedel's incompleteness theorem is false, and there is such a thing as mathematical axiomatization. Then your analysis will be valid. This is a different argument that what you argue in your discussion of Goedel.

Dear Mr. Rickles,

I have read your essay. For me it is an absolutely exemplary case for why metaphysics found little applause among scientists. But that does not mean, that I believe such investigations to be meaningless. On the contrary: They are enormously important, because only they can heal the break between philosophy and physics.

In the past metaphysical propositions were not wrongly suspected of being meaningless, because often it was not clear what they actually meant.

I think the question why is there something rather than nothing belongs to this category. Usually something and nothing are regarded as opposites. But I doubt whether this is indeed the case.

If the word something is used the simple fact is evocated that there is a world which can be perceived by us. In other words: Something relates to the fact that there are visible things. Visibility here is not meant in a purely visual sense, but in a more general sense as something which can be perceived at all. This includes the usage of all kinds of technical tools, like a telescope.

If we look deeper we can find that distingushibality is the most elementary precondition of perception. A thing can only be seen if there is any difference towards other things. If there would be no difference, such a thing would be, in principle, invisible.

If we follow this way of reasoning then the opposite of SOMETHING would be something, which is by its very nature invisible and indistinguishable.

Or in brief:

Something .. Visibility .. Distinguishability

Something .. Invisibility (Non-Visibility) .. Indistingishability

This philosophical setting was never investigated in detail, because not only nothingness was an unclear physical concept invisibility was an physical unclear concept as well. But we can precise the concept of invisibility. We can give it a well-defined physical meaning. In my paper Taming of the One I have tried to explain invisibility as the natural result of a certain kind of radical non-dual conception of the Universe.

If this explanation would really hold, then Leibniz question appears as a classical case, which the philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein would have called as the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language.

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I thought your essay made for an interestin read. I see you are into a bit of a debate over the ontology of mathematics. It is my thinking that we will never be able to figure that out.

Cheers LC

The way you speak about existence expresses the assumption that things can have an absolute, objective kind of existence, a reality which exceeds the borders of the universe itself, as if there's some higher realm outside of it, an outside observer to whom these things exists, which is an essentially religious notion. As without some creator, the universe must have created itself out of nothing, meaning that everything inside of it, including spacetime itself, doesn't exist as 'seen' from the outside, but only to an inside observer who's part of it, objects only existing to each other as far as they interact, but having no reality outside of it.

"Cosmology and cosmogenesis were, until relatively recently, thought to be outside the 'proper' domain of science, to be relegated instead to the armchair speculations of metaphysicians and theologians."

I'm afraid that cosmogenesis still belongs as much to the domain of metaphysics as it did in pre-Copernican times, never mind the impressive arsenal of instruments we have at our disposal today, the theories the ingeniousness of which seem to pass for proof, nor the huge amount of data which, if I'm right, can support a much simpler and consistent scenario of a self-creating universe which cannot but produce a homogenous, isotropic universe and answers questions Big Bang hypothesis doesn't even try to like the mechanics and why of its creation.

As some other essays of the contest touch similar matters, I have posted my arguments among the discussion posts at my essay 'Mechanics of a Self-Creating Universe' -see my post of 25 september.

4 days later
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Interesting essay going for existence (the something coming out of nothing).

Existence will always presuppose nonexistence.

existence/nonexistence/existence/nonexistence/existence/nonexistence/ etc.

When this chain is looked at with a poor resolution we get real objects and classical physics.

When we look at this chain with subtle tools and good resolution we get fuzzy objects and quantum mechanics.

And of course there is always that pesky observer. I am not sure if he/she is doing mathematics or physics?

Though I agree that 'physics and mathematics have a common basis', there is a fundamental difference. If in a self-creating universe the sum of everything inside, including spacetime itself somehow must stay zero (conservation law), then the physicist cannot treat physical quantities and phenomena like a mathematician does his numbers and symbols. Where his numbers and symbols exist only in the mind of the mathematician, the physicist is part of the sum he studies, so he is not allowed, for example, to imagine how the universe looks from the outside as any physical observation requires a at least a specification of his position with respect to what he observes, his distance and the conditions at the place he looks from, which by definition is impossible outside the universe. If he nevertheless imagines to see galaxies of about the same age (since he believes their particles to be created at the same time) receding from each other faster than light, then this is only possible by seeing their spacedistance, but ignoring their corresponding timedistance: by thinking like a mathematician.

'... The mathematical universe is safe from Godel's theorem ...'

I'm afraid this is not the case. If to explain some phenomenon or prove some theorem we start our reasoning from assumptions and axioms which contain preconceptions, if the truth of our allegations depends on the truth of unprovable assumptions and axioms, then we can never prove them in an absolute sense, however valid they may be within the set of axioms and rules of reasoning they are formulated. The problem is that though our assumptions and axioms may seem self-evident, they aren't necessarily true as they only reflect our view of our world and express a logic which may differ from nature's logic. Richard Powers (in The Gold Bug Variations) 'Why is the last line of a proof surprising, if its truth is already hiding tautologically in the lines above?' suggests as much: that we put as much information in our choice and formulation of axioms and rules of reasoning as we can get out of them. If the proof of a theorem to some extent also involves the proof of the implicit assumptions which are built into our axioms and rules of reasoning, then the formulation of a theorem can be thought of as an effort to formulate this implicit information explicitly, its proof being incorporated in the theorem as it is formulated. If in that case we don't so much prove something but rather adapt our thinking to the way our observation evolves, then the impossibility to (dis)prove statements which can be made within a consistent set of rules and axioms (Gödel) might originate in the incompleteness or indefiniteness of our definitions and axioms, in the lack of information or restrictions we've put into our rules, axioms and assumptions, so statements can inherently be too ambiguous to prove or disprove. The problem is that much of the information we put in them appears too obvious for us to consider as being information, as if it reflects a truth that needs no inspection: as it is almost impossible to be aware of this implicit information, we indeed are surprised at the last line of the proof, as if we got some information for free that we didn't put in ourselves in the first place. As our reasoning and the tools we think with are rather the product, the expression of our relation to our world than something which is open to inspection (by itself), it is difficult to detect the implicit information present in our assumptions, in the preconceptions they may contain. This might mean that if we could explicitely formulate all implicit information in a set of axioms and rules so there would be no ambiguity, nor in the theorems we can formulate within that set, Gödel's theorem would no longer apply, any statement or theorem being a tautology. If we have more confidence in a theory as it is more consistent and it is more consistent as it relates more phenomena, makes more facts explain each other and needs less additional axioms, less more or less arbitrary assumptions, then any good theory has a tautological character though a tautological theory of course isn't necessarily true nor useful.

In an uncaused, causeless universe which creates itself (see Mechanics of a Self-Creating Universe), where things and events create each other, they explain each other in a circular way, are each other's 'cause'. Though a circular reasoning at first sight may seem ridiculous, here we can take any statement, any link of the chain of reasoning without proof, use it to explain the next link and so on, to follow the circle back to the statement we started with, which this time is explained, proved by the foregoing reasoning. Though in a self-creating, noncausal universe a proof seems to be less convincing than a proof which follows a causal reasoning, a causal assertion or explanation ultimately is invalidated as the primordeal cause it is built upon by definition cannot be understood nor proved. The point is that if our logic originates in nature's logic and not the other way around, that our logic is but a reflection of our relation to our world and not a reflection of some absolute, platonic kind of truth which precedes, exists outside that world, an objective reality as there's no such thing, mathematics and its development follow physics, and not the other way around, so we cannot blindly rely on its conclusions that explain the why and how of our universe, its laws. Though dreaming up mathematics without bothering too much about the nature of the quantities its equations refer to sometimes can help decide whether ideas in physics make sense, mathematics itself cannot dream up really new physical approaches or ideas. An excessive emphasis on mathematics tends to create its own reality and confuse our view on physical issues. Though many models in physics may mathematically be consistent, I'm still waiting for the one model which obviously, compellingly and necessarily excludes any other model and explains why the universe needs the particular particles we find, why the ratio between their masses is as it is etcetera.

Dear Dean Rickles,

As per my perception, I support 'Nothing is always Something' and thereby 'Existence' is true. The problem in unification of mathematics and physics to explain physical reality is due to the mathematical formulation of 'zero' that is not true.

With best wishes,

jayakar

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Dr. Rickles,

In response to an earlier message posted by Dr. Casey Blood you responded:

Quoting Dr. Blood:

"(1) I agree that mathematical systems "exist." But I should think that the only ones of interest would be those which can lead to some kind of awareness. That is, I think the question of existence is somewhat tied up with awareness.

(2) It seems one could imagine existences--with aware beings--which are not based on mathematics. Are you saying that any kind of non-chaos, any kind of awareness, any ability to distinguish "this" from "that" implies mathematics?"

Quoting you:

I don't agree with your (1) here, though I appreciate the Wheelerish sentiment in it, but I think to make better sense of your idea I'd need to know what you meant by 'awareness' and 'existence'. On (2): I challenge you to imagine a world in which, say, the law of non-contradiction did not hold. Also, I didn't mention non-chaos, awareness, or identity and indiscrenibility issues. The point was that no matter what kind of situation you envisage (chaotic, non-chaotic, aware, non-aware, etc.) you will find that the same mathematical truths hold in all. So if you agree that these mathematical truths exist, and you agree that they are necessary, then you have to also hold that there is no conceivable situation in which they do not exist. That is enough to get the conclusion I need.

My question:

You are aware that mathematics exists. You are aware that theoretical physics relies upon it for its definitions of the nature of the universe. You are aware that you have thought extensively about the nature of existence. You are aware that you have reached a conclusion. If your view of a mathematical universe explains your awareness for you, would you please say something about how - a sophisticated collection of shortcuts to arrive at sums without having to do all of the counting otherwise necessary - accounts for your awareness of counting? Did counting preceed intelligence? Is counting the cause of intelligence? How is the act of counting (not the sum result) viewed as timeless?

James

Dean

You write (3rd paragraph) as the keynote of your essay

" Why is there anything at all? This is really the ultimate question: why is there something when, presumably, there might not have been?

Who or what is doing the "presuming" of nothing ? ? Presumably another different (?) nothing (a God ?) .

"and so ad infinitum .." Dean Swift

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Dear Dean,

your boldness approach i like, but that boldness need some basis. May eb the way Physics has proceeded thus far need a change in methodology, i agree. Widening the base by having close links not only with logic/Maths. but also with life sciences apppears to me to be essential. I have mentioneed it at the end of my own essay on this forum. The erason lies in 'consciousness' / awareness. nless the level is high we go on doing routine studies. Now, consciousness is a term that has been sicentifically associated with the brain , a sa process of thinking. i do not like this limitation. Consciousness involves the entire body as well as its interaction with its cosmic counterpart. That is what happened even to Einstein when he privately admitted that he had the problems in his mnd in the early 1900 and all the solutions he could think about failed in implementation to provide the solution. Then, all of a sudden, out of the blue, he got the ideas that were not a part of his thought processes. He could discern their significance and immediately applied the tools he had by way of mathematics, that worked out the solutions!

This analysis is very important to understand. Only an open and highly discerning mind can achieve such success, no methodology can provide a solution. The importance lies in strenghtening the human mind. It has a lot of contents full of random thoughts. One needs the silent moments to have larger duration through disciplining the mind and then the individual consciousness through interaction with the cosmic consciousness , may result in a miracle!

Both maths and experiments are mere tools in Physics. Unless one conceives the right idea, things only may proceed routinely.

yes, programming through Computers today helps but only in solving the complexities of calculations that need to be done, as per the conceptual ideas, their mathematical format and the expyal data available already.

8 days later
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"At the root of my explanation of existence is the notion that it is not possible for there to be nothing: existence is necessary."

I agree that "nothing" cannot "be," since "being" entails existence and "nothing" entails nonexistence, i.e., not existence (as I infer from your arguments, anyway). Thus, to say "nothing" has "being" is to say "nonexistence exists," or "not existence and existence" which violates the principle of non-contradiction. Thus, as long as reality conforms to logic, "it is not possible for there to be nothing" is tautologically a true statement. Of course, one could argue that we've introduced a "contingency that enters in to an explanation," i.e., that reality conforms to logic, which then "will leave open a logical gap that renders the explanation incomplete." But, this is a fun essay and I would have to say you're tackling the most ultimate of possibilities!

This essay deserves to win "something rather than nothing" :-)

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Dear Dean,

I very much liked your essay's statement, "More explicitly: the only way one can explain existence...is to demonstrate that non-existence is a logical impossibility."

I am an engineer not a philosopher. Has philosophy argued the word nothing is an oxymora? If so why? If not why not? I argue in my essay the concept is not scientific and should be suspect in physics, but it would help if logicians have too.

Sincerely,

George Schoenfelder

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it amazed me to see that your introduction has the same title as my essay on this forum. i also appreciate your philosophical approach to physics and great support for it through pure Mathematics which is not limited by space/ time as concepts.

However, i am unable to see how some physical concepts to build the mathematics for physics does not provide the right methodology to conduct physics.

Physics is tied to the understanding of our physical universe. How can it get tied to pure mathematics except through the relevance of such mathematics to the concepts developed that have achieved success already. One can however chose an alternate set of concepts to represent the realities of the physical universe and then devlop theories with the help of Mathematics relevant to the same.

Existence is tied to awareness and that in turn gets tied to consciousness. The latter has evolved the entire existence through its intelligent logic.There is an essay in this forum by Klingman that explains physical phenomenon purely on the basis of gravity and consciousness, the latter also tied to the material mass in rotatory motion around the mass configuration.

May be the author prefer to comment on such aspects.

12 days later
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For me, a perhaps subtle take-home-message of this essay contest is that non-classical logic such as modal logic and fundamental mathematical structures such as sets, ordinals and natural numbers emerge as the ultimate source and possibility of physics.

In my opinion, your essay contributes nicely to this outcome.

8 days later
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Dear Dean,

While common sense tells us that even the best model or immaterial copy of something real is less comprehensive that the real object itself. Physics of believers like Einstein ignores this at least by equating real time with our abstract time. I do not expect you sharing my belonging conclusions. Are you at lest ready for taking issue with respect to my first sentence?

Regards,

Eckard

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