What Physics Can and Can\'t Do? by Narendra Nath

Dear Narendra,

Thank you for your remarks. You may well be right in your intuitions.

Thanks also to Steve, for the encouragement.

The questions you raise above are difficult and profound. I would consider mysef a conservative physicist and hope that one day we will have a mathematically well-developed model of the Universe, based on physics that is tested in the laboratory. Only then can we hope to understand issues such as the nature of dark matter and dark energy, and whether fundamental `constants' evolve in time.

Tejinder

all the best for your excellent efforts.

Dear Narendra,

I actually agree with you that math is not the starting point in physics. I am only comparing math with reality for 2 reasons. First, Weinberg spoke of the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in the natural sciences. I wanted to know why (and if something could be derived from it). Second, in math (especially after Bourbaki) the meaning of mathematical structures is only relational. Why is existence possible then? What are its building blocks? If reality is not relational as well, then one has to appeal to transcendental and God arguments.

In short, I am not after a TOE, but after finding out why certain mathematical structures are distinguished and occur in the real world, and not others. Why for example is the number of space dimensions 3 and not a huge number like say 10^23? Why is quantum mechanics described by complex numbers, and not p-adic numbers, or sedinions?

It turns out that to be able to answer those types of questions the starting point is still experiments and not math. It is reality that ultimately selects the relevant distinguished mathematical structures.

Narendra Nath:

I, as Steve has mentioned some where above, think your essay is quite pragmatical and also very clear.

I agree physics should be closer to life-sciences, but also think should be closer to social sciences.

We should learn to deal better with fuzzy and indetermined outcomes.

On consiousness and science, my essay --which you have read-- says that the ultimate result is contemplation. To be aware of the universe, ourselves and aware of our awareness.

Back to your essay, it is great.

Best...

i am truly overwhelmed with the nice fraternity of comments made by Juan, Steve, Florin above. i also greatly admire that there are like minded persons who have the genuine feeling of fraternity amongst us. The more such spiritual strength rises the better it will be for the sciences and the humanity. i have personally reached a rather ripe age of 77 and am happy to find younger friends in our fratenity. That is a sign of good continuity in common interest campaigns across the world.

The global warming has shown up in several tragedies around the globe. For the past 2/3 days such a tragedy is occuring by way of widespread floods in southern states of India. Earlier it has happened in USA, Europe and China, covering sort of entire world. Tsunami's too are there and the weather in September/October this year is more like July/August in many parts of the northern globe. Politiciancs the world over work on short term objectives but they are the rulers and desire to decide the long term issues involving human calamity, ignoring the well-meaning scientists. we need to join meaningfully for the sake of younger generations that are to follow! Physics can survive well if the world becomes a better place to live our lives, spent with feelings of universal love and compassion.

Florin,

Your post of 3rd has satisfied me with your motivation to use appropriate Maths to do relevant Physics. That is the right spirit for maths. in Physics.Physics should not be in Maths! That is the spirit of my comment. All success to you in your efforts.

Steve,

All success to organise Intnl. Humanity & Science centre. i think you are located in LA, Calif. i am too far away to be a part of it but my spirit is in tune with you. All success. My worry about the start of all good institutions lies not in their objectives but in the reflection of the personalities that govern them. Somehow we have to learn to de-personalize such institutions . Only hten their long-term continuity can be ensured. Otherwise these are likely to suffer from personality clashes.

Juan,

i am with you that we need to do something in sciences about fuzziness/indeterminacy. But the way is not easy , as Quantum mechanics has been widely accepted. What is required is an entirely novel approach that is not biased by the entire science knowedge that we have gathered thus far! May be a solution lies in the approach suggested by Tejinder Singh in his essay where he has given significance to an intermediate area of mesamorphic nature that is inbetween classical and quantum physics domain. Once one gets there both theoretically and experimentally, the unification of physics will come through the bridging of classical and quantum aspects.

Dear Narenda,

I have replied to your comment on my essay and would like to address similar questions in your essay.

You remark that "Struggle seems to lie between individual consciousness vis-a-vis cosmic consciousness." The consciousness field approach does not distinguish between the two, but all "individual" consciousnesses are local maxima that are enhanced by local motion as described in my essay--- motion of vesicles, etc in the cell, blood in the arteries, and ions in the axons of the brain and the vesicle flow across synapses..

You also state "It may well be that some kind of gravitational-like interaction field that still needs to be identified." This too is the C-field with its inflationary property as I have described.

You discuss the strong force of the nucleus. In 1929 Rutherford proposed a magnetic-like force but the experimental tools were insufficient. Only 5 years later Yukawa proposed an 'electric-like' force and the (misinterpretation of) the muon was sufficient to lock this in for 70 years. But in 2008 Frank Wilczek admitted that the Yukawa model fails at hardcore distances. The (magnetic-like) C-field flux tube performs the physics required of the strong force (sans color- never seen and never to be seen). The weak field is discussed in my reply to you.

Your remarks about quantum gravity and unification of forces are also discussed, but I would point out here that the quantum flow condition I derive is based on the gravity-field.

Finally, you mention in your essay that "Individual biological cell is capable of acting independently as well as in a live body." I say almost exactly the same in my essay and explain that the consciousness field provides a reasonable explanation of this--see the above remark about motion in cells, arteries, and neural axons. In my essay it is shown that the 'mass-current' sources the C-field analogous to the way that 'charge-current' sources the magnetic B-field.

I enjoyed reading your essay the second time and invite you to read my essay again after you digest my response.

I also concur with you and others that this community of individuals is a joy to participate in.

Dear Edwin,

your response is most welcome. It has enriched me further about the faith in the concept of ' consciousness '. Every word in the dictionary is open to wide interpretations and these also change with time, like any other in this universe where change rules the roost. Whatever i may have said may not be as per my understandings, as misunderstandings arise by what one means and what the other person conceives about it. I have my own pedigree ( lineage ) and you have yours. We are not self-made as we think we are!

Cosmic consciousness is the entirety of consciousness ( GOD ) while individual consciousness is its 'differentiated' form with each individual. All these are having their distict features like other bodily features of the individual. Thus, we have diffent levels / degrees of consciousness visavis the cosmic consciousness.

i will reread your essay text. May be we leave ourselves to grow in our own natural pattern, as that is natural ti us. Following or getting dictated by any other person will not be right unless oneself feels convinced.Let us enjoy the community of FQXI forum, a wonderful way of connecting the world through Internet, so may it prosper constantly / acceleratedly for the good of human society, not merely the scientific community. isolation of anykind leads to degeneration/decay.

Hi dear Narendra Nath ,

Thanks it's nice ,I had answered but some ones of my posts disappear .

I live in Belgium ,I am belgian .

You are welcome when this center will be created .The place isn't important ,just the team and the desire to help simply .

Regards

Steve

it seems my second post of the day has disappeared from the site. Soemtimes it is difficult to recollect what has come spontaneously on reading the text of the essay or the postings made preceedingly.

Edwin, i think i have some suggestion about making C vector that you say arises out of rotational nature of mass under gravity, on more solid ground. The human mind is involved in all conceptual ideas and therein lies the human consciousness too. Now, i treat brain as a processing and memory centre only while the rest of the body cells , billions in number, are all sensors as well as activators to send signals and receive signals from out side. All such interactions, as per the ideas of Dr. Eccles, Nobel Leureate Professor at Oxford ( UK) in Neurology, do get recorded in a non-physical sheath surrounding the SMA area of the brain. He conjuctures further that this sheath does not die with the body abd thus such record remain accessible permanently to other individuals' consciousness. Thus, one can understand that total knowledge store is already available in the universe and we just need to tap it knowingly or even unknowingly.

As Einstein admitted frankly enough that the famous ideas for his 1905 discoveries did not originate in his brain but appeared suddenly to him. However, he had the knack to retain the ideas and also had the tools ready with him to implement the same. Such a scenario gives tremendous boost to the assocaition of consciousness with science one does. In my essay and a additional post through a mss attachment ' Relevance of Consciousness in Sciences' i have described my own personal experiences.

Dear Narendra

You state: "Now, i treat brain as a processing and memory centre only while the rest of the body cells , billions in number, are all sensors as well as activators to send signals and receive signals from out side"

I agree that the brain is processing and memory. This is the meaning of defining

intelligence = consciousness plus logic.

Consciousness is awareness and volition, or free will, and has a field nature, while logic is structural, based on material. Material structures store info, combine info, and project info, thereby creating memories and ideas/thoughts of the future. The conscious field and the material structures interact as described in my essay.

Cells are alive and, to some degree conscious. Although I do understand the mechanics of the immune system, I also believe it likely that the consciousness field plays a role in distinguishing 'self' from 'non-self'. Consciousness at the molecular level was probably the added push that, over millions of years, provided the anti-entropic basis for the cell to 'live'.

At the cellular level, consciousness probably provides the glue that is the basis of the organism. Of course all of the molecular biology of the cell (described by Alberts et al) is necessary for the physical functioning of cells, but the evolution of such complexity, without a conscious force at work, has never been explained, and the more one understands the cell, the less likely its independent evolution appears.

Note that I am not ascribing 'ideas' at the cellular level, but the protein/DNA structure clearly implements 'logic' capable of 'deciding' whether protein A AND protein B are present or whether only protein A OR protein B is present, and 'acting' accordingly to generate protein C or not.

Just as our macroscopic ideas sometimes lead us astray in the interpretation of quantum mechanics, the application of human-centric ideas to cells will be 'fraught with peril', but, nevertheless, the existence of the consciousness field is clearly of immense importance.

I would also like to point out that Darwinian evolution has nothing to say on this. That is, if an intelligent life-form exists today, Darwin is completely unable to say whether the consciousness evolved by random means or by the application of low level conscious forces. Just as Darwin predicts nothing (except retroactively) it also explains nothing about the source of life. Evolution of lifeforms in the jungle would be the same regardless of whether the source of consciousness is random action, a consciousness field, or God.

Your question about what consciousness survives death is of course very important, but I am not yet ready to venture into this realm, as there are so many physical implications of the C-field still to be worked out. As I note in my essay, the C-field is quite useful for understanding particle physics. The equations are compatible with Yang-Mills gauge theory and, at the level of particle physics, all "conscious aspects" of the C-field can be completely ignored; the theory is, for all purposes, strictly physical. This aspect is treated in "The Chromodynamics War".

At the cosmological level there appears to be some grounds for considering the aspect of consciousness, since the Pioneer orbits and the CMB "axis of evil" do seem somewhat earth-centric. The physical behaviors associated with "flat rotation curves" and "jets" are 100 percent compatible with the C-field, but the relative magnitudes do seem to vary with some dependence on relation to earth. These issues are treated in "Gene Man's World".

At the biological level, while I am sure that the C-field is significant, the complexity makes it difficult to analyze the system. All I have been able to do is calculate that the C-field energy at the molecular level is of the order of 20 nano-eV. In 1958 Stan Ulam conjectured that "a minimum series of energy expenditures would transfer a body in a multi-body potential from one point to another efficiently." This of course was the basis of NASA's "Grand Tour" and has been recently extended to the quantum realm. Such forces at the cellular level, operating over time, could certainly shape the process of evolution, regardless of any concept of 'goal'. For all we know the goal could have been as simple as "feels good", or of simply achieving a greater local density in the consciousness field that endured for a longer time.

I will read your 'Relevance of Consciousness in Sciences'. Thanks for the reference.

Edwin E Klingman

Dear Edwin,

yuor long post is appreciated. However as i read it i tend to forget what you have written before. It is my limitation. Can you elaborate on how you got the figure of 20 nano-volt for the C-field at the molecular level? Does it remain uniformly so? Does it vary with time bothways? May be you have smething unique in your treatment. However, it may help you to interact with the molecular biologists as well as neurologist friendly to you, to help you proceed further. For me i notice some links broken in you treatment which starts conceptually but soon takes a pure mathematical approach without continuous linkages with the conceptual picture. may be i am vague but that is my inner feelings. These may well be based on misunderstandings of your text at places.

Dear Narendra Nath,

I d like give you my mail ,dufournybionature@gmail.com,if you want of course we could discuss about the creation of the center ,you know ,the only thing important for me is this center ,if the base is created ,the synergies shall go very quickly .Our fellow men wait ,Darfour ,Sieera Leone ,Madagascar ,RDC ,Bengladesh ,and many others lost in this sad and non balanced system .The solutions exist ,it's a reality ,they exist .

In all case ,the united is the key ,with the universality and the adapted and harmonious sciences .We must product and implant some basic systems .It's possible .The responsability of scientists is so so so important .

Dear Mr Klingman ,you are welcome of course ,we are in the same optic about the universal conscious ,our conscious says us ,lat's act .Simply with our heart .

Best Regards

Steve

Narendra,

You ask: "Can you elaborate on how you got the figure of 20 nano-volt for the C-field at the molecular level? Does it remain uniformly so? Does it vary with time bothways?"

The computation is based on the equation that describes the C-field circulation in terms of mass current (since the change in gravity over a biological cell is nil). One of the terms is proportional to the local mass density which I assume to be the density of water. The computation is carried out in "Gene Man's World". Because the local C-field varies with local mass currents it should not remain uniform, but I'm not sure that meaningful calculations are possible. My primary interest in the calculation was to confirm that C-field energies are not such as to have any noticeable effect on chemistry, since this would argue against the C-field, but also that the energy is non-zero, since this would argue that the consciousness field had no effect at all. I believe that the approximate result, 20 nano-eV, satisfies both of these criteria.

You further state: "For me i notice some links broken in you treatment which starts conceptually but soon takes a pure mathematical approach without continuous linkages with the conceptual picture. may be i am vague but that is my inner feelings. These may well be based on misunderstandings of your text at places."

You are correct that I begin with conceptual arguments and segue into mathematical results, as I believe both are necessary to a successful theory. The ten page limitation on the essay forces a compromise where both concept and calculation suffer equally. The books listed in my essay develop both concept and calculations in extreme detail.

Thanks for your feedback, and thanks to Steve for his comments on both of our essays.

Edwin Klingman

Just realised that i completely missed the early comments from Uncle Al.i feel your comments were full of 'humanity' and relaterd matters. I agree with what you say broadly. Personality emphasis has been the fashion in our community. It does degrade science sometimes or may be more at some other times. This and related problems are tied the egos of the individuals and their close associates/friends. We are unable to delink our personal desires from the persuit of science as a pure search for best truth. However, this aspect can not be eliminated but does require limited significance. Such is really the job for professional societies of scientists and these organisations operate. i had some bad experiences of an association founded in India by a good medical scientist who is no more. It is called ' Society forn Scientific Values. It was mainly concerned with the ethical issues like pliagerisation, duplication/copying, dishonesty in associating names of persons on scientific publications where their contribution was worth no more than an acknowledgement, etc. etc. The office bearers responsible for upholding ethical values start practicing unehtical/ dictatorial attitudes. Human failings then lead to degradation of science. Such things do happen all over the world. Uncle Al may hopefully come on the scene and decoare his respectable identity, i shall welcome personally!

Dear edwin,

i am truly amased by your mathematical conceptaulisation of consciousness. Why you treat as ameer rotation of mass distribution to distinguish it from Grabity that represents the mass distributed property directly? i like it but i need what led you to propose such a conceptual aspect and then proceed further along. You also expect to propose some experimental checks. Kindly do come out with a couple of these too.Although i have no lab available to me anymore, i shall do my best to associate and seek others help in seeing that such experiments are actually implemented in practice.

Daer Steve,

Please do go ahead with the Association you plan to organis ealong with your well meaning friends. i promise i shall do whatever i possible can sitting far away here in India. my location is at Kurukshetra, a district town in the state of haryana. New Delhi, the capital city is just 160 km away and fast trains cover the distance in 2 hours!

I am honored dear Narendra Nath ,I am verry happy .

I must organize correctly all that .

I am a bad administrator but I will arrive .

My friends are everywhere ,some in Africa ,some in Europe ,....and they are supers ,real universalists .

Like I said ,the place isn't important ,several linked spheres can be implanted with a geostrategy for the distribution.But the base must be very strong ,the good governance thus always .In Africa the problem is the corruption ,thus the institutions are bizares .It' better to have a base ,sure and strong .

For the balance between humanitary and economy ,we must produce of course ,I am multiplicator of plants too and ecologist ,thus the bio products can be made like essential oils ,flowers,vegetables ,milk,honney .....and many others inventions .All is linked with our soils in fact .

Take care dear Mr Narendra Nath .

Steve

Many thanks, steve. i am all for universalness in our humanity on this earth. political division between countires and talk of different cultures have divided humanity in parts, to be ruled by ' divide and rule ' policy the biggest foreign power The Great britain , followed to rule many countries in Asia and Africa. Today Britain does not follow that policy bit its derivatives do exist through what economically powerful countries are doing towards the less fortunate and poor ones. Compassion has been the central theme of all the relifions of the world that exist. But this very quality is missing in action.

Hello Dear Narendra Nath ,

You are welcome .The compassion and the love and adapted universal sciences can really change this world .

Indeed our story has divided the pure essence of our Earth .And if we had given instead of exchaning......We add bad habits .....A majority wants the peace and the prosperity .Only a minority sacks the ecosystem .

If I must resume the bad on Erath it's by these words ....vanity ,power ,weapons and giuns ,monney and boundaries ..... We can harmonize in implanting a prosperity and a stabilized system ,harmonious and universalness .There the united ,and unified systems are essential to accelerate the process of resolution of prioritaries problems .Health ,agriculture ,education ,energy ,water ...mainly .My friend who is an super person ,Dr Naima Benali ,works hard too on the transqure project .Africa Unite too ,and others systems ......several spheres can be optimised and can be put into practice .We shall arrive ,we shall overcome .....we must act and the mots quickly will be the best in fact ,because each seconds which pass is a child who cries or dead.We can't sleep quietly if only one child still cries ....

Freindly

Steve