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  • Post #21

Dear Narendra,

Apologies for this delayed response. I try to respond to some of your points.

It is really very difficult for me to say what gravity `actually is'. At best, after unification with other forces has been fully understood, one should think of gravity as a relic of a noncommutative geometry - that was the picture in my essay, and the one I believe in.

With regard to the mesoscopic region, what are usually known as nanoparticles are still too small to show any significant departures from linear quantum mechanics. One needs bigger mesoscopic objects, having about 10^{15} atoms say, to test for the new effect. And these objects must be isolated from the environment [suppession of decoherence] - this perhaps is the hardest part.

Tejinder

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  • Post #22

Tejinder,

i mean nanostructured materials and not a single structure entity. These days some such materials/compounds are available for study, amy be in amorphous or eben crystalline forms, to satisy the mass limit specified by you. Carbon nanotubes are known. may be Gold nanostructured materials may also be available.i do hope the experimentalist in TIFR may feel interested too.

i am very happy to see your good eswsay getting the recognition from the FQXI community.

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  • Post #23

Thanks Narendra, for your kind remarks and good wishes, and for your interest in this work, and probing questions.

I understand now what you are saying - something I mssed in my previous comment. Undoubtedly, this kind of material will in principlebe very useful. But you see there is still a technological handicap,and that is the phenomenon of decoherence.

A mesoscopic object lke this comes into contact with the environment, and the two

together start behaving like a macroscopic object, which is something we do not want. We want to isolate this object, and this is well appreciated by experimentalists, especially those who are looking for a possible breakdown of superposition in mesoscopic systems. My understanding is that experimentalists are

making progress at create decoherence free set-ups, but they are not there yet.

Do let me know what you think ... Tejinder

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  • Post #24

Tajinder, you may well be right about what expeimentalists are doing to avoid environmental problems affectin g such samples during actual study. Today we have excellent vacuum created in the lab and the process of creating such nanostructured material xtals can also be undertaken in a twin vacuum chamber, one for preparation and the other for study. i am unable to say much more, except to indicate that a recent study from Israel has reported the detection of cancer using highly sensitive nanostructured gold sensors, by merely sensing the breath coming out of one's mouth. i have written to the Israli scientists to provide the details about the nanostructured gold sensers that they have used in their study. May be that can help your study go further the experimental route. Best of luck and have faith.

Tajinder

A good essay with many strong points. Some very minor comments:

1. Have you considered the other possibility that the transition is sharp, not gradual. In other words the mesoscopic domain, like the Now of Time, has a null extent. Do you have any grounds for rejecting that alternative ?

2. At the top of page 4 you write "that the (CORRECTLY inferred) feature of non-linearity". It is a bit "cheeky" to describe your own inferences as "correct". It may be RATIONAL in your conceptual framework; but until you have empirical validation of your hypothesis (remember Newton's caution !) it is unREASONABLE to presume it is correct. My essay expands on the dangers of assuming that just because something is rational it is necessarily correct.

3. You derive the inferred non-linearity in your new QM from "self gravity". At some stage you will need to do some calculations (to see if they match experiments). Here is what I guess will happen. You will need perturbative computations. You will get infinities. You will need to invent the concept of "Bare gravity" and find a method of re-normalising your calculations. It is now standard doctrine (at least in HEP) that effective theories must be re-normalisable. Re-normalisation is a technique for getting from a non-linear formalism results matching the linear universe we experience - but don't really understand yet.

Dear Terry,

Thanks for your kind remarks, and also for your comments, which I found very interesting. I try to respond below :

1. The self-gravity of an object grows monotonically, and in a continuous fashion, with its mass, and its importance is determined by the ratio of this mass to Planck mass. Therefore I do not expect the mesoscopic region to be of null extent. To the extent that the mass of the object is not mch larger than nor much smaller than Planck mass, the mesoscopic region will be significant. For me a useful analogy is the transition from Newtonian mechanics to special relativity, which as we know is a continuous function of the ratio of the velocity of the object to the speed of light.

2. I fully agree with what you say here. The `correctly inferred' is only stated in the context of my reasoning, and must be confirmed/ruled out by experiment.

3. In my work that I refer to in the essay, the effect of nonlinearity on quantum measurement is actually calculated. More exact calculations, which will allow comparison with experiment, are in progress.

Thank you for your interest,

Tejinder

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  • Post #27

tejinder,

i have posted some coments on the essay of Ellis from Soth Africa. There i quote your approach in my context of the argument presented there . May be you also may find the same interesting from your own point of view.

Dear Naendra,

I agree with Goerge Ellis that quantum mechanics as it stands cannot explain the observed absence of macroscopic superpositions without invoking the many worlds interpretation. If many worlds does not hold, then the explanation for the unobserved superpositions has to come from elsewhere.

I would say that from this point on Ellis and I take different paths. Whereas Ellis proposes an `autonomous emergent higher level dynamics' I am arguing, from first principles, that nonlinearity is the essential way to explain quantum measurement and absence of macroscopic superpositions. I of course must admit that trying to understand something as complex as a living system,

and consciousness, is beyond the scope of my essay.

Tejinder

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  • Post #29

i enjoyed reading your comments on Ellis's essay that i happen to make. You are confident of your approach is a good sign. However,whenever you meet someone with an alternete approach do not take it otherwise. One never knows when the right idea may come out of blue!

i understand your reluctance at this time to forget about obscure parameter like 'consciousness'/ mind. But then we do our entire Physics using the mind and being aware of things within and around us. Have you seen the essay, forgetting the author's name, where he has worked out the Mathematics for physics based on two of the 'directly' felt variables, gravity and consciousness, treating the latter as a rotational vector due to mass assemble around the gravity vector that comes without the rotational aspect of mass ensemble. if you feel intersted i will let you know the essay and author on this forum. No compulsion to you, but i for one wish you to keep your mind open and try a wholesome approach. You have exhibited the same through your mesascopic region approach.

Dear Narendra,

I did not at all intend to suggest that one will not learn something useful from other approaches. I apologize if my remarks give that impression. Actually I intended to say that my essay deals only with the issue of quantum theory and the unification of interactions.

In my opinion, judging by the historical development of physics and mathematics, it should be possible to develop a quantum theory of unified interactions without having to bring in the physics and biology of mind and consciousness. In ways that we do not comprehend [like Einstein said] nature `permits' the mind to pick out the truth from `out there', and express it as physics and mathematics, and compare it with experiment.

I would very willingly agree that mind and consciousness must be understood as emergent phenomena, from the underlying physics, chemistry and biology. I would agree with Ellis that physics may not be able to do so in a reductionist sense, (say by writing evolutionary differential equations). I also fully agree with you that physicists and biologists ought to engage in a dailogue on this subject, in order for it to make better progress.

But in so far as the limited goal of understanding quantum theory and unification is concerned, in my view this will be possible in an objective (as opposed to subjective) sense, without an explicit reference to mind. In my view mind and consciousness are fundamental tools (whose existence we humbly accept, without yet fully understanding them) which we use to construct a description of theoretical physics [the inanimate physical world out there].

Tejinder

Dear Narendra,

I wanted to add, from the viewpoint of my essay, [which I end by talking of `The view from the summit'], that a whole new vista will open up once unification has been achieved. Once we have a unified description of interactions which we can describe in terms of a `single force', we still have the task of understanding `where this force came from'? We will seemingly then be led to even deeper layers of physics and mathematics - how that relates to mind and consciousness (if it does) would seem extremely difficult to address at this stage. I am essentially taking a very conservative approach - one could call it baby steps. But I do very much respect your looking at a larger picture and trying to look beyond.

Tejinder

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  • Post #32

Tejinder, i agree with your strategy of unification first, specially now that you have introduced the consideration of the mesascopic region, in between the classical and quantum domains. Yes, continue to view the overall progress from the top of the Himalayas while persuing your own goal with limited strategy at present, seeking a unified field. In fact it has to be this very field that originated the universe. Only subsequently the four fields emerged sequentially by way of gravity, nuclear strong, electromegnetic and nuclear weak, to correspond with the requirements of the evolution of the Universe fixed by the logic of its birth out of 'nothing physical' pre-existing. We can't know why the Big bang took place and what existed prior to it.

i have further visualised the field strengths of these four fields at emergence, have not remained constant, specially in the conditions prevailing in the earliest history of the universe( in the first billion year of its life!) In a way, physics at that time was not the same as it is now. That is why we are unable to understand the origin of dark and visible matter, dark energy etc.,, although all these must have originated from the same primordial matter born at the Big bang, along with the unified field existing at that moment. Gravity is a complex field compared to the others that emerged later only, as it has apparently played different roles, sych as near instantaneous inflation of a point universe into a the initial size. It is the laterthat had both the dark and visible matter where the dominating dark matter started repelling the visible amtter through the dark energy asociated with it.

Dear Stephan, Georgina, Tejinder, Cristi, Amrit, and Anonymous,

I would like to draw your attention to the summary of comments between myself and Jonathan in regard to the observer-participant MC-QED formalism", which are presented below. Since many of you have been skeptical about the ideas

present in my essay it would be helpful to me if we could we have critical group discussion on these comments.

Thanks for your interest and I am looking forward to hearing more from all of you.

Dr. Darryl Leiter

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COMMENT 1. Dear Jonathan,

You commented that: You seem to move directly from the microscale to the macroscopic observer, however, without any attention to what is between, and according to decoherence theory (DT) that's where all the fun is! The whole transition from Quantum to Classical behavior merges because although decoherence is swift, it is not immediate. And DT asserts that the wavefunction does not simply collapse, but rather gets spread out through entangling interactions, and with the larger environment.

My answer to your comment is as follows:

WHY MC-QED IMPLIES AN INTRINSICALLY TIME REVERSAL VIOLATING DECOHERENCE PROCESS WHICH INCLUDES A WAVE-FUNCTION COLLAPSE.

It has been shown [Leiter, D., (2009), On the Origin of the Classical and Quantum Electrodynamic Arrows of Time, ArXiv:0902.4667] that for a sufficiently large aggregate of atomic systems (which are described by the bare state component of MC-QED Hamiltonian and assumed to exist in an "environment" associated with the retarded quantum measurement interaction component of the MC-QED Hamiltonian), the net effect of the quantum measurement interaction in MC-QED will generate intrinsically time reversal violating decoherence effects on the reduced density matrix in a manner which can give large aggregates of atomic systems apparently classical properties.

This is in contrast to the time reversal symmetric case of QED where the local quantum decoherence effects only appear to be time irreversible. This occurs in the time symmetric description of decoherence in QED because a local observer does not have access to the entire wave function and, while interference effects appear to be eliminated, individual states have not been projected out.

Hence we conclude that the resolution of the problem of the asymmetry between microscopic quantum objects and macroscopic classical objects inherent in the laws of quantum physics can be found in the MC-QED formalism, because the intrinsically time reversal violating quantum decoherence effects inherent within it imply that MC-QED does not require an independent external complementary classical level of physics obeying strict Macroscopic Realism in order to obtain a physical interpretation.

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COMMENT 2. Dear Jonathan,

(JONATHAN QUESTION) When you are talking about Measurement Color, this is an an attempt to quantify the fact that the process of making a Measurement will Color what we measure, because the observer is also acting as a participant. This statement is true even if both the observer and observed are sub-atomic particles. Therefore you are apparently asserting that it is possible to accomplish quantifying measurement's effect by imposing an Abelian gauge symmetry, associated with this observer-participant aspect of measurements, upon the structure of QED. Is this correct?

(DJL ANSWER) Congratulation! You have got the idea exactly right!

(JONATHAN QUESTION) That is; by figuring in how each measurement will color what is measured, and applying this rule to every microscale interaction, you are able to alter or expand QED.

(DJL ANSWER: Yes this is correct! In MC-QED I have mathematically used the word "Measurement Color" in as an extension of the concept of color is used in the Standard Model to denote the different kinds of quantum particle forces. I am extending the QED formalism by using an additonal Abelian microscopic quantum particle field operator has an integer name which I call its MEASUREMENT COLOR to impose and operator type of "observer-participation" onto the field theoretic formalism. In the Standard Model the Abelian observer-participant symmetry of Measurement Color can be used in addition to the non-Abelian SU3 x SU2 x U1 symmetries.

(JONATHAN QUESTION): And you have extended QED in such a way that by adding in the coloration of measurement, you derive a theory that is explicitly causal, or reveals the directionality of time.Am I getting closer to understanding what you are talking about?

(DJL ANSWER): Yes! The impostion of the observer-participant Measurement Color operator symmetry, onto both the electron-positron and the photon operator fields in QED, leads to the MC-QED formalism which has the form of a non-local quantum field theory is C, P, and CP invatiant but spontaneosly violates the T symmetry. The resulant violation of the CPT theorem implias that the photon carries the causal arrow of time. This observer-particpant formulation of quantum electrodynamics has the potential to open the door to finding the connection between quantum mechanics and consciousness. In this way we may be able to find a connection between our minds and the "mind of the universe".

What could be more incredible!

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COMMENT 3: Jonathan replies,

Glad I got past the verbal stumbling block, and have made sense of things. It's not the color of the measurement, but how the measurement is colored by the act of measuring. Great how you have married that with QED.

A worthwhile idea indeed. Incredible it is, but quite credible at the same time. And worthy of the extra time taken to understand it.

Dear Don,

Apologies for this delay in replying to your post above. I agree with you that the physics near the Planck mass scale will contain what you call a `mxture of the QM stuff and the classical stuff'. As an example, what I have in mind is a nonlinear Schrodinger equation, valid in the Planck mass region, which goes to Newton's laws in the large mass limit, and to the usual linear Schrodinger equation in the small mass limit. Such an equation is presented and analysed in the works I cite in my essay.

With regard to your kind suggestion to contact the Vienna group, we are right now preparing a proposal for an experiment on nonlinearity induced quantum measurement where predictions of rapidly repeated quantum measurements differ slightly from those of the standard theory. Right now this is at

the stage of a `thought expriment' but we will contact the Vienna group to seek their view on the technological feasibility of doing such an experiment.

Thank you for your interest and suggestions,

Tejinder

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  • Post #35

Tejinder, i feel satisfied with your phasing of the research efforts as per your own plan. All success in your efforts. I am just a bystander at my stage of life. Active physics is the domain of persons like you and many others bright young ones. My role can be only helpful suggestions/advice, without any folow-up from my side!It was my personal experience what a quiet and disciplined mind can help do better Physics, whuch i try to put into my posts. The tools of mathematics i respect as also the experimental efforts. What i don't like is mathematical jugglary and becoming trigger happy with whatever one happens to be doing. There the human individual mind plays a good role. I also distingush between brain functions and the mind. It is the latter that carries the strength of 'consciousness' which is just not confined to the physical limits of an individual concerned.

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  • Post #36

Tejinder,

Your work is exciting, and advancing physics with "real" experiments.

If any of your work with the Vienna group becomes public, I would be very interested in seeing it. Is there or will there be a web site or blog?

For what it is worth, here is an idea for getting info on the mesascopic region:

1. Diamond is a very stable crystal that is considered one molecule (similar to a Buckyball C60).

2. Diamond is different than C60 because it scales. A diamond with 8 atoms is a single molecule

with what I would suspect is strong quantum mechanical properties. Meaning that it will interfere

with itself in double slit experiments. The Hope Diamond (9.1 grams) is also considered a single

molecule with what I would suspect is no quantum mechanical properties. Meaning it will not

interfere with itself in double slit experiments.

3. Sort industrial grade diamonds into 16 bins. Bin #1 containing diamonds with mass 10^-24 kg,

Bin #2 containing diamonds with mass 10^-23 kg, ...Bin #16 containing diamonds with mass

10^-8 kg. I am making an assumption that such small diamonds can be made to order.

4. Deliver these 16 bins of diamonds to the Vienna group for their QM analysis. I am not sure how

they make their measurements, I am just guessing that they do double slit experiments.

5. Do you believe this range of "particles" will span the mesascopic region and perhaps show how

quantum mechanical mass progresses to "ordinary" mass.

Always interested in your thoughts,

Don L.

Dear Don,

Thank you for your exciting remarks. I did not know about these properties of diamond.I think you and people at the Vienna group surely know more about material properties than I do! Their website by the way is www.quantum.at Under the link Research/Molecular Interferometry they do talk of interferometry with large molecules, but they do not seem to mention diamond - I do not know the reason for that.

The range and bins you mention certainly are ideal for covering the mesoscopic domain. Yes, interference experiments are one of the best ways to test quantum mechanics in the mesoscopic domain. A real challenge that will have to be faced though, is to eliminate interaction with the environment (the so-called decoherence process). I believe this will apply to diamond as much as to anything else - but please correct me if you think I am wrong.

Another experiment, in principle, is to measure the effective value of `Planck's constant' using a mesoscopic particle such as the diamond grain you mention. This value is predicted to be significantly different from the bare quantum value. I have not been able to come up with an idea how to make such a measurement.

Also of direct interest is the measurement process itself. In my way of looking at things, suppose you make a quantum measurement of an observable of a quantum system which is in a superposition of two states. The way nonlinearity destroys superposition is as follows : when a measurement begins, one of the two states starts to grow exponentially, while the other starts to decay exponentially. The growth/decay process can be said to be `complete' over some calculable time scale tau. Now suppose we were to suddenly take away the measuring apparatus `during' the measurement, [i.e. after a time less than tau since the start of measurement] the state we will be left with is a certain superposition of the two states of the kind that is not seen in ordinary quantum mechanics. It is a sum of an exponentially grown state and an exponentially decayed state - this prediction is different from quantum mechanics. If we feed such a state into a second measuring apparatus, `quickly' after the first partial measurement, the outcome will be different from that predicted by quantum mechanics. I and a colleague of mine are working on converting this into something precise and quantitative, but at this stage it is still a thought experiment. One will have to worry about eliminating decoherence. Decoherence is a very major hurdle to testing mesoscopic quantum mechanics - it will be a great success if someone can propose a test of mesoscopic quantum mechanics which does not depend on decoherence.

Regards,

Tejinder

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  • Post #38

May i draw your kind attention to a posting i happen to make on the essay which have now become the top one in community votings. it covers also the theme of your own essay in some sense.Look forward to your response, either on my essay site, yours or Ajek's.

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  • Post #39

it is Arjins essay that i meant, soory to spell it wrong as ' Ajek '

Dear Narendra,

I broadly agree with your remarks. While I fully support trying to develop better ways to understand/visualize quantum mechanics, I am of the opinion that understanding the quantum measurement problem requires new physics. This must be accompanied by experimental tests of the many worlds interpretation (if any such tests are possible), of the details of quantum measurement, and of the mesoscopic domain.

Tejinder