Eckard,

Front velocity refers to the leading-edge of a signal. There is no leading edge on an infinitely long sinusoid.

Einstein's 1905 paper is dealing with a mathematically idealized case, not messy reality. In reality, there is no such thing as "empty space", and no such thing as a single frequency (hence infinitely long, since any finite "truncated" signal has a spectrum). Nevertheless, it is just such an idealized case that Einstein was writing about. Give the guy a break. He turned out an amazing amount of good work that year. Why complain that he didn't deal with EVERY problem then?

You asked "Shouldn't you reconsider your argumentation?" It is not my argument. It is Einstein's. If you believe in an afterlife, then, when you arrive there, you my query Einstein about his choice, just as Odysseus queried Achilles about his, in Homer's tale.

Rob McEachern

"There is no leading edge on an infinitely long sinusoid."

Rob, I know what a strain it is to try and bring anti-relativists to an understanding of continuous functions.

Good luck.

Akinbo,

You stated that "Since you know G, M and r for Earth, I want maximum accuracy, give it to me please!"

Unfortunately, I do not know the number of free electrons encountered by any signal along its path. Since the travel-time of the signal depends upon this number, neither I nor anyone else can be absolutely accurate. I know, from personal experience, that that number can change dramatically in time-scales less than 0.001 seconds, for signals traveling through the Earth's ionosphere. This is a major source of error, in attempting to geo-locate signals via their measured travel-times, especially at low frequencies.

You stated that "Special relativity is being used to define the constancy and the value of that constant"

Special relativity only defined the former, not the latter.

You stated "I take you to mean that the law of the constancy of light in vacuo is invalid under (very strong) gravitational influence? And valid only where there is no gravitational field?"

"Invalid" is too strong a word. As you increase the content of (formerly) "empty space", by adding gravitational fields, free electrons, or anything else that light may interact with, then the speed of light traversing that space will increasingly deviate from its speed in "vacuum".

Rob McEachern

"You (Akinbo) stated that Special relativity is being used to define the constancy and the value of that constant'

"Special relativity only defined the former, not the latter."

Exactly right. It seems the hardest thing to convince an anti-relativist that the constant of proportionality between energy and mass is exactly 1. They think the empirical value of the speed of light has meaning. It does not.

Eckard,

You suggested your 'idea' is consistent with the 1925 Michelson Gale Pearson finding. MGP concluded that there is a light carrying medium, reporting; 'fringe shifts due to ether flow with respect to the Earth's rotation' in an Earth centred (orbiting) aether at rest (i.e. the ionospheric frame). This was also consistent with Millers independent findings of increasing ('birefringent') effect with altitude. Such subtleties are normally missed or ignored as they appear difficult to reconcile with SR.

What is however certain is that your thesis is not consistent with this finding any more than it is with the simplistic 'standard' interpretation or SR. The finding is however entirely consistent with Rob's. It seems then it may not be Rob who needs to reconsider his 'argumentation'.

Are you familiar with J.D Jackson and varying 'extinction distances' with density?

Akinbo;

Considering extinction may also be helpful to you to better understand my descriptions and Robs point on approximation due to plasma density.

Best wishes

Peter

Rob,

"Perhaps. But to what end?" Explaining the 'asymmetry' to advance understanding.

A whole tranche of anomalies and paradoxes may be resolved by more precisely matching the mathematical description to the underlying physical 'mechanism' of Maxwell's near / far field transition (which includes deriving the 'LT' non-linearity). The SR postulates re-emerge with a more complete specification and explanation.

A bit like the currency conversion; The maths may be perfectly precise but give little clue as to the physical mechanisms required to actually implement a transfer from pounds to dollars. The physical reality will also always be an approximation of the mathematics to ~0.5 cents.

I stated some of the anomalies which would be lifted. Non-linear optics is beset with them, but most are unfamiliar as they're 'swept under the carpet'. The violation of Snell's Law at 'kinetic reverse' refraction is just one, recovered by the mechanism. I can provide a full mechanistic description of processes, some of which you already understand, but manipulating the representative symbols isn't my game. Contact me on peter.jackson53(at)ymail.com to have a closer look. I'm also joint author on a paper on superluminal quasar jet acceleration and collimation mechanisms you may be interested in (presently in review).

Two-fluid plasmas are very interesting mechanisms, relating to increased photo-ionization rates with intensity, so 'Higgs process' pair production rate linked with relative motion, also closely related to the phase/group matter.

Best wishes

Peter

Rob, Tom,

"There is no leading edge on an infinitely long sinusoid." Well, for this reason I consider R and cosine transformation more appropriate than the use of R and Fourier transformation in combination with Heaviside's trick. The leading edge is the now, the point zero of elapsed time.

Ripping apart Einstein in this respect seems to me more important than revealing in what your argumentation (and also Peter's still untenable idea of nested local velocities) were inconsistent.

Eckard

Okay Rob, let me digest your reply.

Since you prefer not to rewrite history... I said "Was it not Earth-based experiments that gave birth to SR?", And you reply, "No. Never". The experiment took place in 1887, and SR was born in 1905.

But you redeem yourself when you say, "Of course, it was Maxwell's Theory and the Michelson-Morley experiment then lead Einstein to these Postulates".

Happy weekend.

Happy weekend to you too Tom. I know you are a Die Hard supporter of Einstein but you deny him on many occasions. And as for "they think the empirical value of the speed of light has meaning. It does not". Don't say this in Einsteiniana. You may be excommunicated. BIPM define a metre and a second with that same value which you say has no meaning.

Akinbo

The only way to save special relativity:

If a light source emits pulses the distance between which is d (e.g. d=300000 km), an observer moving with speed v towards / away from the source measures the frequency of the pulses to be f'=(c±v)/d. Accordingly, the speed of the pulses relative to the observer is c'=c±v, in violation of special relativity.

There is an assumption allowing the speed of the pulses relative to the observer to remain unchanged (c'=c) while the measured frequency is still f'=(c±v)/d. However this assumption is extremely silly and clever Einsteinians would never advance it explicitly. Here it is:

The extremely silly assumption without which special relativity is doomed: When the observer starts moving towards / away from the light source with speed v, the distance between the pulses somehow shifts from d to d'=cd/(c±v), Divine Einstein, yes we all believe in relativity, relativity, relativity.

Pentcho Valev

"The extremely silly assumption without which special relativity is doomed: When the observer starts moving towards / away from the light source with speed v, the distance between the pulses somehow shifts from d to d'=cd/(c±v), Divine Einstein, yes we all believe in relativity, relativity, relativity."

Valev, you know that if this were any other forum, you would have been booted long ago for trolling. Special relativity assumes measurement between mass points, not spacetime points. Your futile "argument" amounts to internet pollution.

"BIPM define a metre and a second with that same value which you say has no meaning."

No they don't. A universal metre length is defined as a rest mass maintained under constantly controlled conditions; a universal second is defined as a certain number of oscillations of an atom maintained under constantly controlled conditions.

This has nothing to do with the uncontrolled conditions of nature in situ. These conventions are no different in principle than defining a yard as the distance from the king's nose to the tip of his middle finger.

The *meaning* of special relativity is E = m; i.e., the constant of proportionality is 1. The constant c is allows calculation of proportions of energy to mass less than 100% energy, which remains as rest mass potential.

Eckard,

You used "untenable" inappropriately. It's proper definition is; "incapable of being maintained, defended, or vindicated" which does not apply to the well proven hierarchical structure of Truth Functional Logic used for 'nested' local backgrounds ('Proposition' = 'System'), or any empirical evidence cited ('disagreement' is not 'falsification'). I'd suggest perhaps more precise words are; 'unappealing' (subjective) or; 'undesirable' (to anybody with contrary beliefs or who dismisses logic).

Tom,

It seems you forgot the other 'm'. Either rest mass or inertial mass must be used whichever is most convenient, so for proportionality to be 'consistent'; E = m_r = m_i = 1, where m_r varies from m_i when not at rest. Otherwise m - E/c^2 would be false.

Did you see and comment in the 'paper of the year' I posted above explaining that the description;

"that the speed of massless particles (i.e. the speed of light) is the same independently of the chosen reference system in which the measurement is performed....is true and false at the same time."

In case not it's here; Stefano Liberati 2013. Your views?

Best wishes

Peter

Thomas Howard Ray wrote: "Valev, you know that if this were any other forum, you would have been booted long ago for trolling. Special relativity assumes measurement between mass points, not spacetime points. Your futile "argument" amounts to internet pollution."

The first and the third sentences are very clear, thanks, I love you too, but the second one:

"Special relativity assumes measurement between mass points, not spacetime points."

is enigmatic. Could you elaborate on that?

Pentcho Valev

    Peter,

    In regards to:

    "A whole tranche of anomalies and paradoxes may be resolved by more precisely matching the mathematical description to the underlying physical 'mechanism' of Maxwell's near / far field transition (which includes deriving the 'LT' non-linearity). The SR postulates re-emerge with a more complete specification and explanation."

    I do not think that any "fundamental" mathematical description of such anomalies is possible. As described in my 2012 FQXI essay, concise sets of equations are almost devoid of information. Consequently, they can never describe phenomenon that are not similarly devoid of information.

    Maxwell's equations for electrodynamics, the equations of hydrodynamics, thermodynamics etc, are all secondary, rather than fundamental laws; they describe statistical behaviors of large sets of "initial conditions", too large to deal with individually at a more fundamental level. In other words, they are an amalgam of the information content of more fundamental laws, together with gross characterizations of the information content of the myriad, specific initial conditions.

    For example,

    I am in orbit around the sun. But Einstein's equations are never going to describe my exact orbit, to the same precision it can describe the orbit of the earth's center of mass.

    The motions of waves on the surface of the ocean can be described by the equations of hydrodynamics. But near the shore, where wave height becomes comparable to water depth, non-linearities set in and the equations are no longer accurate. But this is not a failure of any fundamental law; no attempt was ever made to track the motion of each and every water molecule, much less all the atoms making up those molecules.

    And when a high intensity sound wave drastically heats the air as it passes through it, and thereby changes it's propagation characteristics, again, it is not the failing of any fundamental principle, anymore than a baseball, encountering air-resistance, and thus not following a Newton's law derived parabolic path, represents a failure of Newton's law.

    In all these cases, a "short-cut" was taken, to avoid the obstacles of having to deal with high-infomation-content initial-conditions. But it is not the fault of the fundamental laws, that a such a short-cut was attempted and then went astray.

    Einstein said that light, traveling down an empty highway, can go at cruise-control at a constant speed. He never said it could do the same during rush-hour, with roads packed with free-electron pot-holes and deep gravitational mud covering the surface.

    Rob McEachern

    Robert McEachern,

    Greetings, I thought you comments on SR easily intelligible, thank-you.

    In keeping with your criteria that many equations (Theorems) are secondary to fundamental laws, what about Planck's Theorem? Does the Planck Constant as stated in erg sec. mean it must always be associated with the phase velocity of any ascribed wavelength, or can it be used properly as the energy value alone as the content of that wave? If the sec. parameter is dropped, is the Quantum 6.626196 x 10^-27erg? And is that energy quantity fundamentally discrete, or continuously divisible as a constituent of a coupled charge, the proportions of which are dependent on wavelength? Your thoughts would be welcomed.

    Also, anybody, is there an agreed upon value in gram measure for the Planck Mass (mP) and a link would be nice? Thanks- jrc

    "'"Special relativity assumes measurement between mass points, not spacetime points.'"

    is enigmatic. Could you elaborate on that?"

    I could. However, if you know special relativity well enough to ridicule it, the statement should not be enigmatic.

    A spacetiime field influence convergent on center point of mass is self-limiting in its relation to every other mass. This is known as Mach's Principle, the philosophical foundation of general relativity.

    Special relativity, which refers to rigid metric transformations, is divergent and therefore not self-limiting; rather, the local transformations are limited to the distance at which two bodies can have physically exchanged information instaneously. That limit is c. Point convergence and line (ray) divergence leaves a 1-dimension singularity. Therefore, no such term as c' is admitted. Ironically, it is the flaw in general relativity inherited from the pathology of special relativity that makes your proposition untenable. The singularity will form before you can add a velocity.

    Tom

    The actual problem:

    A light source emits pulses the distance between which is d (e.g. d=300000 km).

    A stationary observer/receiver measures the frequency to be f=c/d; accordingly the speed of the pulses relative to him is c.

    An observer/receiver moving with speed v towards the source measures the frequency to be f'=(c+v)/d; accordingly the speed of the pulses relative to him is:

    c' = ?

    The reasonable answer:

    c' = df' = c + v

    The unreasonable answer (given by special relativity):

    c' = d'f' = c

    where d'=cd/(c+v) is an ad hoc requirement without any physical meaning - it is just the factor able to convert the dangerous c'=c+v into the glorious c'=c, Divine Einstein, yes we all believe in relativity, relativity, relativity.

    Pentcho Valev

    Peter,

    Florin confessed being "completely speechless on" OMG. I wonder what OMG stands for, and why did Florin not distinguish between d in case of constant didtance and d in case of changing distance.

    What about my judgment that your main idea is untenable, I would like to distinguish between my suspicion that you seem to prefer wording the problem vaguely enough so that no one can figure out what your talking about and my argument that the constant speed of light in vacuum must not be explained by postulating local extinction and subsequent reemission.

    I guess that reddening of light by interstellar absorption and scattering is certainly important and should not be prematurely substituted by the BB hype.

    However, already Michelson's 1881 experiment gave rise to question the ether wind hypothesis, and MGP 1925 implies that we must not infer that there is no absolute space and no absolute time. Instead we have to consider that there is no a priori preferred point of reference in space if we assume space a limitless scenario of distances like an ideal sheet of white paper, while the rotation in case of MGP defines such reference point.

    Eckard

    Nice analogy Rob,

    Makes me understand Relativity better. The more the gravitational mud, the lower speed of light. Less mud, slightly higher speed. Our Earth is certainly not the muddiest nor the least muddy place in the Universe. In our slightly muddy gravitational environment we measure light transit time over one metre as 1/299792458 seconds. Thank you sir! I can see clearly now the rain is gone (with lyrics)/ I can see all obstacles in my way... More later.

    Tom,

    Thanks for the David Lerner lecture link. The ongoing battle is between Galilean and Lorentzian transformation. We are on opposite sides of the battle line but I believe we are all soldiers fighting for the truth.

    Peter,

    I have read the paper by Stefano Liberati . More of a review meant to maintain the status. The paper contains a reference to a paper by Brendan Foster who anchored the last contest which I also intend to see. I have made a few notes and if I think it furthers the cause I will post them. I am not yet familiar with extinction but will familiarize myself with it. But what does it change in the battle between Galilean and Lorentz transformation? I doubt little.

    Eckard,

    Waiting for your expert advice before commencing my trip into space (testing reality in space blog). I don't feel safe enough with Tom's advice.

    Akinbo