Scales Solve the Continuous vs. Discrete Paradox by Ray B Munroe

Previously, I said ""Analog" is simply a near-infinite (where "near-infinite" is ~10^41) number of "digital" samplings". This statement might imply that reality is fundamentally digital, and can always be "digitized", so I thought that I should clarify a point. When we have a very large number (~10^41?) of overlapping wave functions, we may have intereference and non-linear effects that cause this analog function to be inherantly different from the "digitized" version of the analog function. Thus reality is BOTH analog and digital, and cannot be reduced to one or the other.

Ray,

Thank you for responding on my thread.

You say: "I attribute this coincidence to the geometry of 3 spatial dimensions, rather than the square of an amplitude."

I interpret this to mean "three degrees of freedom". For example Boltzmann's constant is multiplied by 3 for three degrees of freedom:

1/2 mv^2 = (3/2)kT

This is quite different from assuming that 3 spatial dimensions implies a cube root.

Is this what you're saying?

And Ray, the "drive by shooting" was tongue in cheek. I am not upset that you posted a remark where you considered it appropriate at the time, but I would like to have a 'heads up' so I can respond. I do think this 'Fly-by' physics is important validation as I derived the physics long before I had the measured values to compare to.

Of course either of our interpretations may be wrong.

Having fun!

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Hi Ed,

I think that three degrees of freedom gives us a factor of three, not the power of three that coincidentally distinguishes the inverse Cosmolgical Constant from Dirac's Large Number.

In my essay, I said that fine-tuning on the order of ~10^41 (or its inverse) is not mathematically probable or philosophically reasonable. I deduce that 10^41 must, therefore, be a number that is mandated by our scale.

What about 10^123 (and its inverse)? Is it the ultimate scale number for our scale, and 10^41 is its cube root? Or is 10^-123 "leakage" from a scale of greater complexergy than ours? [By the way, I did enjoy your reference to Nottale's scales.] If this number was different, say 10^-100, then I would be more willing to accept it as leakage from another scale.

If it has a bill, webbed feet, and quacks, then it might be a duck. The similarity between 10^-123 vs. (10^41)^-3 is too striking to ignore.

Have Fun!

Dr. Cosmic Ray

Ray,

I must admit that I don't understand the relevance of what might be entirely accidental numerical relations.

For example, in attempting to calculate the strength of the C-field, I found it 10^31 stronger than Maxwell assumed (he did so for no good reason, just simple symmetry) and recently Tajmar has measured the C-field and found the same factor of 10^31 greater than expected.

Now these numbers are not "exact" but they are very close being the EXACT FOURTH ROOT of 10^123 , that is, (10^31)^4 = 10^124 [close enough for government work].

Is that too striking to ignore?

So it may or may not be legitimate to play the numbers game where there is not real physics to back it up, only theories of scale.

By the way, I owe the use of Nottale in my essay to you. Thanks.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear Sreenath,

Your paper is an interesting approach towards quantum gravity. Personally, I think that quantum gravity is more complex than your model, but this is a good start. I see some overlapping commonalities in our ideas.

You said "Now if the acceleration (or gravity) varies,let us say exponentially as in the case of EM field (bremsstrahlung) as well as in the QG field, test-masses of classical size still describe continuous path although in QG field they describe logarithmic (or equiangular) spiral path on a plane or conical spiral path in three dimensions as they are subjected to 'Torsion'."

I think that the Golden Ratio helps explain the problem of infinity by introducing self-similar scales. One special logarithmic spiral is the Golden Spiral based on the Golden ratio.

You also proposed Č/C ≈ 10-21, where Č is a lower speed for our scale. This sounds like my expectations for scales - where a finite observable Universe requires all numbers to be truncated at the high and low ends of the spectrum. And your 10^-21 is the inverse-square-root of Dirac's Large Number 10^41.

I think that the Black Hole (near) "singularity" is truncated by a discrete lattice of spacetime itself (call it quantum gravity?). The most likely geometry for the core of a static Black Hole is a Carbon-60 Buckyball. A rotating Black Hole would produce enough torsion that a pair of nested Buckyballs may morph into their homotopic cousin, a lattice-like near-torus. This lattice-like behavior would only exist in the region of quantum gravity, and must (somehow?) transition to the continuous expectations of General Relativity as we move radially outward from the (near) "singularity".

Good Luck in the Essay Contest!

Have Fun!

Dr. Cosmic Ray

HA! We might both be playing a little bit of numerology - perhaps time will tell if either of us guessed even closely...

Hi to both of you,to all,

It seems to me that it's essential to differenciate the scales always in 3d,smaller or bigger with their pure limits and on the other side, the extradimensions without respect of these 3 dimensions and its time constant implied by rotating entangled spheres.In fact the scales are just smaller or bigger,that's all, that's why fortually we have the realitivity.The laws rest the laws in a pure deterministic road at all scales.Fortunally for our proportionalities....

Best Regards

Steve

Dear Ray Munroe,

Thanks for your openion on my article.Since the path described in the QG field is logarithmic (or equiangular)spiral path as it is an exponentially varying accelerated (or gravity) field.So your openion that it is related to Golden ratio is justified.Iam also surprised to learn that the ratio of Č/C Лњ 10-21 is related to Dirac's Large Number 10^41.

In the limited space available in the essay contest,I couldn't,present my complete views on QG field and Black-Holes (BH).So for this,please,go to my web-site which I have mentioned in my essay (http://www.sreenath.webs.com).

Regarding BH,a BH can never be a static object for it is a pure state of vacuum surrounded by densest matter whose mass is related to the radius of BH.That is why matter cannot be crushed to singularity as to be expected from GR,because it is the force of QG which dominates inside the BH and GR just stops when matter attains its gravitational radius.The metric of GR breaksdown and gravitation is takenover by the brute force of QG.The force of QG is 'diabolically' active and never allows the BH to remain static but fluctuate periodically.There is still more to it but for now it is enough.

Since QG force is an exponentially varying accelerated (or gravity) field which implies torsion and when torsion vanishes the field becomes uniformly accelerated field (i.e.,gravitation as described by GR), away from the BH.

Wishing you too good luck in the essay contest .

cheers

Sreenath B N.

Dear Sreenath,

I like your torsion quantum gravity idea. It reminds me of Edwin Eugene Klingman's "C" GEM-like field taken to the extreme example of a Black Hole singularity.

A fullere-like near-torus (the homotopic cousin to a pair of nested buckyballs - I still need to cut up a couple of soccer balls so that I can envision this near-toroidal lattice) of spacetime lattice might behave as the gravitational equivalent of a superconductor and repeal Gravitational fields. After all, Carbon Buckyballs have electrical superconductor properties and can repel Electric fields.

In addition, stars usually have a rotational spin. As they collapse into Black Holes, conservation of Angular Momentum should cause the Black Hole to spin faster as its effective radius decreases.

Perhaps the combination of spin/ torsion, quantum gravity, and/or gravitational-superconductor effects prevent the Black Hole from fully collapsing into the singularity point.

Earlier, I was worrying about the transition from a quantum lattice of spacetime to a continuously differentiable spacetime. The answer could be as simple as qubits of strings (Philip Gibbs and Lawrence Crowell's essays are recommended reading) - where the near-singularity end of the string behaves like a quantum lattice point, and the strings extend outwards (a logarithmic spiral is an effective way to overcome these scale differences) through the Event Horizon, and into our relatively flat realm of spacetime.

I have enjoyed bouncing ideas off of other contestants. Perhaps we can collectively build ideas that may help solve old problems. As an individual, I run out of ideas in my own little world.

Have Fun!

Dr. Cosmic Ray

Ray,

I have a new post at my thread. I'd appreciate your comments very much...

I'd like to know how you fit the idea of self-similarity at the level of the galaxies. I'd like to know what components you see at that scale and what you don't see and where they should be located 'physically'.

Rafael

Ray,

As you know my GEM theory has for five years predicted no Higgs and no SUSY (Super-Symmetry) and no other new particles.

Your response, if I understood it correctly, is "There has to be SUSY!"

You might want to check out this week's Nature (3 Mar 2011): over a year of searching at LHC has failed to find any evidence of super-particles (or the Higgs), and if SUSY is not found by the end of the year, the theory is in serious trouble (some already say that 'SUSY is dead'.)

Nature says "SUSY's utility and mathematical grace have instilled a "religious devotion" among its followers" some of whom have been working on the theory for thirty years.

The key statement in the article is this:

"This is a big political issue in our field. For some great physicists, it is the difference between getting a Nobel prize and admitting they spent their lives on the wrong track."

That surely makes clear why the resistance is so strong. But I don't believe that you expect the Nobel, nor have you spent your life on this, so what is your response to no SUSY? Can you adjust your theory to live with this?

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Hi Ed,

Most people talk about SUSY within the framework of a Weak-Scale MSSM. My ideas are more general than that. In my opinion, the Standard and/or MSSM Higgs only explains the origin of the W and Z masses well - it really doesn't explain the origin of 3 generations of fermion masses well, but I have ideas that involve Pentachorons and the Golden Ratio - similar to Coldea et al's magnetic quasiparticles...

I think that SUSY, String Theory and TOE may all be related. I know that SUSY and String Theory aren't popular, and a TOE doesn't have to exist (but for the sake of "symmetry" and "beauty", I am pursuing the idea).

Can the LHC exclude my ideas? Perhaps, but not in its second year of operation. The LHC has already discovered some unusual stuff - and they have tentatively identified it as a gluon-quark plasma. But what if they have discovered a fractal nature to spacetime, or an unexpected stop squark pair production signal? If SUSY eists, it will have many free parameters - we can only guess some...

I think that your ideas are part of a TOE, but not the complete TOE. Four particles are not enough particles to produce the 5-fold symmetry that I think is the origin of mass (and only one of several symmetries). Lisi's E8 had 8 basis vectors (the 8-D Gosset lattice), and you could probably represent those basis vectors with 4 particles and 4 fields, but E8 is not large enough - by itself - for a TOE. Lawrence and I have been talking about an E8xE8*~SO(32) minimum TOE (and I am looking at larger models).

Am I committed to String Theory, SUSY and TOES? I have been playing with TOE ideas since 1979 (my original Quantum Statistical Grand Unified Theory), my 1996 Doctoral Thesis modeled the possible discovery of SUSY, and I have been playing with String Theoretical ideas for about 5 years.

If the LHC could exclude all of my ideas in the next couple of years, I would quit my independent research, and go back to teaching Astronomy at nights at the local Community College (I did that from 2000-2003 and I made ~10K$ extra income per year - unlike my rocket design, book, publications, and FQXi participation over the past three years that haven't netted any income). I'm not as old as you, but like you there would be no point in starting over...

Have Fun!

Dr. Cosmic Ray

Ray,

Thanks for a serious answer to that question. As you remark, if LHC finds something that disproves my theory, I would just pack it in and enjoy my grandkids more.

I did predict the 'perfect fluid' that they're calling the 'quark gluon plasma' so I feel good about that, because QCD was predicting a 'quark gas'.

Since in my model mass/energy is basic, I don't need any symmetry to realize it. The need for such derives from QED and QCD wherein the fields are effectively 'charge-based' and mass is an 'add-on' or an 'after-thought'.

And the four fermions (times three generations) and four bosons are all there is!

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Hi Ed,

One final point:

I think that Supersymmetry (SUSY) gives us the mathematical umbrella to unify your 4 particles and 4 fields (that sounds similar to an E8~H4xH4*). I am concerned about balancing degrees-of-freedom, perhaps your 4 particles (times 3 generations) is balanced by 4 fields (times 3 spatial dimensions)?

I am still convinced that your idea does not contain enough degrees of freedom, but I think you may have part of the TOE, I respect you enough that I listed you as one of my essay's reviewers, and I am not here to discourage you...

Have Fun!

Dr. Cosmic Ray

Ray

Really appreciate you reading my essay. Your hurdler was unfortunately an incorrect analogy. Don't worry, most struggle to grasp the 3D visualisation at first, but then it becomes simple, as you see from the posts with yours.

I posted a reply, but reproduce it with a thought experiment here;

"Thanks for your post, and having an initial go, but you're not quite there with your hurdler. That's not what I'm saying. Did you read the 'bus' analogy in Lawrence's string? (repeated by Edwin in mine above).

If one hurdler jumps on a passing bus he's IN a different inertial frame (via acceleration). He may well run along the bus at the same speed as the others, but unfortunately is DISQUALIFIED from being observed in the same terms as the others without a mathematical adjustment. i.e. The camera at the finish is perfectly allowed to see him at an APPARENT C plus V, but there is only one VALID inertial frame, that of the running track.

There may be dozens of hurdlers around, on bikes, in cars, planes on infinitely many vectors, but only those in the SAME INERTIAL FRAME of the observer comply with the rules that the maximum possible speed is 'c'.

This means light on the bus will do 'c' with respect to 'wrt' the bus. (Let's imaging a pulse going through a gas on the bus.). The gas molecules scatter light sequentially, at 'c'. It goes through the window (n=1.5) and air at c/n, and everyone else will recive it at 'c'. The fact that to all them it may APPEAR to be doing C plus V DOES NOT MATTER, because in reality it isn't!!

(This is precisely what Georgina is saying, also consistent with Edwins, Constantinos Regazas and many other good essays here, as the posts above).

Yes it IS different, Yes it IS reasonable huge, and yes it does meet and explain both the SR postulates, and identifies how Equivalence works.! The boundary (between the bus and the track) in space is the quantum mechanism of diffraction of plasma, ionised particles, which form all shocks and may well prove to be the core constituent of dark matter. (Eddington was wrong). GR then slots in neatly as the ions condensed with speed ARE mass, with inertia.

The emipirical evidence is unbelievably consistent once we look. I't the discrete field model,(DFM), and you heard it here first, can you see it too? Have fun exploring it!

Best wishes.

Peter

Hi Peter,

No, Your thread is long enough that I had overlooked the bus analogy.

You said "The fact that to all them it may APPEAR to be doing C plus V DOES NOT MATTER, because in reality it isn't!!"

SR also gives this result. What's new? the interpretation of a discrete vs. continuous reality? If reality is fully discrete, then I want you to explain the "vacuum", the permitivity of free space, and the permeability of free space (all of these terms are important in defining the speed of light in a vacuum) in terms of discrete phenomena. I think that the discrete answer to this question should tie into my FCC lattice of the Dirac Sea, and Constantin Leshan's quantum spacetime holes. We are closer to the same bus route than you may realize...

I did not enter this contest to challenge SR and GR - I think that they stand fairly well in their realms of applicability. Certainly, we observe some apparently super-luminal jets. Is this an optical illusion due to gravitational lensing effects, or would the unknown Theory of Quantum Gravity explain it all?

Rather than overthrow SR and GR in their present form, I prefer to try to understand how Quantum Gravity should behave (based on anticipated symmetries), and use it to "modify" our understanding of SR and GR.

Have Fun!

Dr. Cosmic Ray

Dear Friends,

I thought that this exchange with Alan Lowey was worth reposting on this thread:

Hi Ray,

I'd like to applaud you on such an excellent endeavour as your grandiose book. It's just the kind of thing I've wanted to do myself. I have a non-mathematical approach to begin with though, so I would be lost quite quickly if I tried to read it perhaps. I'm sure you can gain something from the Archimedes screw idea, it can explain the galaxy rotation curve mystery as well as dark energy. See the new thread below,

You have fun too Ray,

Best wishes, Alan

Hi Alan,

Thank You! I think that Physics is a necessarily bilingual thought process involving both language and mathematics. Some people fall too heavily on the language side, and some fall too heavily on the mathematics side. Ultimately, a succesful theory will usually involve mathematics applied to an idea.

Perhaps I am too mathematical (I have a PhD in Physics, but only a BS Minor in Mathematics - so I'm not the most extreme mathematician) to appeal to a general audience. Some of my FQXi friends "beat me up" over falsifiability. Chapter 6 of my book did address some falsifiable ideas (I explained Dark Energy with Variable Coupling Theory), but the truth is that I'm always trying to push further beyond the horizon.

It was easy and inexpensive to publish my book as a print-on-demand book on Lulu.com, and pay for Amazon distribution.

Have Fun!

Dr. Cosmic Ray

Dear Ray

Thanks for putting your above post to me on my thread. Modify and improve understanding is indeed the result, but you're not quite on target yet. I post my response below.

"Ray. Hmmm, you need to slow down a bit (to below C?). I make it clear I'm not trying to overthrow anything!! And yes, the jets are also explained without needing optical illusions.

Firstly; Of course SR gives the same result ('c') this IS SR. But, - as we understand it it has paradoxes, unfalsifiable contraction & circular logic, is non compliant with QM, and can't have the fields of GR and now the CMBR! Lets' get real Ray, it's not perfect it's a mess, so all I say is; - Hey! if we think carefully there's a way SR may work without ANY of the messy bits, and unified with QM!

So.. are you saying; "Don't be silly, it's all fine as it is, the theory can't possibly be right so I'm not even going to bother checking it out."??

For those who HAVE made the effort and SEEN it Ray, someone who says that... ..well I'm sure you can imagine how they'd be perceived. I rate your perception higher than that, but do understand how unlikely you may feel this is.

Unless of course you're using the standard model of new physics!; - (ignore, criticise, deny, then claim it's self apparent). I that case It's way further on than I'd hoped!

Frankly I already wrote long ago it's able to be consistent with the Dirac Sea, as with lattices, as it ALLOWS (though not necessarily demands) a background frame, (not one giant bus but 'infinitely many') and provides a quantum matrix (ions & scattering) to implement change to em energy propagation (rate/f/lambda).

The superluminal jets are simply 'Incentric' streams, - small buses within bigger buses within bigger buses, on planets in solar systems in galaxies etc. Light changes speed at plasma shocks around matter to do 'c' in the local 'bus.' THAT'S what's new! and suddenly all else slots neatly into place at last. I really do hope you get this as it seems we could be heading for an astonishing ridiculous situation where it's only (some) physicists who can't understand how physics might really work!!! It needs bright physicists to help falsify it, fine tune it and work on the quite vast consequences.

there are some other papers to read in the string and in the references (stacks of empirical evidence) which may also help. With the 1st paper already in Peer Review this is no joke Ray, and I hope you can maybe give it a just a little respect.

And I really hope you give understanding it a decent shot."

Very best wishes

Peter

Hi Peter,

Did I disrespect you? I read your essay, and felt that it underemphasized the importance of the vacuum, and the permitivity and permeability of free space. I did not say that I disagree with your results - in fact, we may not be as different as you think. By the way, I haven't rated your essay yet either - I like to think about ideas for a few days before I vote on them.

Of course, I learned the Standard Model in graduate school, but if you have read any of my FQXi essays, recently published articles, or book, then you would know that I consider the Standard Model an insufficient guess at reality. You are trying to clarify the understanding of SR and GR. I am not fine-tuning our understanding of SR and GR because I'm working towards a Theory of Quantum Gravity and a TOE. What good is a "TOE" that doesn't explain Quantum Gravity? Read some of the earlier posts on my thread that explain the possible stability of the gravitational near-singularity, and confirm your expectations of the importance of tori. I don't quite equate changing buses with quantum gravity.

Please read Sections 5.5 and 7.5 of my book.(You may need to click on the "Preview" button under the picture of the front cover for a free partial preview). It will give you an idea of just how "non-Standard" my ideas are.

My ideas also include tachyons that travel faster than the speed of light. If you recall, I am a "Cosmic Ray" whose newest vehicle has 150K miles on it, is 11 years old, and would probably blow up if I pushed it over 80 mph (130 kmph). So I'm not very familiar with traveling faster than c, my analogies are just different from everyone elses!

Have Fun!

Dr. Cosmic Ray