Essay Abstract

Is the universe digital or analog? In this essay I argue that both classical and quantum physics include limits that prevent us from definitively answering that question. That quantum physics does so is no surprise. That classical physics does so is rather unexpected. In fact, I argue that classical physics is itself really nothing more than a convenient approximation. Either way, it turns out that our knowledge of the universe is discrete and so it is extraordinarily difficult, perhaps even impossible, to determine the underlying continuity of the universe itself.

Author Bio

Ian Durham is Associate Professor and Chair of the Department of Physics at Saint Anselm College in Manchester, New Hampshire. He is the founding editor of the American Physical Society's _The Quantum Times_ and is a member of FQXi. This essay is dedicated to his father-in-law who passed away quite suddenly as the essay was being completed.

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  • [deleted]

Dear Dr. Ian Durham,

Very well written essay. I have a question. I agree that our knowledge is discrete. I would be interested in your opinion about this viewpoint: I think the reason is that, as I see it, mathematics is the art of providing shortcuts to counting. We must count things. For example we count both points and lines. However, we cannot count what a line is. The line is continuous. There is nothing internal to it for us to count. It can be approximated as a near infinite series of points. But, that practice reveals our limitations and not those of reality. In other words, mathematics can never be used to describe an analog nature. Furthermore, this limitation of ours causes us to theoretically see discreteness and not continuity.

We imagine continuity. We visualize continuity. If we cannot learn that which has never been made known to us, then, our ability to think continuity comes from an analog property of the universe. Is mathematics misguiding us about the nature of the universe? I am not considering the interpretations that we assign to the properties that we believe ourselves to be counting. I am thinking only about an inherent limitation of the process of counting and its substitutes.

Your professional analysis is appreciated. Please use this as an opportunity to expand upon your essay.

James

Thanks James. I like your insight, though I disagree (which isn't to say either one of us is right or wrong). I'm a mathematician in addition to being a physicist and I think mathematics does a perfectly suitable job handling continuity. It is when it is applied to reality that things get all muddled.

There's a lot of interesting work out there on this problem of continuity purely from the mathematical point-of-view (which is why I say either of us could be right - the matter is far from settled despite what most mathematicians might think). Strichartz in his Way of Analysis does an interesting job of "defining" the real numbers and in the process defining what mathematical continuity is (he is basically giving the standard view as derived from Cauchy and Weierstrass). It is admittedly quite appealing and worth a read and I will confess to teaching from this point-of-view when I teach analysis. But I still find it troubling when we start to use real objects instead of mathematical abstractions.

This, of course, brings up the whole question of the ontological status of mathematical objects (abstractions) themselves. I suppose that is an entirely different discussion.

Ian

  • [deleted]

Hi Ian,

In my essay I have explained that "discrete" means simply non-continuous, while "continuous" we know only from the mathematical models. So in which sense are you using these terms?

    Hi Ian, you sound like an intelligent guy who's mathematically minded so I want to put to you this quandry regarding another ancient Greek:

    Newton's inability to consider a particle model for the force of gravity has left a legacy where the ideology of a spacetime continuum has been set in stone. His equation negates the possiblity of a particle for the force of gravity. If he had considered the Archimedes screw as a GRAVITON he would have included an element of ORIENTATION in his simplistic equation, wouldn't he?

    Best wishes,

    Alan

      • [deleted]

      Ian,

      Enjoyed the essay. As previously posted on your blog, I think that David Deutsch generally has the right approach to this question. In short, he thinks that "within each universe all observable quantities are discrete, but the multiverse as a whole is a continuum. When the equations of quantum theory describe a continuous but not-directly-observable transition between two values of a discrete quantity, what they are telling us is that the transition does not take place entirely within one universe. So perhaps the price of continuous motion is not an infinity of consecutive actions, but an infinity of concurrent actions taking place across the multiverse."

      Sorry to hear about your father-in-law. These things are always difficult. All the best to your and your family.

      Mike

        • [deleted]

        Dr. Durham

        Hi. I thought your essay was very good. In regard to your point about the overuse of mathematics as a means of interpreting physical processes, I totally agree and would like to add a related point about infinite sets in relation to physics:

        The main issue I have with measuring the size of an infinite subset relative to the size of the set from which it was extracted relates to my background in biochemistry and is as follows. Mathematicians say that if you start with a single, initial set of all the positive integers and then pull out the subset of even integers and pair off the evens in the subset one-to-one with all the integers in the initial set, then you can see that because of the one-to-one correspondence, the number of elements in the subset is the same as in the original set. This is a thought experiment, but it is still an experiment and should use proper experimental technique. However, the pairing off method uses very bad experimental technique, I think. That is, the system to be studied is the single original set of all the positive integers. The experimental processing is pulling out the subset and pairing it off with the elements in the original set. The results from this experimental processing on two separate sets (ie, equal set sizes) are then assumed to be the same as in the original single set. This is similar to studying the interactions of a cell nucleus with the rest of the cell (ie, the cytoplasm) by pulling out the

        nucleus, putting it in a separate test tube from the rest of the cell,

        studying it there and assuming the results of the processed, separate

        nucleus-cytoplasm systems are the same as in the single, whole cell. They may be but often are not, and so this assumption could be totally incorrect. These types of assumptions are not tolerated in biochemistry because it's well known that processing can create the possibility of experimental

        artifacts (errors introduced by processing), which means that the results after processing don't reflect the situation in the original system. This bad experimental technique shouldn't be acceptable in mathematics either. Even if you say that mathematics is in its own abstract realm, it's also still used in the physical realm of physics. Its use of bad experimental method makes the use of infinities in physics problematic, IMHO.

        I also address the role of infinite sets in physics in the second part of my FQXi assay ("Reality is digital, but its perception as digital or analog depends on the perspective of the observer").

        Any feedback you may have would be welcome. Once again, very nice essay!

        Roger Granet

          Dear Ian T. Durham,

          I have loved your discussion of infinitesimals. Effectively, those exotic objects have evaded mathematicians during three centuries, giving a long controversy, which is still open!

          You cite Robinson's work on "Non-standard analysis"; but, as you must know, this modern analysis has received criticism by other mathematicians. For instance, Connes is trying to obtain a rationalization of infinitesimals using non-commutative geometry due to certain limitations of the non-standard analysis.

          By a lack of space I did not discuss those interesting issues in my Essay. I met with the problem of the infinitesimals, when first tried to obtain a rigorous explanation for the neglect of second order corrections in the quanta n^(plusminus) in the canonical form, when deriving the results of classical physics. For instance, consider an elementary process describing the transport of energy between systems A and B (page 4 in my Essay). If the transport of energy is infinitesimal then the terms quadratic in epsilon are zero and one recovers the classical laws.

          Time ago I named this "epsilon-calculus", although currently it is only a rule of thumb for our scientific applications and nothing that mathematicians would consider. Somehow as Max Planck used the concept of infinitesimal in his books in theoretical mechanics, although mathematicians considered his concept without mathematical meaning.

          The problem is in finding an object epsilon different from zero but with (epsilon)^2 being zero. There is not real or complex number with those properties! Robinson want to characterize the infinitesimals using the new category of non-standard numbers, but if epsilon is a non-standard infinitesimal, then (epsilon)^2 is not zero, but a higher order infinitesimal. Another possibility could be the dual numbers and the Grassmann numbers, that have the property that their square is zero, but I have not studied this enough.

          In practice, I merely take 'infinitesimals' to be very small real or complex numbers such that the squares are so small that cannot be measured in the lab. This is enough for practical applications and, at this point, I agree with you. However, time (fundamental time) is a different concept and a correct understanding of the (t --> t dt) will need of a careful consideration of those mathematical issues.

          I would like to comment the part where you discuss uncertainty relationships for light. You say that when Dt --> 0, "the time-energy uncertainty relation prevents us [...] from measuring the velocity of the object". But for a photon (Dx = c Dt) and the ratio Dx/Dt is well defined in the limit when Dt --> 0, giving the instantaneous speed of the photon. It is true that the relativistic uncertainty relations introduces a lower limit for t as a function of the uncertainty in momentum Dp, but the same limit is also introduced for x, and since the speed of the photon is a constant, both the average speed and the instantaneous speed coincide. In the classical limit the uncertainties go to zero (h --> 0), but we obtain the same speed: c.

          Of course, we do not really measure what you call the "truly" instantaneous velocities, but neither we measure "truly" temperatures, "truly" electric currents, "truly" masses... For instance, suppose that the temperature of an object is T, when we place a thermometer in thermal contact the temperature of the system changes from (T --> T' = T DT), where DT is the perturbation introduced by the thermometer. The goal is that if the thermometer is small enough when compared with the system size then T' will be near enough to T and can take T' as the temperature of the system. Indeed, one of the design goal of thermometers is to achieve the smallest possible size.

          I fail to see why you consider that limitations in measurements imply that "our knowledge of the universe is discontinuous". Those limitations of our laboratories are with us since the very start of science, and all the classical physics, including its experimental branch has always been a science of the continuum.

          You write "In fact it is doubtful, despite de Broglie's contention, that anyone prior to the twentieth century truly believed in a discontinuous universe, though they may have pondered the possibility". It is very difficult to accept that the chemists who developed the atomic theory of matter in the 19th century truly believed in a continuum universe. In a letter to Berzelius of 1812, Dalton Wrote: "The doctrine of definite proportions appears to me mysterious unless we adopt the atomic hypothesis".

          You also write that the "results from the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) have demonstrated that the geometry of the universe must be flat to better than 1%" and that "we of course have long known that it is locally curved". Well, we have also long known that spacetime is curved only in (geo)metric theories. In the so-named flat spacetime theories, e.g. the field theory of gravity (see the ref 19 in my Essay)), gravitation has a non-geometrical interpretation.

          Moreover, this small deviation from flatness of less than 1% is the crux of the famous flatness problem in cosmology. Precisely, the non-geometrical approaches to gravity promise to solve this problem in a natural way (see e.g. [Nikolic]).

          It seems that your "intuitive notion that causality is somehow related to continuity" is related to my emphasis on that fundamental time is a continuous quantity, unlike dimensional time, which can be discrete.

          You write: "By quantizing fields we have seemingly turned something inherently continuous and non-localized into something discrete and localized". Precisely the quantum field theory suffers from the problem of localization, which obligated to physicists to introduce the concept of dummy spacetime. In quantum field theory, we no more can say where a particle "is" in spacetime. As emphasized by Sakurai in his well-known textbook: "It is important to note that the x and t that appear in the quantized field A(x,t) are not quantum-mechanical variables but just parameters on which the field operator depends. In particular, x and t should not be regarded as the space-time coordinates of the photon". See references 4-6 cited in my Essay for more technical details.

          You continue with "To be clear, quantum electrodynamics, which is a quantum field theory, is the most accurate scientific theory ever developed, agreeing with experiment to within ten parts in a billion (10^−8)". The experimental support of quantum electrodynamics is excellent but it must be put in a right context. In the reference 6 in my Essay, I wrote: "Four main remarks may be done about the relativistic experiments and observations: (i) Precision tests of relativistic quantum electrodynamics are not normally carried out by directly comparing observations and experimental results to its theoretical predictions; (ii) the same tests are satisfied by formulations of relativistic quantum electrodynamics that are mutually incompatible between them; (iii) the experiments and observations only consider a very limited subset of phenomena; and (iv) both relativistic quantum electrodynamics and the relativistic quantum field theory are involved, at least indirectly, in some puzzling observations and glaring discrepancies". And then analyzed each remark by separate in the following two pages.

          And then you add "But, ultimately, quantum field theory is built on quantum mechanics just as classical field theory is naturally consistent with classical mechanics". Well I opened the second section in my Essay, with a quote by Paul Dirac stating his dissatisfaction because quantum electrodynamics is not compatible with quantum mechanics. Several textbooks in quantum field theory emphasize some of the differences with quantum mechanics. In my Essay, I cited the standard textbook by Mandl and Shaw, but there is more.

          You also write "Our only other recourse, then, is to assume that mathematical 'objects' have some kind of ontological status. The problem with this view is that there is no way to prove the ontological status of a mathematical object (one could always argue it is simply a representation of a physical object and is thus of a wholly different nature)". I think that would be good to emphasize here Feynman views in his celebrated course in Physics with Leighton, and Sands. They illustrated, in a marvelous form, the difference between physical reality and the mathematical objects used to represent them under certain conditions/approximations. One of their examples was about the difference between the physics of light and Euclidean geometry, which is very relevant to your own discussion of Euclidean geometry and radar guns.

          In the last part of your Essay you write: "Classical physics, with its inherent continuity, is nothing more than a convenient myth. It's a nice approximation that works just fine when we don't look too closely". I think that this is a reflect of the traditional epistemological approach to physical reality, where science is perceived as a sequence of approximations to one supposed fundamental true.

          Classical physics is not a myth, but a genuine branch of physics. From a purely theoretical point of view, classical physics would be considered a limiting case (h --> 0) of the underlying quantum physics. From an experimental point of view, classical physics is equivalent to quantum physics in those cases where the difference between both is less than the experimental error. In this modern epistemology, the word "approximation" would be used only for the cases where the difference is detectable.

          [Nikolic] Some Remarks on a Nongeometrical Interpretation of Gravity and the Flatness Problem 1999: Gen. Rel. and Grav., 31(8), 1211-1217. Nikolic, Hrvoje.

            • [deleted]

            Bang on. One was worried for a while that you weren't going to do it. But happily you did.

            Another Aristotlism: "That which moves does not move by counting." Of course we can't be absolutely certain about that, but he was probably right.

            Sorry about your father-in-law. I've been there.

              Hi Lev,

              I'm not sure I understand the second part of your comment - unless, of course, you agree with my conclusion (continuity is merely a mathematical "ruse").

              But I take "discrete" to be the opposite of continuous. In my essay I hint at (and would have expanded on, given more space) the fact that there are different notions of these things - some mathematical, some physical.

              Ian

              Hmmm. Why does his equation negate a particle model for gravity? Coulomb's law is similar and yet we have a very successful particle model for electrostatics.

              Thanks Mike. It was quite a shock and we're still grappling with it (especially my kids who were very close to their "opa").

              Anyway, as you well know I'm not a huge fan of the multiverse concept so I'm not sure Deutsch's argument resonates with me, but I believe I said something similar on my blog.

              Nevertheless, it's good to have healthy debate on the issue!

              Thanks Roger.

              I guess I don't have a problem with "bad experimental technique" in mathematics because, to me, mathematics is not an experimental science. I think our mistake is in assuming that mathematics represents some kind of universal "truth." I have no trouble accepting the fact that we can have infinitely countable and uncountable sets and other oddities in mathematics. Mathematics is either right or wrong, in a sense. It's more black and white than science which is fine. We just have to remember that science is about modeling and sometimes our models contradict one another. Mathematics, unlike science, is entirely self-consistent.

              Ian

              Juan,

              Thanks for your comments. I have a few replies.

              First, regarding Robinson, I certainly am no fan of his and I did not cite him in such a way as to say I supported his conclusion. I simply cited him in order to point out that someone had attempted to "vindicate" Newton and Leibniz in recent decades.

              I agree that time is a complicated and funky problem (and I'm looking forward to the FQXi conference in August when we'll be discussing the nature of time in greater detail).

              Here is what I mean about the uncertainty relations when applied to a radar gun. A radar gun relies on a measurable change in the wavelength of the light it emits and then reabsorbs. Since the wavelength is directly related to the energy, as Delta t goes to zero, Delta E must go to infinity by the uncertainty relation. But Delta E *can't* be infinite if the radar gun is to work (it *must* be finite). Therefore, Delta t must have a non-zero lower bound.

              One of my points is that if we tried to truly measure quantities exactly and in a truly continuous manner, we need to have more and more accurate measurements. But as we make more and more accurate measurements, we eventually leave the classical realm and end up in the quantum realm and the quantum realm is constrained by the uncertainty relations. This limits our knowledge to discrete "chunks." So our knowledge of the universe is limited to discrete "chunks."

              As for the old chemists, they certainly may have believed in the discrete nature of matter, but did they necessarily think that the universe itself was necessarily discrete? I seriously doubt that. The atomic hypothesis applies to matter. I am unaware of it having been applied to the universe as a whole by anyone between the Ancient Greeks and the twentieth (maybe late nineteenth?) century.

              Regarding the non-geometric interpretation of gravity, while there certainly are non-geometric interpretations of gravity, they are by no means mainstream. The geometric interpretation of gravity has been the paradigm since Einstein. Nevertheless, I certainly was not defending that interpretation. In fact, that was my point. I don't like that interpretation because it is difficult to reconcile with quantization (despite what the field theorists think).

              I am familiar with how quantum field theory handles quantization and localization. In fact there is a rich history of foundational discussions surrounding this but, alas, I was limited to 25000 characters and I know how Dirac viewed it. But it is still a fact that QFT is built on top of QM and thus includes its postulates and thus its limitations, i.e., as different as they may be, they do *not* contradict one another.

              You say, "I think that this is a reflect of the traditional epistemological approach to physical reality, where science is perceived as a sequence of approximations to one supposed fundamental true." I don't know if I agree that what I'm saying is necessarily a reflection of this. In fact, assuming that classical physics is just an approximation and that the world is really quantum only seems to allow for *multiple* truths, in my opinion. After all, the quantum world is a strange place.

              The reason I say classical physics is a "myth" is because as soon as you start to make classical measurements more and more accurate (to more and more decimal places) you will eventually bump into the quantum realm. In other words, you can't have perfectly accurate measuring apparatuses without getting into quantum mechanics. Just think about how we "define" the meter now. It used to be a rod in Paris, but then copying it introduced small defects. The only way anyone could see to it that the meter was the same everywhere was to redefine it in such a way that it can only be measured in ways that involve quantum mechanics! (The current definition is based on the speed of light, which is classical, but all laboratory measurements of the speed of light run up against quantum uncertainties and quantum photon counting statistics.)

              Ian

              • [deleted]

              Yes, Ian, I agree.

              But the situation with the "discrete" is quite different: first of all, we don't have a definitive concept/model of the discrete, and second, I believe, when we get one, it will not be the same mathematical "ruse".

              • [deleted]

              Dear Dr. Ian Durham,

              Could you please say something succinct to make clear why there is this distinction:

              "What does it mean for something to be physically continuous? Does it mean the object can't be broken down into individual parts or does it simply mean the individual parts are intrinsically linked?

              For example: A line is continuous; however, it might vary several ways in width and direction along its length. This is the simplest example I thought of to question the distinction between 'individual parts' and 'intrinsically linked'. Personally, I see the interaction of particles of matter to be analogous to, though not nearly so simple, as this example portrays.

              I assume that there is a distinction that is not properly represented by my example. I would appreciate a combined mathematician's and physicists viewpoint. What do you think?

              James

                • [deleted]

                Dear Ian,

                I decided I should make it clear that I do not understand how an example of a line broken into pieces and separated completely would have any relevance to what is occurring in our universe. Any clarity that you can offer would be appreciated.

                James

                James,

                So, my statement there simply leaves open the possibility that we might be able to define some slightly different "version" of continuity. So, for instance, perhaps a pair of entangled particles, even if separated by light-years, could somehow be considered continuous. Personally, I don't think so, but I could imagine someone trying to make that argument.

                Ian

                Maybe. I mean, I think I see where you're going, but it's quite a novel idea, if I'm understanding you correctly.

                Personally, I don't think discreteness is a "mathematical ruse." I only think that about continuity. Or, rather, I think our knowledge about the continuity of the universe itself is a mathematical ruse. It is entirely possible that the universe *is* continuous, but we simply can't determine if it is or not because we're limited by a discrete "lens," as it were.