Hello Alan,

Thanks for your kind remarks. The Archimedes screw graviton is a new one on me. I once had the idea that an electron might be like the seam of a baseball, but one of my profs informed me that was probably erroneous, as it would give the electron a quadrupole moment which is not observed.

Ergo; I would have to consider what the induced effects of your proposed model might be, before I pronounce it sound or unsound. On the other hand; it has been said that if one cannot explain something to a bartender - or at least to the average librarian - then one has not truly understood it.

So I wish you the best of luck.

Regards,

Jonathan

Thank you Albert,

It is my observation that the first experimental disproofs of Aristotelian logic and the excluded middle principle appeared more than 100 years ago now. The excluded middle principle is only a law for some limited subset of real events, in any case.

My everyday experience would suggest that the middle can hardly ever be completely excluded, and that people are over-eager to classify things as either/or decisions, when really it's a weighted average multiple choice question. And of course the idea of dialectical analysis is based on the idea that for each thesis and antithesis, there is a synthesis which includes common causes or elements of both opposing views.

So I am not enamored of the view that excluded middle arguments apply in all cases, and I tend to become amused by this sort of extreme reductionism - when it is used inappropriately. Figure 1 in the above comment shows the either/or case of a beam splitter, while Figure 2 shows how in the Mach-Zehnder interferometer having both paths available allows a photon to maintain a coherent superposition of two choices.

However; the outcome is not the same as adding the discrete contributions to the results for either one path. If that were the case, one would expect both detectors to light up half of the time. But instead, only one detector receives photons - when both paths are available. So; while the result is unambiguous - it is not what Aristotle would predict.

I also attended a lecture by Marni Sheppeard at FFP10, where she was making compelling arguments for the utility of Ternary logic in Quantum Mechanics, using category theory as a basis. Another lecture at that same conference by Marc Lachieze-Rey showed how a lot of the Maths used in Physics could be derived from category-theoretic primitives.

So I would also hesitate to agree that we would have to throw all of the great Math out. Only the derivation would change.

All the Best,

Jonathan

  • [deleted]

Hi Jonathan,

Welcome to the essay contest! I agree that reality must be comprised of both natures: discrete and continuous, in order for us to observe reality these ways. I agree with your description of the (possible?) Multiverse. I agree that any possible extra Universes must be discrete rather than a continuum smear, and I think that Scales (and possibly Lucas numbers) explain and demand this feature.

I also liked your mention of the buckyball - it is one of my prefered geometries for the Black Hole "singularity", and the buckyball has some similar symmetries with Lisi's E8 Gosset lattice approach to a TOE. Also, two nested buckyballs have a smooth homotopy with a lattice-like near-torus that may model the "singularity" of a rotating Black Hole. I stare at my soccer ball on a regular basis. One of these days, I should get two identical soccer balls, cut them up, and reattach them into a torus...

I enjoyed your comparison with the human brain. I guess that means that my left-side prefers a Bottom-Up approach to understanding reality, and my right-side prefers a Top-Down approach to understanding reality. My wife is an artist, and I always thought that she was more right-brained than left. It is funny how some of my abstract articulations of nature and mathematics look a little bit like art...

I have fun working on both the Top-Down and Bottom-Up approaches, its the union in the middle that confuses me...

Good Luck in the contest and Have Fun!

Dr. Cosmic Ray

    Hi Jonathan,

    I very much enjoyed reading your paper. It's refreshingly different and highly readable. Thanks for your kind words over at my paper.

    Best Wishes,

    Willard Mittelman

      • [deleted]

      Hi, Jonathan

      I liked your essay, and there are infact many things that are common for both of us. You point to only a few basic things, but I try to link in more facts in my essay, /topic/938.

      In biology there exist many wievs of the lateralization,and that is the reason I am a bit cautious about talking too much of it. This example given by Jill Bolte Taylor shows however in a beautiful way onthe specialization of the hemispheres, shown also in their structure. This point, that function is seen in the structure is an important one. Histologically we have the Broadmans areas, that all are different structurally, thus also functionally,AND PHYSICALLY. This should be obvious to everyone.

      I like your analogy - 'surfing the wave'.I have used the same:) Thanks also for the links to quantum descreatness (Zeh),I have looked for those facts.

      I see the Nature as having different solutions for different kinds of matter or energy (Einsteins formula), but the material paths are split. Thus we get quantum 'matter' as waves and non-locality, classic matter as fixed waves mostly, that is particles, and living, reactive matter as intermediate, consisting of both classic, decoherent matter, and coherent quantum 'matter'.

      In theorethical physics of today the unique charachters of living matter should be recognized, so this highly interesting bransh of physics can be properly evolved. It can contribute much to the vision of what is our proper reality, and also in the hunt for the Higgs boson. Living matter is not just complexity and decoherence.

        Thanks for the consideration of the idea, you won't regret it I'm sure. As to the bartender analogy, I have a friend who works as a greenkeeper (Runty), and he's my sounding board for the man-in-the-street. Best of luck.

        Alan

        Thanks so much Ray!

        I still have to get to your essay. There are a bunch of good ones this time. Knowing your past work, your contest paper is likely to be a lot of fun to read, and promote deep thought at the same time.

        Yes; it's pretty much clear that in any multiverse scenario the congealing of a universe out of the quantum soup sets up wavefunction periodicities which span the islands of form.

        Thanks for Buckyball commendation, but I think it was Zeilinger's choice. A natural one though, as it has wavefunction periodicities too, and therefore a lot of 'quantumness' available to detect.

        I like the Buckyball/E8 connections. Way cool stuff!

        Bottom-up vs top-down is how the authors (MacNeilage, et al.) of the Scientific American article on the evolution of lateral brains describe the split. There is a lot to say on that one, however.

        Good luck to you!

        Jonathan

        Thank you Sir!

        It is a pleasure to be able to share my thoughts here. I look forward to reading your paper, and I'll be sure to share some thought on it too.

        Good luck!

        Jonathan

        Thanks so much Ulla,

        I greatly look forward to reading your paper. And I think you are right, that there will be many common ideas to highlight and discuss. I've read some of H. Dieter Zeh's papers several times now. I'm slowly developing some proficiency with the applicable Maths, and the wild idea of the pure form of decoherence theory is finally soaking in.

        When first I read the 2 Zeh papers I cited early on, I thought they were tongue in cheek exercises to show that the extreme case is workable. But correspondence with Zeh and Joos has strongly disabused me of this notion, and I am convinced instead that "discreteness is an illusion" is a core idea of their thesis.

        I must get on with things now, but I will leave some comments after reading your essay.

        The best of luck!

        Jonathan

        • [deleted]

        I think the discreateness is a result of entanglement. Classic matter would then be quantized waves or energies. This means the matter is regulated from entanglement, and the matter itself is an illusion:)

        There should be much more discussion on the quantization and the descreateness. After all 'all the physics is seen in the double slit experiment'?

        Ulla.

        • [deleted]

        HIHIHI Jonathan in fact you like all, it is that, a real gentlemen..it is well, lol ...and of course dear thinkers(Ray and you)forget these supidities of multiverses and otehrs computing pseudos ideas.

        Similarities yes of course and of course a string is a sphere, the extradim are spheres and the multispheres also ....it is that the strategy.....pseudos similarities.Please are you real rationalists or what ???? what are your books, really I ask me if you make sciences sometimes.I am frank, all that becomes ironic.

        You bad superimpose dear friends, really. it is incredibly incredible to see these extrapolations, it is not a lack of knowledges, no a lack of generality simply.Skillings but lost in an ocean of confusions.

        Regards

        Steve

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        I become crazzy dear friends,be sure .I see small green people in my small garden.You know I become tired by the net thus REVOLUTION BEFORE HIHII

        Steve

        Hello Again All,

        Thanks for your further comments, Ulla.

        Thank you for stopping by Steve. Be assured that I do not just sit on fences. I take up one view, or one side of an argument, then vigorously argue the opposite sometimes. I tend to argue the opposite of anyone's strongly polarized view, just to see what they will say, but in this contest they asked a question where only an encompassing answer would do.

        However, your comments are always welcome.

        Regards,

        Jonathan

        A special added note..

        Some of you may be aware of my interest in aiding the Environment, saving the Earth from Climate disasters, and the like.

        I have recently joined something called the Azimuth Project which was founded by FQXi's John Baez. If you have ideas or skills which might benefit a group of scientists and engineers who are trying to find ways to save the planet, please consider joining that conversation too.

        I share the notion of others there, that if enough bright people toss some of the difficult environmental problems around, we might come up with some good solutions that haven't been tried yet. However; so many problems today, like the recent oil spill in the Gulf, demand a multi-disciplinary approach to fully solve. But corporations and governments are way too insular to invite collaboration.

        Please check out how the Azimuth Project is trying to help.

        Regards,

        Jonathan

          • [deleted]

          Jonathan,

          I have to say we have some very similar ideas, but yours are more professionally presented, so how did I get an 8 rating in the public voting and you get a 2? Life ain't fair.

          Most of these essays tie my brain up in knots, so it is nice to read one which does present a coherent overview and not tightly wound around a particular observation.

          You do make a few observations to which I might offer some additional thoughts.

          For one thing, the problem with the dialectic view of fundamental dichotomies is the idea there exists a coherent synthesis, somewhere in the middle and this overlooks the extent to which opposing views are themselves wholistic opposites. Consider taking pictures of a car. The view from the right and left side are subjectively whole, while a picture of the interior wouldn't be a synthesis of those opposing views. Same with top down, vs bottom up considerations. There is no happy medium. The perspective from the bottom can be all the way to the top, as the view from the top can be all the way to the bottom and yet they are entirely different views of the same reality.

          Now consider your point about everything being energy. This is true, but energy expands! What is the balance? Mass contracts. Energy is analog, while mass is digital. Consider light. It expands out as a field effect, waves, if you prefer, but when we measure it in relation to a physical detector, it has collapsed to a definable unit, a photon.

          You might say energy is bottom up, radiating out as energy. While mass is top down, collapsing as digital units. So all of reality can be viewed from both directions: All expanding out versus gravity collapsing everything to point. This gets to cosmology and the fact we view the entire universe as expanding, yet this expansion is balanced by gravity as observably flat space, but we still have this model of expansion. To use an analogy, it would be like looking across a Merry-go-round and seeing that while the near and far sides go in opposite directions and seem balanced in their actions, since the near side appears larger to us, there must be greater motion in the direction it is going. I think we will eventually discard the entire Big Bang cosmology and view the universe as a correlation between expanding energy and collapsing mass. There are a number of essays which touch on this in various ways, Constantinos Ragazas, , Israel Perez, as well as some comments and footnotes from Dan Benedict come to mind. Mine attacks it directly, but this is a bit of a Hail Mary, as there is a small probability cosmologists will discover galaxies older then the presumed age of the universe, by the time this contest is finished. The current record holder is 13.2 billion lightyears away and it takes quite a bit of imagination to think a galaxy large enough to be seen at that distance could have coalesced out of the Inflationary field in 500 million years. Given that Inflation presumably expanded space to the degree it appears flat, than any gravitational sources would have to be equally stretched out, since gravity is half the equation of balance between expansion and contraction. Since it takes 225 million years for our galaxy to make one rotation, this would be like saying the time between the invention of the wheel and the production of the Model T is equivalent to driving around NYC 2 and a half times.

          As for time, I've been making an argument somewhat similar to the idea that while the right brain exists in the now, the left brain registers the digital function of past, present future.

          While there is only the physical present, the activity within it is constantly changing form, as it flows around and thus the process of time is the future becoming the past, as opposed to the present moving from past to future. This is actually the more fundamental process, even if the serial events are the basis of our rational thought processes. Much like we perceive the sun moving across the sky from east to west, the fundamental process is of the earth rotating west to east.

          The point here is that time is an effect of motion, not the basis for it and as such it is similar to temperature. One is the scalar level of activity, while the other is the serial change caused by that activity. As such they reflect the two sides of the brain. The rational side is a clock, as it measures cause and effect, while the emotional, intuitive side is a thermostat that registers and reacts to scalar levels of energy and quantities of information carried by that energy.

          In the top down, vs bottom up view, there are various juxtapositions going on here. Energy does go from past to future, as it leaves old forms and radiates into new forms. Thus it is bottom up, much as life and politics, etc. are constantly shedding old orders and organisms and moving on to new life and subsequent forms. Meanwhile the forms move from future to past, as they coalesce out of energy and continue to accumulate more, until reaching a peak and radiating it away again. Whether it is an individual life being born, growing up and then old and dying, or a day dawning, warming up as the sun passes over head, then cooling down and fading away, as the sun moves on to the next day.

          The point here is that everything is ultimately composed of energy and so it is the constant. That which is present. Any perceptible change is the configurations and they go future to past. Even though we view past events as cause for future ones, this is based on examination of prior events. The physical reality is that total input into any event cannot be known prior to its occurrence, since input does travel from opposite directions at the speed of light. Thus total cause for any event is in the future, until it occurs, then the effect, the event, recedes into the past.

          Since time is an effect of motion, there cannot be a dimensionless point in time, as that would freeze the motion creating the effect of time. Basically like taking a picture with the shutter speed set at zero. Without that concept of a dimensionless point in time, any object, whether subatomic particle or automobile, cannot be logically separated from its context, as it has no absolute position.

          This goes a long way towards solving many quantum issues. If time is an effect of collapsing future probabilities into past circumstances, not a fundamental dimension or flow from past to future, there is no need for multiworlds to explain the relationship between deterministic principles and fundamental probabilities.

          I don't know how resistant those judging this contest will be to ideas which question current models, but if enough of us "start protesting," maybe they might take notice.

            • [deleted]

            Hello Jonathan! I haven't read your paper yet but definitely will soon. I had hoped to participate in this year's contest but other things got in the way. In any case, I'm replying because I am very interested in the Azimuth Code Project after reading about it, but the forum link where would-be contributors are told to sign up doesn't seem to work. So if you could let me know some other way to signal interest I'll do so. Good to be in contact with you again, Owen

            Hi Owen,

            Great to hear from you! I just sent an e-mail to John Baez recommending he approve you for Azimuth forum membership. Follow the link here to get a MathForge account. Then follow the rest of instructions on this page, from step 3 on. Good Luck!

            I'll come back here with more detailed instructions on the morrow, if you need them.

            All the Best,

            Jonathan

            Wow! Thanks John..

            I'll have to read your detailed comments on the morrow. A bit too bleary-eyed right now. But I appreciate the time taken to read and to share your thoughts. I shall give them some consideration when I am again awake.

            All the best,

            Jonathan

            Thank you very much John Merryman!

            I found your comments engaging, and many of them were right on. Yes energy (as radiation) expands, while mass contracts. That is a wonderful dichotomy, to which I alluded but did not make explicit. One must be careful, however, to say - as radiation - because some folks are quite adamant that mass-energy and radiant energy are the same.

            I like what you have to say on left-right and top-down vs bottom-up processes. It's interesting to note, though, that the bottom-up story is normally associated with sub-atomic particles linking up into nuclei, then atoms, molecules, and so on. Your comments about linear time vs timeless perception is dead on. That is precisely what creates the 'digital' perspective.

            I have a friend Evan Pritchard who wrote a book called "No Word for Time," speaking about the traditional Algonquins. Evan's Mic Mac Elder friend Albert talks about clock time as White Man's craziness. Is he wrong? They argue that things take as long as they take. And we call it Turing's theorem. In any case; I'll be sure to take in your essay.

            All the Best,

            Jonathan

              • [deleted]

              Jonathan,

              Readable and enjoyable. It covered the universe of science in a way that will make others think they may want to join it.

              I think you had a very good time in Paris!

              Don Limuti