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Dear Burton,

Having enjoyed reading your nice and even somewhat programmatic essay, I would have just a few minor and perhaps distracting questions besides my main desire to derive the consequences you are unfortunately just alluding to.

You concluded: "The problems arising from a mathematics that cannot duplicate the natural world would be subtle and possibly not contentious, if only we were

aware of its faults and planned accordingly. Unfortunately, our mathematics reflects our core behaviors; that of sociality, categorization, generalization and subitization. We draw lines around similar item, call them the same, project the traits of the average on all members, decide if a category is larger or smaller than another, and then ardently discuss what we've done; creating memes that now circle the globe in seconds. Changing our core behaviors is not likely to happen, changing our mathematics to better conform to reality is possible."

I made three suggestions for a better mathematics and for better interpretation of mathematical tools in physics, respectively.

You will find my essays via topics 369, 527, and 833 .

Regards,

Eckard

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    I read your essay with interest. We apparently share a basic interest in how the world of nature and humans work and that there is a difference.

    I particularly liked your reference to time's arrow based on there being a back ground.

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    Hello dear Burton J Smith,

    Ver beautiful essay ful of rationality. The sortings and the synchro, we ignore indeed the false foundamentals.

    I liked these words ,it is so important, I think that all the lost mathematicians must read that.

    When you say about the universe finite and its series,it is so true,

    after all these maths are there for helping physics.

    Good luck in this contest

    Steve

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      Dear Burton, What a refreshing paper, both in content and style. I too have long suspected a similar conclusion. During my PhD studies we ran statistics on all sorts of questions concerning livestock: their productivity, nutritional requirements, etc. We got some really great "answers" - at least great on paper. Attempting to apply the results back to an individual animal was a whole different ball game - usually ending in complete frustration. Each individual animal (system) was too unique with too many variables. This "problem" with individuality has resulted, in part, in the idea of cloning animals to ensure a consistent animal, which has resulted in individual animals that have a similar phenotype but are in fact, quite unique.

      The same difficulties of today's mathematics are found in the form of modeling. As you are certainly aware, models do well to explain the past, but have a huge confidence error in predicting the future. In dealing with climate change, models are able to tell us that in certain areas in certain seasons, the weather will get warmer and dryer or cooler and wetter, but little else. And after a particular weather event, it is impossible to say that the event was the result of climate change. My point is, without getting into a discussion on climate change or animals per se, that mathematics is missing something very fundamental - that the individual (system) is operating with little concern for the mean.

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        Aloha Steve:

        Thank you for reading and your kind comments - they are appreciated.

        Sincerely

        Burt Smith

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        Aloha Eckard Blumschein:

        In Hawaiian the word aloha has several meanings, but all in the traditional sense of warmth. I spent 20 years in the islands working with locals, and the aloha has endured.

        I finally located your essay; Continuation Causes Superior but Unrealistic Ambiguity, #833. I could not find numbers 369 or 527. I searched using your last name, but to no avail. Either I was going at it all wrong or the FQXi search engine has some limitations, it presented other essays and while of interest, were not germane to the reason of my search. I read your essay and the discussion with various critics and found myself, contrarily to my initial expectations, agreeing with your major premises. I have no comments concerning the higher mathematics, which I usually comprehend, however, I'm not sufficiently cognizant of that rarified abstraction to criticize, much less make suggestions.

        On the issues where we agree (more or less), I've arrived from a different starting point than you have (this is an assumption, based on your Biography and your essay). I learned systems theory from several sources: practical experience, books, the late Howard Odum (system's ecology) as one of my mentors, 20 years of conducting numerous experiments and trials with willing ranchers, and visits to over 2000 operating ranches in North and Central America, Down Under and the Marianas.

        Agriculture is not the natural world, but it is an ecotone between the natural world and the human abstract one we call civilization or society; especially so for pasture based livestock operations. Back in the early 1970's it dawned on me that present day math simply doesn't work on complex, dynamical systems, especially if living organisms are involved for the simple reason that they cannot be divided without destroying the system. Since I left Hawaii I've been attempting to make sense of "why math?" It had to be something that occurred early in our history and it had to have survival value. Fortunately, various cognitive scientist and anthropologists supplied the missing parts and strong suggestions. This essay of mine has been a long time arriving, but even so it was hurried and pruned for this event.

        I would appreciate any comments you might care to make.

        Sincerely

        Burt Smith

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        Dear Burt Smith,

        My essays 369 and 527 belong to the 1st and 2nd FQXi contest, respectively. Goto previous contests and then to read /discuss (not to winners).

        You wrote: "changing our mathematics to better conform to reality is possible". Shouldn't you have an idea how? My suggestions are definitely hurting. While I need no warm words, high scores might attract helpful attention. Even more I appreciate factual criticism.

        Perhaps I should read your essay more carefully. What do you mean with Janus? I just know him as having two faces.

        Regards,

        Eckard

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        Burt,

        Your statement "Without equalities mathematical operands, with the exception of addition and subtraction, can not function." I do not believe that even addition and subtraction are exceptions see http://www.zenophysics.com/DWT/17__Math-Physics.html

        Thanks for your paper.

        Don Limuti

          Dear Burt Smith,

          Maybe, you have no idea how to change mathematics to better conform to reality. This would explain why you did not yet respond.

          I would nonetheless appreciate if you could say more about Janus, the Roman god of door, standing for January, for in and out, for left and right. See my recent reply to Doug Bundy at 833 as to admit that my request is not unfounded.

          Regards,

          Eckard

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          Aloha Burt Smith,

          You have chance lol it is probably beautiful there.

          You are welcome, sincerely

          Steve

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          Aloha Jenniver L.

          Quite so; few individuals wish to be average. However, most like to know where the average is so they can decide what, if anything, to do about it. Since the average comes with a consensual agreement as to its characteristics most individuals can find enough wiggle room to shift themselves from above to below or vice versa, depending on subject matter.

          Outliers, or the "lunatic fringe" as its sometimes called, present a different situation as they are events or items that are not suppose to occur with any regularity; yet often do. They are typically viewed as an inconvenience at best and disruptive at worst. But the fact remains it is

          the "lunatic fringe" that is responsible for many, if not most, of the major changes, good or ill, that occur.

          Sincerely

          Burt Smith

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          Aloha Don:

          One can add up the number of items in a junk yard and compare the total to the total of items in another junk yard and determine which one has more items. Not a great deal of information is obtained but of some value, especially if one is in the junk yard cleaning up business.

          Haven't looked at your suggested site, but will.

          Thanks for your comments

          Sincerely

          Burt Smith

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          Burt,

          Yes in math 1plus1 = 2 This corresponds to the addition of your Junk items. Your use of the term "item" indicates that you have turned the junk into numbers.

          But in physical reality I have reason to believe that 1 lb. of junk plus 1 lb. of junk > 2 lb. of junk.

          I believe there is a big divide between physics and math. I also think we are poking at the same thing. And thanks for your reply.

          Don Limuti

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          Aloha Eckard:

          Believe it or not - I do have other demands on my time.

          A brief discussion of the two faces of Janus and why it was applied to mathematics was pruned, along with several other items, so as to remain within the character limits of this contest. I had hoped that the discussion of pragmatic mathematics as opposed to the theoretical would suffice. I'm often wrong about such things.

          You are correct in saying that I did not offer an alternative solution to mathematics as we presently know it. It would delight me no end to say that I had a solution, and for a slight consideration I would be willing to share it - but I don't.

          I came to distrust mathematics in the 70's. The more I've worked with natural and ecotone systems (agriculture) the more I became convinced there was something basically wrong with math when applied to the natural world. As I mentioned in my essay, division in the natural world is very messy and is akin to death for any complex system; hence, it is not a proper operand for understanding the natural world. Multiplication as duplicator in addition is feasible, as is addition and subtraction. However, the information obtained is limited as to which pile is larger/smaller than another.

          In your essay you have rejected analog computation as being out of date and too noisy. My experiences with analog computation in the 70's was that it was superior for modeling systems than were the digital behemoths of that time period. The vast sums that have been spent enhancing digital calculations make comparisons today difficult at best. Yet, there are groups working with analog; e.g. the Silicon Brain group at Stanford.(Ref, #54 in my essay.)

          Other possibilities have to do with the way life changes over time, a slow morphing of form. Rivers flow and carry along all sorts of things besides water molecules; then there's the various forces found throughout our corner of the universe (electromagnetic, gravitation, etc.) and of course time. An orchestra combines the sounds from a large number of instruments into a unique sound - the composer starts the process and the conductor adds the finishing touches. Electromagnetic waves are capable of transporting such information vast distances; what we know about the reaches of the universe are carried on such waves. Are these, more natural (dare I say analog) phenomena, being investigated as possible calculation mediums? I hope so. The mathematics we have gets close on occasion - but close only counts in horseshoes.

          Sincerely

          Burt

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          Aloha Don:

          Sorry, but the use of the word item does not automatically imply numbers. Item has several definitions, one of which is "an object of attention, concern or interest" which is the meaning I intended, and I thought was clear from the context - apparently it wasn't.

          Adding a measurement (noun) to a numeral, I believe reduces the numeral to an adjective, and the onus of accuracy then falls on the noun, pounds in this case, to guarantee that "a pound is a pound the world around." Since a pound is, by definition, a fraction of the standard kilogram kept in France, the ultimate onus is on that platinum-iridium chunk - which I understand has loss a little weight since it was first cast. Not that it will change anything as there's a greater difference in the weight or an item from mountain top to sea level than in the few micrograms the standard lost.

          And yes, I think we are, more-or-less, poking at the same things.

          I have read the items at your web site. You've obviously spent a great deal of thought and time in the formulation of the theory. You're to be congratulated.

          Sincerely

          Burt Smith

          If one can't step into the same river twice, one can walk with the river - go with the flow. It may not be exactly the same river one steps into each time but it's certainly closer than if one proceeds cross-wise.

          Burt,

          Wise words above. Your approach is different than mine. Mine borrows from models in positing the point of analogue reality. Yours less so.

          Jim Hoover

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            Your analogy of natural flows and walking with the river is interesting. Could you expand a bit on this and how using a mathematics that flows with nature could alter science as we know it? How would this be different than the results of today's science which has it's own so called flow, a flow of continuously asking the same or similar question to demonstrate repeatability and achieve consensus? Would the results remain similar, but our perception, understanding, and use of the results be what is profoundly different?

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              Dear Burt,

              Thank you for responding honestly. I agree on that a mathematical reduction of the the whole world, the wetware of the brain, and of other highly complex systems is inappropriate. I also agree with your insight that there is effectively no equality and no absolute symmetry in nature. Nonetheless I consider mathematics necessary and worth improvement.

              Regards,

              Eckard

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              Aloha Jim

              Thank your for your comments, they are appreciated.

              In your essay you discuss different models, apparently all digital, which are said to be analogues of real events. I had a little trouble with the apparent interchange of analog with analogue. And while my dictionary gives that as a major definition, I have always thought of analog as a flow, but not an infinite flow as some contend. For if the universe is finite then nothing in it can be infinite - or so it would appear. Which raise a point, if flows are not infinite then is the difference between discrete and analog a measurement, time, or both? A bullet is a discrete item, a machine-gun spits out a stream of them, but they are still discrete items. So would an analog item in the same context be a long spear, lance or sword; or would it have to be much longer? At what point could we draw a line and say this is discrete and that is analog? Perhaps that's the whole point of this contest; to get one further away from the box than they presently are.

              I agree with some of your positions, such as models depict whatever hypothesis one wants to pose. Just as statistics, experiments, or argument can be presented to favor any preconceived viewpoint. But that's the beauty of living in the abstract world we've constructed for ourselves. I disagree that doing more of what we've done in the past is going to be much help. We need a new tool, we need a math that better approximates nature; and that math may very well require a machine as its foundation.

              You mentioned that you have a column; is it on the web?

              We've enjoyed our stay in your state and expect to return.

              Sincerely

              Burt Smith

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              Aloha Anon: Thank you for your comments. You've asked three good questions.

              Q. Your analogy of natural flows and walking with the river is interesting. Could you expand a bit on this and how using a mathematics that flows with nature could alter science as we know it?

              A. It is my contention that the very foundation of modern mathematics is built upon axioms and postulates that have little to no relationship to the natural world and are, at best approximations and at worse, misleading. Mathematics is based on discrete numerals; there is nothing fuzzy about a 4 or 9; because integers are defined to be constructed from monads which are defined to be equivalent to one another and hence discrete. There is nothing fuzzy about a meter - all meters are defined to be equal to one another. However, nature doesn't define anything to be equal to one another; everything changes with time. You are not the same person today you were yesterday, and you won't be the same person tomorrow. We don't skip, jump or hop from one scene to the next like a movie frame; we morph or flow, a continual, analog process. This is not unique to living organisms, the physical world does the same, but at a slower pace; the ebb and flow of tides, climate, even rocks disappear grain by grain until a pebble is left, and then that too is gone. At what point does a rock become a pebble, the pebble a grain of sand, and the grain a molecule? The lines we draw around things in order to call them the same are artificial boundaries that have meaning only in the human world, not in the natural one.

              A river was first used as a metaphor by Heraclitus, and later by Plato. As a flow on earth it's a nice example, all sort of things can be carried along, some stopping for a spell, but eventually all ending up at some far off objective. As far as stepping in the same river twice, well as far as most are concerned one can do just that. We see the river, we give it a name, Mississippi River - sometimes it's turbulent, wild, other times placid and calm - but it's still the Mississippi River. We ignore the fact that as we stand in the shallows of the Mississippi River the water, and all that its carrying, swirling about our feet, is constantly changing. Hopefully, the concept of flows will make us more aware of the things that are continuously changing rather than concentrating on the river, which changes little from day to day and hardly at all in memory.

              Q. How would this be different than the results of today's science which has it's own so called flow, a flow of continuously asking the same or similar question to demonstrate repeatability and achieve consensus?

              A. It often appears that science does the same thing when replicating a previous experiment so as to verify or refute a previous one; and therein lies the rub. If an experiment cannot be replicated then how can one verify its veracity? Experiments utilizing inanimate objects can, usually, be replicated to a high degree and statistics applied. First, because inanimate objects typically change slowly over time, thus their similarities do likewise. So in a laboratory, where the many variables that thrive outdoors can be, more-or-less, controlled, one can flip a coin many, many times before anything different than a head or tail appear. However, take the experiment outdoors, over a mud puddle or sand box and, assuming a sea gull or dog doesn't grab the coin before it hits the ground, a third choice becomes apparent; the coin will occasionally land on its edge and remain so. Even physical experiments are not devoid of location.

              Life might be considered as the physical world on steroids. Many of the same elements are involved but in unique ways. But life, unlike inanimate objects, has all sorts of behaviors that a coin can only aspire to. So obtaining the same level of repeatability with systems involving living organisms as with inanimate objects is much more difficult if not impossible. Without getting into the numerous ways statistics can be and are misused, suffice to say that the sample size and uniformity are quite important as to its validity; as mentioned in my essay the use of a sub-sub population class (undergraduates) to define human behavior. Most studies of natural attributes, humans in particular, end up with bulk of the sample grouped around a norm, with lesser numbers trailing off to either side; a distribution in the shape of a bell curve. We concentrate on the norm and those closely surrounding it, and all but ignore the outliers. Humans are unique, but some are more unique than others; for example, about one in sixty thousand of us, have the heart and other asymmetric organs on the opposite side. What medication, or procedure, might work for the majority might be fatal or un-performing for the outliers, or vice versa. If the sample is too similar then the results are only going to apply to those who are similar to the sample, and maybe not even then. Because there are near endless ways to group a sample, studies continue that appear to be addressing the same thing but are, in effect, looking at how it affects a different group. Soils are notoriously variable, back in the late 1940's and early '50's fertilizer studies were quite common; apparently little has been settled as they're still being conducted.

              Q. Would the results remain similar, but our perception, understanding, and use of the results be what is profoundly different?

              A. That would depend upon the system under discussion. Laboratory studies, where many variables can be controlled, would likely remain the same. Field studies would be different. Good, knowledgeable managers can generally move a complex, dynamical system towards, but not necessarily reach, a well thought-out and reasonable objective through continuous monitoring and timely reaction to inevitable changes - something that present mathematics cannot do. What the manager cannot foretell are all the incidental details that will be occurring as the system moves through time. I suspect that utilizing an analog-mathematics will increase the chances of getting closer to the objectives and will likely fill in more of the details. Our present economic system is based on a linear mathematics, which when applied to the natural world, is essentially that 'take and run' philosophy that helped us get to the agricultural age; it also got us to the present situations so eloquently discussed in the daily media.