Dear Armin,

You wrote: ''I would be grateful if you could point me to any place in my essay where I mentioned anything about any kind of interactions''.

The absence of this conclusion in your theory is a flaw in your theory because it is logically self-evident. You wrote: In order to transition from three to two dimensions, a direction in space has to vanish. There is a way of postulating a scale at which space vanishes while area is preserved which avoids these difficulties: we assume that at that scale not only space vanishes, but spacetime itself is reduced by one dimension''. Therefore ''all objects of atomic and nuclear proportion have in common is that, compared to objects on our scale, they are vastly more two-dimensional''.

Consequently, if a direction in space has to vanish, it is self-evident that a particle can interact in two dimensions only, because one does not feel other dimensions. It is self-evident, it is a right logical conclusion and I'm surprised that you missed this inevitable conclusion in your theory. For example, imagine two one-dimensional objects (lines) in one dimensional space. They can interact one with another in one dimension only because they do not feel other dimensions. Please explain how these lines can interact in three-dimensions. Thus, since particles really do not interact in a plane, but in space, it is a evidence that the ''areatime'' theory is wrong.

''It seems to me that you are still thinking very much in terms of the classical trajectory picture''.

The classical trajectory picture appears as an inevitable consequence of our discussions about the shape or dimensions of elementary particles. According to quantum mechanics, a particle is smeared out over some region of space and its position and momentum is uncertain. Therefore it is senseless to discuss about the shape of a particle ''photons must be 2-dimensional entities'' because it leds to the classical trajectory picture. Another your proposition ''When I claimed that smaller objects are more two-dimensional than larger ones of same shape'' also contradicts quantum mechanics; particles cannot have shape (as a plane). Since a particle is smeared out over some region of spacetime then one is in three-dimensions always and therefore the notion of areatime is wrong. And the propositions ''Photons exist in areatime. photons must be 2-dimensional entities'' contradicts quantum mechanics.

Sincerely,

Constantin

    • [deleted]

    Constantin,

    I can see that there is a gap between what you think my theory says and what it actually says. It is my responsibility to make it very clear what it actually says, so I'll have a go at it.

    You wrote: "The absence of this conclusion in your theory is a flaw in your theory because it is logically self-evident."

    I'm not sure what you mean. What is 'it' that is logically self-evident? The absence of a conclusion (or rather, conclusive statement) about interactions? If that's what you meant, then I'll have to again request that you wait until the follow-up paper is finished. Or did you mean that the (necessity for?) interactions is logically self-evident? I don't think that interactions are logically forced upon the structure of quantum mechanics. There are such things as free particles, after all, and we could have lived in a universe in which that is the only kind. Please clarify what you meant if I did not address your comment.

    You then quoted two passages out of my paper, connecting the antecedent to the subsequent by 'therefore', when in fact there was no such connection in my paper, thereby changing the meaning of the conjunction of the passages to an assertion which is not contained in my essay and furthermore seems so obviously false that you were "surprised" that I missed this "inevitable conclusion". In philosophical circles, this is called a straw man.

    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this came out of a genuine misunderstanding rather than bad faith, mainly because at this stage it is very easy to misunderstand this idea. So let me explain. As I mentioned in my previous post, this whole business about smaller objects being more two-dimensional than larger objects of same shape is merely a plausibility argument to motivate axiom 1. The key idea, and the one you really should focus on, is axiom 1. You assert that "if a direction in space has to vanish, it is self-evident that a particle can interact in two dimensions only, because one does not feel other dimensions". Agreed, but that is not what I claim. I specifically mentioned in my essay that positing that a direction in space vanishes poses difficulties because it conflicts with isotropy of space.

    If you take axiom 1 as a given, however, it is not 'a direction in space' that vanishes in that postulated limit, but the volume element in question 'all at once' because the fundamental quantity that changes in that limit is spacetime, not space. Thus it also makes no longer any sense to talk of 'particles' in that limit or how they interact, and your objections about their interactions being preferential along a plane do not apply. That is because in that limit *they do not actually exist as particles*. Of course, we do know that particles exist and interact in space but, and this is the a crucial point I tried to emphasize in my previous response, *we know this as a result of measurements*, and if we assume that a measurement causes the phase to disappear (however briefly) then for that duration there actually is a particle in space (and spacetime) that is manifesting the properties that are being measured. This is actually quite consistent with the orthodox interpretation of QM, according to which a particle has no definite properties unless it is measured. The question of what a 'measurement' is from the perspective of this theory is addressed at least in some detail in the follow-up to this paper. I ask for your patience on these details until I get to finish my paper. In the meantime you may wish to read a related paper of mine which discusses this aspect from a more philosophical perspective:

    "Ontology and the Wave Function Collapse" at

    http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/83153

    You say "The classical trajectory picture appears as an inevitable consequence of our discussions about the shape or dimensions of elementary particles." I'm afraid that is incorrect. If photons really exist outside of spacetime in the manner specified in my paper, it can be perfectly sensible to talk about their shape and dimensionality without its 'inevitably' leading to photon trajectories in space. The events associated with the 'life' of a photon are its emission and absorption. Assuming that these count as measurements, what you have, according to this theory, are two events in spacetime related to each other by a distance in space ct and time interval t due to some process that occurs in areatime. No trajectory in space required, in fact if there were a trajectory it would contradict the notion that photons exist in areatime!

    You say "According to quantum mechanics, a particle is smeared out over some region of space and its position and momentum is uncertain." If by 'uncertain', you mean 'not well defined' then I agree.

    You say "Therefore it is senseless to discuss about the shape of a particle ''photons must be 2-dimensional entities'' because it leds to the classical trajectory picture."

    Please see my above comment.

    You say" Another your proposition ''When I claimed that smaller objects are more two-dimensional than larger ones of same shape'' also contradicts quantum mechanics; particles cannot have shape (as a plane). Since a particle is smeared out over some region of spacetime then one is in three-dimensions always and therefore the notion of areatime is wrong. And the propositions ''Photons exist in areatime. photons must be 2-dimensional entities'' contradicts quantum mechanics."

    Again, you are confusing a mathematical observation with an empirical one. The mathematical statement that the A/V ratio of smaller objects is larger than that of larger objects of same shape is true independent of the laws of physics that govern our universe. It is true even though we cannot ascribe to quantum objects a definite shape. My theory attempts, in part, to provide an explanation for why we cannot do this. Let me also urge you once more to focus on the axioms of my theory (or the conclusions I draw from them), rather than the motivating arguments leading up to them.

    Thanks again for taking the time to consider my ideas, I think that sparring with you is valuable training for future encounters with other skeptics.

    Armin

    • [deleted]

    Armin,

    It is a good method to defend your essay by claiming that nobody can understand your unfinished theory. Meanwhile, my objections were correct because there is the main conclusion at the end of your essay: "The derivation implies that quantum objects actually exist in areatime". It is your words that: all objects of atomic and nuclear proportion have in common is that, compared to objects on our scale, they are vastly more two-dimensional. Therefore, at least partially, the essay contradicts to reality. Let the FQXi community sees, if the quantum particles are flat or not. The existence of head-on collisions proton-proton, electron-electron in colliders is a proof that quantum particles are not flat. The Compton scattering phenomenon is a proof that photons are not two-dimensional entities.

    Armin, this proposition ''The classical trajectory picture appears as an inevitable consequence of our discussions about the shape or dimensions of elementary particles'' is true, because, if you'll try to see the shape, for it is necessary to localize a photon in a very small region of space with definite position - and it is an approach to classical picture. The macroscopic classical bodies only seem to have the ''definite'' positions and trajectories.

    I finish here, since Armin does not recognize the logic, confuses readers and uses the opposing propositions; He wrote first in the essay that particles (photons) have the shape, then he says the opposite. He wrote first in the essay that quantum particles are flat, then he tries to show the opposite...

    Sincerely,

    Constantin

    • [deleted]

    Armin,

    I've had a chance to your essay a second time, but really haven't had a chance to study it. I have one question to start. You begin with the properties of the ratio of A to V, but then your first axiom relates quantities of spacetime U_4 in the limit as V approaches 0. Since the geometry of spacetime is different then the geometry of space, shouldn't V be in terms of the invariant interval such that:

    [math]A/V \propto\ {(r^2-(ct)^2)}^{-1/2}[/math]

    In other words, how do you know that time doesn't vanish also, since c approaches infinity at this scale. Doesn't it?

    Dan

      • [deleted]

      Constantin,

      You wrote: "It is a good method to defend your essay by claiming that nobody can understand your unfinished theory."

      I did not claim that"nobody" understands my essay, only that you misunderstood it. But, I don't blame you because this essay presents only part of the picture.

      You wrote: "I finish here, since Armin does not recognize the logic, confuses readers and uses the opposing propositions;"

      Fortunately, our exchange is publicly available so that readers can decide for themselves how accurate your characterizations are.

      I thank you for the time you took to consider my essay and for making clear the dangers of presenting only a partial picture of a truly novel idea. My hope is that once the rest is in, this sort of problem will become moot.

      Best,

      Armin

      • [deleted]

      Dan,

      Before I start, let me thank you for making the extra effort of reading my essay a second time and for raising an interesting question.

      There are two separate issues here:

      First, I realize now that I used the same letter for two distinct concepts, which may cause confusion. Pardon me for that, I will attempt to clarify now:

      The A/V ratio in the beginning was used as an argument to make axiom I seem more plausible. In this context, A refers to the surface area of a 3-D object, which naturally exists in spacetime.

      After axiom I is introduced, the symbol A refers to a two-dimensional region in areatime within the limit specified by that axiom.

      So, before going further in answering your question, I must specify the sense in which A is used. My impression is that since you used A in the context of the A/V ratio, you mean it in the surface area sense, so that will be sense in which I'll use it as well.

      The second issue has to do with how to characterize the 'transition' from U_4 to U-3 in terms of the components of the volume element. It seems that you are saying that the occurrence of this transition should be independent of the inertial frame used (did I understand right?) and to make it so, one should use an expression for V in terms of the invariant interval. I admit that I need to think about this, I will get back to you soon.

      Thanks again,

      Armin

      Armin

      • [deleted]

      Irvin,

      Yes, you where correct in the way in which you interpreted my correspondence. I was referring to A in the surface area sense, and believe that since you are working with quantities of spacetime in your axiom, you should also be using an expression for V in terms of the invariant interval. The important question is: As V of spacetime approaches zero does U_4 "transition" to U_3 or U_2 (which is 2-D space, with no time)?

      Dan

      6 days later
      • [deleted]

      Dear Sir,

      The validity of a physical statement rests with its correspondence to reality. We do not see how this condition could be satisfied in your description of area-time.

      You have correctly described the relationship of Area that is related to two dimensional fields and Volume that is related to three dimensional structures. Both are related to the radius r or rather d or 2r. When r is reduced, obviously both are proportionately reduced. But it does not make a sphere (a three dimensional structure) flat, i.e., a circle (a two dimensional structure). Appearance may or may not be reality. We have shown in our essay that what we see is not the same as what we measure. The difference can be shown mathematically as follows:

      Write down the formula for the Volume and Surface Area of the Sphere. Here the numbers 4/3 and 4 respectively and pi are constants. The only variable is r. Both vary according to the variations of r. Thus, these variations are proportionate and depend upon the value of r.

      Now divide both the formulae by 4 pi r^2.

      The result: r/3 varies as one.

      Or r varies as 3.

      This means that for every increase of r by unity, circumference of the sphere increases by 3, whereas we know that it actually increases by pi or 3.141.... Since circumference of the sphere is related to the diameter of the cylinder containing the sphere, which is used to determine the values of the Volume and Surface Area of the sphere, it is also related to the Volume and Surface Area of the sphere. Thus, there is an anomaly. The other mathematical derivations of the values of the Volume and Surface Area of the sphere are also not strictly exact, but near approximations. Thus, the anomaly is not explained by these.

      The anomaly is further reinforced by the size of the radius of atoms using a scanning tunneling microscope. On the periodic table of the elements, atomic radius size tends to increase when moving down columns (periods), but decrease when moving across rows (groups). While the increase in size with increase in period is understandable, the decrease in size with increase in group Number has not been satisfactorily explained. We explain those differently, which also solves the anomaly of pi vs 3 and derives the value of pi from fundamental principles.

      We treat gravity not as a force that pulls, but a force that stabilizes - be it the atomic orbit or the planetary orbits. We also treat gravity not as a single force but as a composite force of 7, which we derive from fundamental principles. These 7 forces five rise to the 7 periods. Each atom also has these 7 varieties of gravity in it, which regulates its internal dynamics. Their inter-relationship is reveled from the inter-relationship of the energy levels of the s, p, d and f orbitals. As we have derived earlier, r varies as 3. The r is determined by these 7 forces collectively. Thus, the atom has a 7 x 3 = 21 layered structure. While this constitutes the nucleus, the electrons that confine these fall into a different category. The nucleus part is subject to fermionic rules of exclusion. But the electron orbits are subject to the bosonic principle of superposition. Thus, the bigger the atomic number, the bigger the force of confinement. The electron sea is responsible for our perception of the object. But since they do not have a fixed structure like the nuclear part, they are not apparent in measurement. This explains the ratio r varies with (21/7) 3. This also explains the perceived value of pi as (22/7) 3.141...

      Regarding the other parts of your essay, we will comment separately.

      Regards,

      basudeba

        • [deleted]

        Dear Armin,

        Wisdom is more important than imagination is more important than knowledge for all the we know is just an imagination chosen wisely.

        Please read Theory of everything at your convenience posted by me in this contest.

        Who am I? I am virtual reality, I is absolute truth.

        Love,

        Sridattadev.

        • [deleted]

        FYI: I responded to another gentleman "Basudeba", asking me to comment on part of your Essay. Therefore you may be interested. You can see my reply to your Essay under my Essay: By Russ Otter Subtext: Digital or Analog? Date of reply March 7th. To Dear Basudeba,

        Your Essay is obviously brilliant, but it properly draws no critical conclusions, however it does open some doors...

        Deep Congratulations on your outstanding detail and work,

        Russ

          • [deleted]

          Dear Sir,

          We have replied to Mr. Russ Otter in his thread. Kindly see it there.

          Regards,

          basudeba.

          Dear Armin,

          Your essay offers a very creative idea, to try to understand the quantum phase from first principles. It is interesting to try to imagine "area without volume," where, as you put it, "space vanishes while area is preserved." It reminds me of the idea of compactification for higher dimensions, only applied to spacetime itself.

          Best regards,

          Paul

          Dear Armin Nikkhah Shirazi,

          I like your essay and I have a similar result. In my case I assume directly the periodicity as constraint (in your paper is $\tau_a$), which is nothing else that the de Broglie periodicity of fields. I show that this provides a remarkable matching with ordinary relativistic QM.

          I hope you'll give a look to my essay [link:www.fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/901]link[\link].

          Good luck,

          Donatello

          PS: you should give a look also to the concept of de Broglie phase harmony.

          2 months later

          To anyone interested,

          It took me much longer than I expected to complete the related and follow up papers, but they are done now. The links to the papers, listed in order of development of the theory, can be found below:

          Quantum Superposition, Mass, and General Relativity:

          http://hdl.handle.net/2027.42/83863

          A Dimensional Theory of Quantum Mechanics:

          http://hdl.handle.net/2027.42/83865

          EPR Paradox as Evidence for the Emergent Nature of Spacetime:

          http://hdl.handle.net/2027.42/83864

          Armin

          Hi Dan,

          Sorry it took so long to to respond to your query. I have thought about your question a lot, but could not come to a conclusive answer. This leads me to suspect that there is something about the question itself that is causing the problem.

          I believe now that, rather than focusing on the limit and the volume element "in and of itself" it is more appropriate to think of some physical system that exists in it. This allows us to unambiguously define tau_A. I suspect that trying to define the emergence process in the limit geometrically without taking into account the system that exists in it won't work. I have written the follow-up paper and posted a link to it (see further down) and modified the relevant axiom to take this into account. I basically avoided this issue you are asking about because I am still not clear exactly how it should be done correctly. Fortunately, even though this problem is not addressed, it is still possible to get a lot of mileage out of the framework. I think that the issue of exactly how to define the volume is something that can only be done within the context of field theory. Later this summer I will take a jab at it.

          Armin

          3 months later
          • [deleted]

          Hi Armin,

          It's been a busy summer and I just had a moment to revisit your forum and the question to you that I addressed above. I have to admit to thinking about it from time to time, yet never gave it the attention it deserved. I'm glad to see that you have been working hard and plan to review the links you gave below. I believe your perspective may lead to new and useful understanding.

          Best wishes,

          Dan

          4 days later

          Hi Armin,

          As you were mentioned in the FQXi range of Forum updates, I arrived to read your essay.

          It was however already on the first page that my attention was drawn to the essence of your work :

          "The ratio of A/V becomes larger as the objects become smaller"

          Here I would like to comment as follows (and I am not at all a mathematician so if I am wrong please react, I am sure that you will !!!)

          Archimedes already made the formula's for the surface and the volume of a sphere:

          A: surface : 4πr²

          V: volume : 4/3 πr³

          So the A/V ratio is : 3/r

          This means that with EVERY sphere the A/V ratio is 3/r.

          The size of r is a size to be accorded among us, if you take the size of r as a light year then the NUMBER of A/V is very little compared to the number of a millimetre, which doe not mean thet a dimension has been lost compared to the lightyear distance.

          Any way I think you make an essential error in assuming that the A/V ratio is changing with lengths that we are assuming, a sphere will always be a sphere and his surface is made of a plane that has no thickness , so the essential ratio will always be the same, it is like going into a fractal, all the forms stay the same and the basic PROPORTIONS also.

          My conclusion is that the assumption you make is wrong, dimensions are not diminishing at certain scales.

          However I would like to draw your attention to the Planck scale of 10^-33cm, after this length we cannot measure any more and our universe becomes incomprehensible, In my essay I enter a non causal dimension called Total Simultaneity, but that does not matter now.

          What I would like to indicate here is that the Planck scale is perhaps the only sc le that is a real limit to our 4D causal Universe.

          However for your information there is an article in NEW SCIENTIST of 25 september 2010 entitled : DIMENSIONS VANISH IN QUANTUM GRAVITY, written by Rachel Courtland, Steven Carlip from the University of California (arxiv.org/abs/1009.1136v1) explains his view about a strange behaviour at small scales that fields ans particles start to behave as if space is one-dimensional, and explains that by the QUANTUM FOAM proposed by John Wheeler in the 1950s, so you see ther is nothing new under the sun.

          Keep on thinking free

          Wilhelmus

            • [deleted]

            Dear All,

            If we just observer a human life from pre conception, where the child is a dream of the parents, to how the child acquires knowledge of space and time as it grows and how eventually that being dies and looses the meaning of space and time again we would understand the universe. Answer lies with in us.

            Singularity is not only relative infinity but it is also absolute equality,

            Singularity is not only out there in the universe but also with in here in our hearts.

            Love,

            Sridattadev.

              • [deleted]

              Hi Wilhelmus,

              Thank you for taking the time to review my essay.

              First, let me emphasize that the A/V argument was meant as a plausibility argument and not much more to make axiom I, which on its own is highly unfamiliar, more acceptable. The conclusions of my paper rest on the axioms, not on the plausibility argument.

              Having pointed that out, let me now attempt to respond to your comments. I must admit that I did not exactly understand your objection, but I will attempt to further elaborate on the plausibility argument, taking your comments into account.

              It is true that the A/V ratio is a dimensionful number, and as such its magnitude depends on the units used. However, I was comparing two different A/V ratios, not making a claim about a single A/V ratio without any context.

              To make this explicit, I could have instead of the original wording in my paper explicitly used the ratio of the two A/V ratios of a ball with r=1m and r=10^-11m,

              i.e. {(A/V)_r=10^-11} / {(A/V)_r=1} =10^11

              This is a dimensionless number, completely independent of units (assuming that you use the units consistently of course). You can use light years or millimeters, but the number will remain the same. And it does tell you something absolute, namely, that the smaller ball has more area per volume than the larger ball or, conversely, that the smaller ball has less volume per area than the larger ball.

              If I had made a claim about the A/V ratio of a single object, without comparing it to anything else, then I agree that would have been nonsense, because you can manipulate the magnitude by arbitrarily choosing units. But that is not what I did.

              Think about it physically: The changing A/V ratio in conjunction with the fact that mass is expressible in terms of a volume density and not an area density is ultimately part of the reason that there are no basketball-sized dust grains floating in the air, or that we can't walk on water, like many small insects can.

              As I perceive our world, its character does change with scale albeit not in a strictly proportional manner, and in my view a substantial factor is the changing A/V ratio of objects at different scales (although it is of course not all, e.g. the cancellation of electrical charges in macroscopic objects and the magnitude of the elementary charge are other very important factors).

              I hope that you can now better understand my argument.

              As for speculations about the Planck scale, my best understanding is that at best it is a heuristic guess. I have yet to see a substantial theoretical foundation other than it is obtained by combining the central constants of QM and GR, which is really merely a plausibility argument. The fallacy is to think that this necessarily means something. It could, but, absent any deeper reasons, it may not. Not every combination of constants has to signify something. Think of the Planck mass, for example.

              I think a lot of people have a vested interest in it meaning something, and so it has taken a more important role than it perhaps deserves and people attribute to it the properties you mention without solid theoretical backing.

              As for my views on Quantum Gravity, they are totally divergent from mainstream. If you wish to find out what they are, you are invited to read the follow-up paper to this, which can be found here:

              http://hdl.handle.net/2027.42/83865

              I regret that I can't just come out and say what my views are, because they are so unfamiliar that I would feel compelled to explain how I arrived at those views, which would take quite a bit of space. The paper, by proposing a novel interpretation of quantum mechanics, in effect does that.

              I hope that I was able to address your comments. Should you have have any further suggestions, feel free to post.

              Cordially,

              Armin