Hello Thomas glad you participated again in this year's contest.

And I am very glad you are Alive - as you have proven mathematically beyond any reasonable doubt !! If you follow my argument in Q6 of my present FQXI paper, based on older arguments in my papers referred to therin, you will see that I believe that quantum probability is a mathematical interpretation of a very unprobabilistic local, causal world of wave-like diffusion in a universal lattice In other words in EPR and Bell the photons have identical phase from start to finish, but it is the random state of the detectors that create the illusion of probability.

For this reason although I could see how deeply and learnedly you have gone into these questions, I do not want to take that route myself. I would like to learn about Poincare's circle, though - I have renewed respect for his ideas - and will google accordingly. Thanks and good luck.

Vladimir

    Thanks, Vladimir! As an artist, you probably appreciate the idea of infinite hyperbolic geometry in the form of some of M.C. Escher's drawings which were inspired by Poincare. The mathematics of it is explained in this link.

    I will get over to your essay as soon as I can. For the record, though, I am not saying that probability is an illusion; I am saying (following Joy Christian) that quantum entanglement is an illusion. In other words, the phenomenon of quantum correlations may be explained in non-probabilistic terms, which obviates quantum entanglement (and therefore, the assumption of nonlocality) as a foundational premise of how nature works. We can still put probabilistic measure schemata to good use in approximating discrete system outcomes in bounded local time intervals (in fact, that is how semiconductors and logic gates function).

    Tom

    Dear Thomas

    Yes I know the Escher circle you mean - he is great. Thanks for the link to the Poincare geometry - I do not know if this is significant in any way but in Fig. 9.2 all the construction circles on the tangent are bow waves see my Bow Wave paper here - these waves are the same shape as far-field dipole wavefronts as described in my United Dipole Field paper linked from the same page. I have argued for having the electric field in these waves as the source of quantum probability - in other words quantum effects are due to the spread of real dipole bow waves in the ether. Easy to say and looks good in a diagram (attached diagram from my Beautiful Universe paper), but of course to prove it convincingly (or disprove it?) is not that easy!

    I will have to study Joy's work. I am not saying a probabilistic interpretation does not work as a mathematical nuts-and-bolts method to describe physical situations, but that this 'probability' is an outcome of an ordered, local, causal process. Thanks again for appreciating my art. My physics needs some more work!

    Cheers. VladimirAttachment #1: BUFIG28.jpg

    6 days later

    Tom

    I congratulate you on an excellently written essay but even better content. It seems I'd misjudged you as a reactionary, probably my fault by not admitting to 'knowing' anything, leading you to 'direct me' back to a quagmire I'd just spent years rising above! But I see you can be very open minded and reject majority 'wisdom' when appropriate. The work certainly deserves a much better score than at present.

    I like your fresh view that it's the 'Bellites' who are determinist, and of questioning the assumption that reality is (only) observer created. I also noted your post about better understanding of Georgina's thesis of two apparent 'realities', each observers being only subjective.

    I extend this to derive two distinct classes of observation. One by direct detection or (particle coupling) interaction with the phenomena being measured, and a different 'apparent only' class equivalent to Minkowski's "imaginary c+v" (1908). The mechanism is explored in detail but an analogy is TV i.e. The Enterprise taking off at warp 3, (or as I said to Paul, the Keystone cops dong 100mph). They all have a secondary mechanism in between the original reality and the detection, but the real signals to and from the TV all do c. Only one uses 'Proper Time', and gets the real result 'c'. I quote Lorentz expressing his doubt about 'excluding' this apparent c+v in 1913.

    This physical analysis using quantum logic turns out very analogous to your metaphysical approach supporting Joys mathematical one. Even down to the 'handedness', which is evident in Chirality, IFR, and the orientation of the CMB anisotropic flow of Smoot etc. A wide range of astronomical anomalies are resolved including ballistic free relativistic stellar aberration matching observation which the IAU have been seeking since abandoning the 'constant' in 2000, and resolving the outstanding ecliptic plane issue.

    I do hope you find time to read mine and can spot the consistencies, if from a totally different viewpoint. It is dense and probably tries to explain too much as it will test any intellect. 'Kinetic thinking' is unfamiliar. I've put in in a slightly theatrical setting to lighten up the read a little. I greatly look forward to your views.

    Best of luck

    Peter

      Thanks, Peter! You're very kind.

      I'm not reactionary. I'm just not very ambitious, and that may seem conservative to some. :-)

      I'll write more later. And I promise to get over to your essay site for comment as soon as I can.

      Best,

      Tom

      Tom:

      You've done a wonderful job with this abstract topic. Due to the subject nature, and my lack of familiarity in the area (which I want to remedy!), I've found your essay challenging each time I read it---but, those limitations aside, I thought you did an excellent job of presenting an enjoyable, even poetic argument, in which a number of interesting bits fall neatly in line.

      Good luck!

      Daryl

        4 days later

        Thanks, Daryl! Since I complimented you on your essay site for following clearly stated premises to a logically closed judgment, this is a good place to insert a link to a paper by Tobias Fritz recently posted to the arXiv that I think shows pretty clearly the consequences of defining things in a way that guarantees validation by observation, in effect rigging the game -- or loading the dice, if one prefers -- toward a preconceived reality. Logicians call this method of reasoning "double negation," meaning that one fits a result to a nonconstructive argument so that there is no means of escaping the conclusion for which the argument was prepared.

        Fritz wants to obviate the free will hypothesis (i.e., " ... agents conducting measurements can choose between different measurement settings in each run of the experiment, and this choice is random and independent of the source") for Bell's Theorem, thereby strengthening the theorem's conclusion that no local hidden variables theory can reproduce quantum predictions even given free will, i.e., closing a loophole to the main conclusion that no model of a physical system can be both local and realistic.

        He starts with the assumptions:

        "(I) Realism: Any physical system can be described in terms a probabilistic mixture of states in which all observables have definite values ('hidden variables'). Measurements reveal these definite values.

        (II) Locality: Physical systems have spatial components which can be described independently. They do not interact across spacelike separated events."

        Who decrees that because a physical system *can* be described in probabilistic states that it *has* to be? Certainly no classically continuous model is described in "a probabilistic mixture of states." The disguised assumption here is that probabilistic reality is a physical law, that because quantum theory cannot model classical phenomena, we can therefore leap to the conclusion that classical physics cannot model quantum phenomena. Joy Christian has falsified that notion by accomplishing the required feat -- with a local, realist and constructive argument that agrees with all but the "probabilistic mixture of states" in Fritz's definition. Remove that assumption, and free will comes back into play with exactly the degrees of freedom required to reproduce quantum correlations locally, and no value can be assigned to nonlocality -- as Bell-Aspect results are compelled to do.

        (N.B. Fritz wants replace the free will hypothesis with his own: "if an experiment contains several sources, then the theory describes these sources as independent. This means that the joint distribution of hidden variables is a product distribution." In our essay, it is clear that because the source of *all* information is a point at infinity, a measurement result realized from a continuous range of variables guarantees a locally real event without obviating equally real results of any experiment not performed in that same local time interval.)

        Tom

        Dear Thomas for some reason I missed seeing your comment on my page till today, and have answered there - sorry for the delay. I value your opinions.

        Vladimir

        • [deleted]

        Steve, you wrote in Ronald Bennett's forum, to which I offered to reply here:

        "Indeed Tom , but apparently a lot of scientists do not really love the critics. Tom, could you help me to be accepted in an university in USA? I d like have my doctorate in physics. I could imrpove my works.I d like also learn engeniering and computing. I do not know all you know Tom, I have never said that I knew all.I am arrogant indeed but you know I am just a young searcher wanting to be recognized for his researchs and wanting to learn more in the good universities with the good mentors and professors. I have found an improtant thing Tom, you know it, I d like learn more and I d like test my models and inventions with good partners. Belgium is frustrating. Ihave already had a business angel from Paris, I must admit that I am a little parano.

        I d like find the good university. I have always dreamed to learn in an american university.Like I have already explained, I was in geology at the FNDP of Namur Belgium. But I have had neurological probelms.It was difficult you know after.I have learned by myself. I have always this dream you know.

        Regards "

        LOL! I'm not an academic, Steve. I couldn't get you into Barber College. I do know something about neurological deficiency, however, having only fairly recently surmised that my lifelong dyslexia probably originates from an auto accident between ages 3 and 4. A bad one -- infant brother killed, mother and stepfather seriously injured -- though it appeared that I was the lucky one, having only been thrown from the vehicle, knocked unconscious and suffered a wound to the back of the head that was closed with a few stitches. I have learned that it coincides with the part of the brain that controls language skills.

        I went through a childhood of isolation, with difficulties in speech, reading and comprehension. I tried to compensate by reading material over and over -- sometimes I would take away an entirely different meaning from one reading to the next (very frustrating). I had devoured two sets of encyclopedias by age 11 or so. About the same time, I taught myself algebra from the radio circuit design books my father had left behind (he was a radio technician who died when I was 2). That was a mistake -- I only managed to pass second year algebra in school with a promise to my teacher that I wouldn't pursue any higher mathematics. While I did manage to be admitted to college, I couldn't keep up well enough to keep my student deferment and avoid being drafted into the military (I ended up volunteering for the U.S.Navy) to serve in Vietnam. I withdrew into myself to do mathematics then and ever since, earning a living any other way that I could (and I haven't done badly, in fact, for myself and my family). My only ambition, by force of circumstance more than conscious choice, is knowledge for its own sake.

        Today -- and this is only in my late years -- it is a feeling of great accomplishment and triumph to even participate in a forum such as this, and be able to hold my own. I don't just know what I'm talking about -- I know *how* I know, because I have of necessity studied it many more times and more intensely than most, closing gaps of understanding through many many repeated iterations of the same material. Even I would find that tedious, if I didn't have to do it.

        Everyone has their own life to live and their ways of learning, and I don't consider mine any better or worse than anyone else's. All I can say to you is that if you wish a life in science -- then live it. Don't talk about it, don't expect anyone to give you a formal introduction to it, don't invest a lot of confidence in people or institutions to give you help. If it means enough to you, you'll find a way. Write papers, prove theorems, apply for conferences (most have scholarships for those without means, whose abstract or paper passes peer review).

        I don't consider myself "self taught." Though one can be trained to behave in a certain way, no one is ever taught anything. Learning can only be acquired by meaningful study and exchanges with other scholars in the field, and this is the case whether one has much formal education, or none at all. Scholars aren't scholars because they earned a Ph.D. Scholars are scholars because they practice scholarship.

        Take care. Here's hoping that you find the will to pursue your goals no matter what.

        Tom

          • [deleted]

          Hello Tom,

          I thank you very much for this answer.It permits to better understand you.

          You know Tom, me also I have had a difficult life more my health. But the most important like you say is to continue to learn more still and always. I have still a lot of parano and this and that but I try to relativate.

          I d like continue my universities. I must found the correct places in fact with good teachers.

          I am going to search a good university with the good professors and I will learn and I will imrpove my works. I have learned a lot on net ,here on fqxi or on other platforms. But I must learn more.

          I thank you Tom still for your sincerity and your advices.

          Regards

          sorry it was from me

          Hello Tom,

          I thank you very much for this answer.It permits to better understand you.

          You know Tom, me also I have had a difficult life more my health. But the most important like you say is to continue to learn more still and always. I have still a lot of parano and this and that but I try to relativate.

          I d like continue my universities. I must found the correct places in fact with good teachers.

          I am going to search a good university with the good professors and I will learn and I will imrpove my works. I have learned a lot on net ,here on fqxi or on other platforms. But I must learn more.

          I thank you Tom still for your sincerity and your advices.

          Regards

          Hi Tom,

          At this momment I study the p-adic numbers and the K theory. It seems relevant when the groups are well distributed.In a sphere of course, evolutive. I ask me how I am going to make detrministic correlations in a pure 3D and the proportions with rotations.I ask me how I can converge with Qp the commutative body of these p-adics numbers.The serie of uniqueness has its secret in this line of reasoning. The p-adic analyse seems relevant when the groups are finite in their pure general universal serie of uniqueness.

          I believe strongly that a real taxonomy of spheres can be made.with a correct fractalization of our 3D. I see that the axiom of dimension is not verified for the Ktheory. I beleive that the correct superimposing is a 3d, there in logic it is ok at my opinion.

          Could you explain me Tom why the non-commutative tori in superior dimensions have the same Ktheory.Is it due to the projective of irrational superimposings ?

          Regards

          • [deleted]

          Hi Tom

          Having started to get to grips with Joy Christian's work, I can appreciate what a superb job you have done in producing such a well-written and easy to read essay that discusses the meaning of such complex issues.

          All the best in the competition,

          Michael

            5 days later
            • [deleted]

            Dear Tom,

            First, thank you very much for this well-written and thought-provoking essay.

            I've been feeling a heavy guilt trip for not commenting on your essay before now, especially in light of the very kind and thoughtful comments you left on the blog for my essay. Not to make too big a production of it, but the reasons for my failure to comment here are a bit complex. I've now read your essay four times, and it makes me feel incredibly stupid/obtuse to say that I still cannot claim to fully understand it. Your thought processes obviously are very subtle and refined. My thought processes, by contrast, tend to be what I think of as being at the more naive and primitive end of the spectrum. I'm convinced that both modes of thinking are important and useful, and certainly not necessarily mutually exclusive. That said, the subtlety of the argument in your essay has left me perplexed.

            To offer just one example of my obtuseness, could you please give a few specific, concrete examples of the sorts of questions which might be asked in Wheeler's version of "20 Questions"? Even that basic point has left me unsure that I comprehend the underlying concept. Any help greatly appreciated.

            Btw, I've been following with great interest the discussions you've been involved in over on George Ellis's blog on top-down vs. bottom-up causation. Fascinating stuff! Don't know whether you might have noticed a couple of posts I left there on the nature of sentience as it may relate to that topic. How could anyone not be deeply intrigued by all this?

            Good luck in the competition!

            Regards,

            jcns

              • [deleted]

              "It turns out to be Bell loyalists who are the actual determinists, believing that reality is determined by probabilistic measure schemata, by which they assign equally likely outcomes to [']... the experiment not done...[']..., and thereby limit the questions that can be asked, to an assumed domain of perfect knowledge."

              Not necessarily. Now here's a Bell loyalist who REALLY thinks outside the box:

              "... In a truly non-causal world, Bell's Theorem cannot be formulated because in such a world elemental events are not stable enough for Bell-type non-locality to even be defined. ....

              "Bell showed in 1964 that this cosine-squared dependence of polarization correlations is incompatible with a local reality. Therefore any reality (quantum reality) that lies behind these facts must be non-local. It is important to realize that Bell's Theorem is based solely on the facts not on the details of quantum theory so that if someday quantum theory is falsified or replaced by a better theory, Bell's Theorem will still be valid. Even if quantum theory is wrong, reality must be non-local.

              "Although Bell's Theorem is based on facts, it goes beyond facts to make confident assertions about the reality behind those facts. Because it deals with reality, not facts or theory, Bell's Theorem is metaphysical, not physical, and hence is vulnerable to certain metaphysical assumptions about the nature of the world that are essential to Bell's proof. If we live in a world where these metaphysical assumptions are not justified, then Bell's theorem cannot even be formulated. Here I examine a class of worlds in which Bell's Theorem does not apply, and in which non-locality, in the way it's defined by Bell, does not even make sense."

              NOTE: Nick Herbert's use of the word "reality" might need clarification. He employs it in the Kantian sense of "noumenal reality" -- i.e., the Whatever beyond or behind the phenomenal ("factual") world of our perception.

              A SIMPLE REFUTATION OF BELL'S NON-LOCALITY THEOREM (CAUTION: VALID ONLY IN SOME WORLDS)

              Interestingly, the guy also believes that in a singular manner Bell managed to stick a finger through the veil:

              SEE SPOT RUN: A SIMPLE PROOF OF BELL'S THEOREM

                Thank you kindly for reading my essay and for the links, nmann. I am familiar with Nick Herbert's work. I have enjoyed his writing very much over the years.

                One question though:

                Where, exactly, did Bell define "nonlocality?"

                Best,

                Tom

                Hi JCNS,

                It doesn't matter what the questions are. What really matters is the sensitive dependence on initial condition. And in this case, the initial condition is completely determined -- You know Wheeler's famous drawing, shaped kind of like a U with an eyeball on the thicker left horn? That is a generalization of what many scientists call the weak anthropic principle -- i.e., a universe suggestively conscious of itself, which obviates the "equally likely" hypothesis of a probabilistic world. And which answers Einstein's question, "Did God have a choice?" If God (Nature) did not have a choice in creating the world, we would not have a choice in observing it.

                I don't really mean to be that subtle. I hope to do better.

                Thanks, and best of luck and good wishes to you, too.

                Tom

                • [deleted]

                THR: Where, exactly, did Bell define "nonlocality?"

                nmann: I should ask what's your point? (one senses a game is being played here) but anyway he definitely defined "locality" --

                "The direct causes (and effects) of events are near by, and even the indirect causes (and effects) are no further away than permitted by the velocity of light." (from "La nouvelle cuisine", 1990, in "Speakable and unspeakable in quantum mechanics", Cambridge, 2004, p. 239).

                One of the assumptions, of course, built into BT. I'm not confident he "defined" nonlocality except inferentially or by referring to Einstein's "Spooky Action" or to Bohmian pilot waves. I'd need to look back over a lot of material. But he was, as we know, a Bohmian of a sort, and Bohm (plus Hiley) offer a definition in the Abstract of "On the Intuitive Understanding of Nonlocality as Implied by Quantum Theory" (1975, well before Bell's death):

                "We bring out the fact that the essential new quality implied by the quantum theory is nonlocality; i.e., that a system cannot be analyzed into parts whose basic properties do not depend on the state of the whole system."

                Think JSB went there?

                John Bell defined non-locality as a negation of his factorizability condition for the joint observation AB(a, b, L) = +1 or -1 made by Alice and Bob,

                AB(a, b, L) = A(a, L) x B(b, L),

                where Alice's measurement result A(a, L) = +1 or -1 remains independent of Bob's measurement context b as well as his measurement result B, and likewise Bob's measurement result B(b, L) = +1 or -1 remains independent of Alice's measurement context a as well as her measurement result A.

                John Bell then concluded that no realistic theory satisfying his factorizability condition can reproduce all of the statistical predictions of quantum theory, or even the strong EPR correlation -a.b observed by Alice and Bob.

                In this conclusion John Bell was simply wrong.

                Attached is an explicit model satisfying the above factorizabilty condition and yet reproducing the strong EPR correlation exactly. The second paper attached contains a completely general theorem that proves that, not only the EPR correlation, but ALL stronger-than-classical quantum correlations can be reproduced purely local-realistically, maintaining both the reality and completeness conditions of EPR as well as the locality or factorizability condition of Bell.

                Yet, the myth of Bell's theorem is likely to remain with us, because we love worthless waffles in physics much more than concrete facts and explicit demonstrations.

                Joy ChristianAttachment #1: 16_disproof.pdfAttachment #2: 10_Origins.pdf