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  • Post #37

Hi Eric,

Having learned a little more of what you're up to, I am reminded of events leading from Einstein's photon theorizing to the production of LASER technology.

I am impressed that gamma particle splitting preserves correlation of wave functions with no collapse, so I am not surprised that Joy is interested. For my part I conjecture that an out of equilibrium state, represented by the split and producing coherent pairs of wave energy, reconstructs the LASER phenomenon in reverse. This amounts to a demonstration that the interchangeability of mass and energy does not favor irreversibility. Purely classical, and indeed "unquantum."

Best wishes for a productive path forward in your research!

Tom

Correction: Eric did not use the expression "shooting down the photon" in his published essays as I reported. Apologies. His reports about the careful experiments he made are very technical and such an expression does not reflect the exacting and meticulous seriousness of his work.

Hello Eric,

I finished a first read through of your paper, and besides I couldn't let Joy have the last word. So I have to comment. It was very interesting; a thorough investigation by a careful experimentalist. Not the norm for FQXi essay contests, which tend to be heavier on theory than experiment.

I think you may have found evidence of some things I knew were true already, but you ply a model that's unfamiliar, so I will have to acquaint myself with loading theory a bit - before I know for sure it is what I think it is. I don't think I can say much more than that I think I agree with your interpretation of your findings, for the most part.

I need to read again, when I am more wakeful, before I say more.

all the best,

Jonathan

Hello Eric,

After a little time to read, learn, and digest, I think your work is definitely significant. You may be the guy future researchers will point to and say "He performed the crucial experiment that showed the way beyond the limiting views of 20th century Quantum Mechanics." Or something like that. You chose to focus on one erroneous assumption, while I chose several of my favorite challenge points, but I think you will find there is some agreement in my essay with your work.

If your results bear out in other laboratories, or using even better equipment, it will be seen as a definite step forward in our understanding. It appears that you are using a methodology similar to the one that won Doug Osheroff the Nobel Prize, which I comment about in my essay.

You are not afraid to "look in an area of the parameter space that is not already well-explored," and accordingly you are much more likely to find something interesting and significant. I'm not rating any essays until I get a sense of the quality of this year's entries, but will be sure to give you a high rating when I do.

Hello again, Eric;

This is a link to the slides for Professor Osheroff's talk, mentioned above, which I saw him deliver at UWA near Perth, during FFP10. His wonderful lecture details some of the best ways that experimenters can improve their chances for success. I think you put some of his recommendations into practice already, though. Kudos...

How Advances in Science Are Made

I'm a little surprised you did not comment about the photo of Anton Zeilinger in front of the book entry about Albert Einstein's doubts - regarding the corpuscular theory of light - in the comment and link a few entries above. Zeilinger advised attendees of FFP11 in Paris we should not regard that one as a fact, as even Albert had his doubts.

Sometimes a personal angle like that - which is emotionally relevant - will sell your idea better than evidence alone.

Regards,

Jonathan

Hello again Eric,

I'm coming to believe that the experiments you are doing are very important indeed, and will help us to understand how Quantum Mechanics relates to the world of observable quantities. It appears that you are both a careful and a thorough experimental investigator, and I find the technical discussion of your apparatus and technique interesting.

My main confusion comes in with your choice of the term "Unquantum" because it appears that you are showing that reality is more quantum than classical. You may be providing conclusive evidence that wavefunction collapse is not actually what is happening, but I've understood QM this way for years, since discovering Decoherence Theory.

I think FQXi member H.D. Zeh would be very interested in your results, as they validate some of the things he has been saying for years (though your interpretation is somewhat different). I've had some correspondence with Dieter, and would be happy to send a link to your paper with a recommendation to check your work out - if you do not feel comfortable to contact him yourself.

I may advise him there is something here of interest, regardless.

Regards,

Jonathan

Hello again Eric,

I went ahead and sent an e-mail to Dieter Zeh. If your work is as significant as I think, he will definitely want to check it out.

All the Best,

Jonathan

a month later

Hmm,... Let's try that again.

Hi Eric,

I wanted to ask you the question that keeps coming up for me. Do you think that the coincident detection you are observing relates more to the increased sensitivity of the detectors available for gamma rays, and their ability to distinguish pulse heights, or is there some component relating to the differences between visible light wavelengths and shorter wavelength EM?

All the best,

Jonathan

Here is how I see it: The gamma rays are emitted in a shorter time frame, and the wave energy spreads transversely in a narrower cone than with lower frequency EM, as expected by classical theory. These spatial & temporal properties affect the detector atoms with a pulse of wave energy that lets the atom reach threshold to and respond to make a quantized emission in a sudden manner for the detection. Visible light does not have those properties. Also, the gamma detectors have high "energy" (detector pulse height is proportional to EM frequency and the illusory photon energy) resolution. Visible light would not set-off coincidences from its classical pulses, and we would see a random distribution of detector timings past the beam splitter; we would think it acts like photons in that the energy seems to go one way or another at the beam splitter. Also, the high pulse height resolution of gamma detectors is necessary to be fair to both the photon model and the loading theory, by taking into account energy and timing. Another criteria is high photoelectric effect efficiency in the detector type for the selected gamma-ray. I was able to measure all these effects for what I am saying here and in the essay. Usually the detection split is random and does not make coincident detections. But by comparing to chance, we see there must have been energy pre-loaded such that a partial absorption of classical wave energy can set-off coincident detection pairs well above the chance rate. It was years of hard work. Good question. Thanks. ER

    Thanks Eric,

    An excellent and informative reply. As I understand it; you are saying the effect is more pronounced for gamma rays AND you also get a more detailed picture of what's going on, because you have available and use a better type of detector - which allows you to distinguish coincidence rates more readily.

    This combo would greatly enhance the possibility to actually see the effects of pre-loading and partial absorption - if/when they occur. Which may be why you are likely the first to observe/report these results. The main FQXi Forum page talks about a 3-slit (rather a 3-way interferometer) experiment that may be of interest.

    I wonder how that would work with gamma rays.

    all the best,

    Jonathan

    8 days later

    Eric

    Have you considered any effects of lateral motion (of the non zero spatial 'particle' structure, with respect to the incoming waves during the (non zero time) charge process?

    You'll note from my own essay and recall from previously that I agree with your thesis, have explored this route and found what I think is an important asymmetry of charge. I don't think you've read it yet as I posted above on 29th July but with no response. I'd greatly appreciate it if you did and could comment.

    Many thanks

    Peter

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    • Post #49

    Hi Eric,

    You did the hard stuff. I have little doubt this is a breakthrough. The data will stand and mark the end of the photon as we know it. I also believe other explanations besides Loading Theory are possible. I will post one on your blog when I get some time. I'll bet the FQXi audience alone can generate 3 or 4 reasonable ones. This is not to say that Loading Theory is not the best one.

    Question: You say "By QM and the photon model, a singly emitted "photon" of energy hf must not trigger two coincident detections in a beam-split test"

    What do you consider that single "photon" to consist of?

    Congratulations on changing our models about how things work.

    Don L.

    Don: In the case of light absorption, it seems very hard to circumvent the conclusion that there needs to be energy present at the absorber ahead of time in the detection event. Like I argued in the essay, the experiment asks that we either give up conservation of energy or quantized absorption. I will address other models when offered.

    Your question: The conclusion from many variants of the experiment outlined in the essay is that an hf of EM energy is emitted quantized, but thereafter spreads classically; light itself is not quantized. The initial hf has a narrow solid angle and short emission time as a function of frequency, as understood classically. I take advantage of these properties, enhanced by the gamma-ray, to set-off coincident detection events at rates exceeding chance. I measured a distance and EM frequency dependence in the Unquantum effect to support this view (in essay). My theory of the charge-wave and its application to the photelectric and Compton effects in the essay clarifies things. An absorption threshold and a subsequent quantized emission of light or charge reduces the photon model to an illusion.

    It was nice that you understood to put photon in quotes. My hope for the future is that since we are showing the photon model fails, it is less confusing to use a different word like h-new, hf, hv, light emission, or anything but photon. One may say: "how can we replace the photon model"? (not knocking you at all)

    Also, I would like to acknowledge that another essay by Ragazas has embraced the loading theory.

    Very thankful for your comment. Eric Reiter, Sept 12, 2012.

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    • Post #51

    Hi Eric,

    I am going to write down my conception of what a photon is and what a particle is and perhaps show how they can fit with your experimental results. I hope others will join me in making theories to fit your data. This is not to denigrate Loading Theory, it may be The Theory, but when you have a very large pool of bright people, the bell curve can work its magic in finding other unexpected solutions.

    This is not to take away from your essay or your work, I believe your place in history is certain and that you have broken a logjam that has been blocking physics.

    I call my pet theory "Digital Wave Theory" (www.digitalwavetheory.com). If you visit my web site see the section "The Mechanics of Digital Waves".

    Photons are discontinuous appearances of something that lasts for a Planck length and has a value of h (Planck's constant). This something is separated form the next something by a wavelength. A little thought will show that this string of somethings is a representation of the equation E=hf. I call the "somethings" Planck instances. A solitary Planck instant is undetectable but its reappearance after a wavelength has energy E = hf = hc/wavelenght.

    A particle is similar to a photon but now the Planck instance is replaced by a Compton instance. A Compton instance is a photon that resonates at a wavelength that is the Compton wavelength for that particle. So, a particle looks like resonant high frequency light trapped in moving low frequency light.

    Both Photons and Particles make their appearances according to Feynman's sum over histories technique, and can fit in with his diagrams. When light or particles are directed to a beamsplitter or a diffraction grating or to dual slits they technically do not enter the device but appear across it. An electron when it encounters a dual slit does not go thru it but hops across it. Technically an electron never goes thru even a single slit, because it does not move in a continuous fashion.

    This is probably a good place to stop, with the comment that I believe this conception of a photon can fit in with your experimental results because with this concept it is very unlikely that your gamma ray source is producing what you conceive of as single quanta. If you are interested in how these weird ideas came about, you can find them on my website :)

    Again thanks for your contribution.

    Don L.

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    • Post #52

    Dear Eric Reiter,

    Constantinos Ragazas pointed me to your essay. I guess that your view is also not very different from those by Zeh and by Kadin who does perhaps not trust in someone who is forced to publish in arXiv backwards. So far I am supporting Kadin's main argument: Photons are no particles.

    I admit having no proficiency in this subject. Nonetheless I do not exclude that my overly critical approach to very foundational questions could be of interest or even helpful to you.

    Most of my readers will not even immediately understand how relevant in particular my Fig. 5 might be. It intends to qualitatively and quantitatively explain how a quite understandable mistake led to Lorentzian and Einsteinian speculations.

    Curious,

    Eckard

      13 days later

      Dear Eric,

      Your essay is very informative and fundamental. I agree with in many points. In the Theory of Infinite Nesting of Matter (my essay about it) there is not the case that for example all protons have exactly the same mass. Every particle has its own mass which may be differ from the middle value. The same is for electrons and photons and so on. May be you look at the model of electron and explanation of its spin and some calculation of passing energy from electron to photon.

      Sergey Fedosin

      Hello Eric

      This is group message to you and the writers of some 80 contest essays that I have already read, rated and probably commented on.

      This year I feel proud that the following old and new online friends have accepted my suggestion that they submit their ideas to this contest. Please feel free to read, comment on and rate these essays (including mine) if you have not already done so, thanks:

      Why We Still Don't Have Quantum Nucleodynamics by Norman D. Cook a summary of his Springer book on the subject.

      A Challenge to Quantized Absorption by Experiment and Theory by Eric Stanley Reiter Very important experiments based on Planck's loading theory, proving that Einstein's idea that the photon is a particle is wrong.

      An Artist's Modest Proposal by Kenneth Snelson The world-famous inventor of Tensegrity applies his ideas of structure to de Broglie's atom.

      Notes on Relativity by Edward Hoerdt Questioning how the Michelson-Morely experiment is analyzed in the context of Special Relativity

      Vladimir Tamari's essay Fix Physics! Is Physics like a badly-designed building? A humorous illustrate take. Plus: Seven foundational questions suggest a new beginning.

      Thank you and good luck.

      Vladimir

      Dear Joy,

      I think that you would like my recent work Positive Definite Phase Space Quantum Mechanics, which provides a confirmation of the Einstein ensemble interpretation of quantum mechanics. My work confirms that the wavefunction associated to the Schrödinger equation represents an ensemble instead of a single system and gives the explicit representation of the ensemble in a phase formulation (beyond the Winger & Moyal formulation of QM).

      Regards

      Dear Eric,

      Your essay consists of an interesting combination of experimental data, historical remarks, theoretical analysis, and epistemological considerations.

      I found interesting your quantity Q. In my work Positive Definite Phase Space Quantum Mechanics, I obtain a similar quantity proportional to (h^2/m) that measures the deviation from Newtonian behaviour.

      I completely agree with you that "attempts to explain wave properties of particles have serious flaws". I have devoted part of my essay to criticize some incorrect assumption taken in quantum mechanics.

      Regards