Ken

Congratulations on beautifully arguing possibly the most important case ever for the future of physics. You'll find in my essay that I have actually commenced an ontological construction with mechanisms and logic based unknowingly on the principles you identify.

A wonderful debag of the anthropocentric view which gelled with my own views was Henrich J. Heine S. Norenzaya A doi:10.1038/466029a and I found we've still used anthropecentricity in CMBR anisotropy analysis and the lack of a consistent theory for the celestial plane (see my ref USNO Circ 179), which I have resolved, but in a way not familiar to Newtonian Humankind with current interpretations of relativity theory and QM.

The one issue I do have with your text is that one small word; 'one' is missing, in; "...there is no (ONE) preferred frame of reference." My reasons should become clear, related to the kinetic hierarchical 'nesting' of the Discrete Field Model. (You may recall we found commonality last year).

I've established real physical spacetime boundaries, and the quantum mechanism at work there implementing the relativistic effects observed.

The reason current mathematics do not map back to reality is identified and analysed. I thus revert to logic; the structure of Truth Propositional Logic' with an application to dynamic (Modal) logic (PDL) overcoming limitations of Cartesian systems in (geometric) vector space, to where the invalidity of motion in geometry extends. I suggest we need better maths and a new way of thinking in visualising evolutions of interactions of non zero spatial particles over non zero time.

Of course your analysis and rationale, as well as it's acceptability. go way beyond my own faltering explorations and I hope you may have produced the winning essay. The concept desperately needs exposure to the mainstream community.

Very well done. And I greatly look forward to your comments on mine.

Peter

    Dear Ken,

    Thank you for the wonderful read. A few questions come to mind; please pardon their length.

    1. It makes perfect sense to regard initial and final conditions as logical input in the classical setting and to thus obtain a unique solution by means of stationary action, but I am not clear on how you avoid a large configuration space in the quantum setting. If you take background-independence seriously, then Feynman's approach seems to lead inevitably to a sum over universes, rather than over different paths in a single universe, since the universe is not merely a static background on which the paths are traced out. Further, all the universes are a priori relevant, even though the wild ones interfere destructively. You point out that since "only the actual measurement occurs," the "state" need not "keep track of all possible future measurements," but doesn't any specified pair of measurements still involve a vast number of intervening configurations?

    2. You can, of course, derive a (first-order) Schrodinger-type equation under very general conditions using Feynman's approach; Feynman does this for ordinary quantum theory in his 1948 paper, and I mentioned such an equation in my essay

    On the Foundational Assumptions of Modern Physics

    in a much different setting. You mention that "there's nothing wrong with" second-order equations such as those in GR in the Lagrangian setting. Is it then known how to derive such equations in a general sum-over-histories setting?

    3. The "pathology" of the configuration spaces involved in quantum theory depend a great deal on what you assume about the universes involved. For example, a causal set configuration space is not much worse than a causal set. Do you object to configuration spaces as "models of reality" in general, or just the huge configuration spaces of manifolds over the continuum?

    4. On the final page of your essay, you criticize the view that the "past causes the future by some algorithmic process." Now, my own view is as causal as possible, but also as Lagrangian as possible, as you can see from my essay. I am not sure why we must abandon causality to embrace the Lagrangian paradigm. Could it possibly be only a disagreement of terminology bound up in the qualifier "algorithmic process?" The reason I ask is because I tend toward the view that the metric properties of spacetime are a way of talking about actual relations between events, rather than determining which events "could be" related (i.e. by being time-like separated). In both cases we are talking about what "actually happens." What makes the "initial" condition initial and the "terminal" condition terminal if they are not causally related? Do you regard time as more fundamental than causality?

    5. There is always the potential for self-referential difficulty when humans criticize the "anthropocentric" theories of other humans. Lagrange was human after all, and so are you and I, yet all of us prefer the Lagrangian approach to the Newtonian. Now, I will tell you what I think is anthropocentric and too good to be true: the continuum. From the perspective of order theory, the continuum is absurdly convenient and congenial to human calculation, but seems to have no reasonable claim as the fundamental building block of physics. Do you think the continuum is a more reasonable assumption than causality, for instance? What about four dimensions? Wouldn't it be nice to have a theory that predicts this, rather than simply taking a four-dimensional manifold for granted and solving boundary value problems on it?

    I'd be grateful for any thoughts on these issues. Again, a fantastic essay. Take care,

    Ben Dribus

      Dear Ken Wharton,

      It's great to see you back. Your current essay is one of the most enjoyable of this contest, and your perspective on this major issue is well thought out. Like many of us, you continue to evolve your previous essays into implied consequences.

      I will come back with a longer comment, but a houseful of family and guests calls.

      Congratulations on what I perceive as a winning essay!

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

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        Ken,

        I will agree that the universe is not a computer, but it is my opinion it has more complicated interactions than any computer we can imagine.

        Pg 8: "We can treat the universe as a global, fourdimensional boundary-value problem, where each subset of the universe can be solved in exactly the same manner, with exactly the same rules."

        I notice the term "subset" appeared once in your essay in the above sentence.

        From my anthropocentric viewpoint, I can envision one subset encompassing the term "energy", which has some type of electromagnetic form. I make no presumptions why it exists, it simply exists as a subset within the boundary. Now all that needs to be done is to develop a mathematical algorithm of some form that applies to "energy" which will keep it within the prescribed boundary. To avoid the controversies that have created this essay contest, the mathematical algorithm should be based upon a non-controversial physical law that predates the current quantum controversy, plus use 2000 year old mathematics as a basis. It would be desirable if any sizes are involved, they will be mutually self-defined by the mathematical algorithm.

        Just such a algorithm form exists, as it mutually defines the sizes of the geometric structures used to represent basic electromagnetic parameters without needing to know any size ahead of time.

        The IEEE article cited in topic 1294, titled, "A methodology to define physical constants using mathematical constants", defines the sizes and associated values of energy. The structure of the algorithm allows the content to be extracted using trigonometric, algebraic and geometric mathematical processes.

        I stated in the IEEE article Summary, "If one fundamental physical constant can be identified by a pair of simple right triangles based upon mathematical constants, it raises the issue that other fundamental physical constants might be identified using the same or other geometric structures."

        Please note that "time", as an event duration, is a function of the presence of "energy".

        Geometric structures are based upon rules, and the concept presented in the IEEE paper suggests geometric rules are at least a subset of the rules that govern the activity of the universe.

        I looked at the San Jose State faculty list, and while there, looked for Dr. Friedemann Freund. I notice he wasn't listed. I had corresponded with him for many years, but had a several year hiatus where I did not keep up with his activities. Has he retired from the faculty?

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          Great essay Ken. You're making some very good noises there--of the type that ring true (and dare I say it, make sense). Best of luck in the contest.

          Peter

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          Dear Prof. Wharton,

          I found your essay to be very original, and particularly the fact that it pointed out some aspect of our deepest understanding that I was not aware of was particularly refreshing.

          It appears to me that your view of the LSU implies a "block universe" but I did not see any remark to that effect. Is that correct? If that is the case, does it also open the door to violations in causality? Finally, it seems to me that an acceptance of an LSU interpretation of entanglement "rationalizes away" the conceptual difficulties it poses. Should we not be careful that we don't "give up to soon" before we can find an explanation of a puzzling phenomenon?

          I found it interesting that on two tangential points your essay and mine have complete agreement:

          The notion that there are still hidden forms of anthropocentrism embedded in our current worldviews, and that the Path integral formulation provides a more fundamental way of understanding quantum mechanics. I hope that you may find the time to take a look at my essay and provide constructive feedback and criticism. I'd particularly appreciate your perspective on whether your think that some of the ideas in there are more in accord with the NSU or the LSU.

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            Hi Ken, here are the passages from your essay to keep in mind for the comments below:

            If one wants to place quantum theory into the spacetime of GR,

            one must use the Lagrangian Schema, solving the

            problem "all at once". Only then can the solution

            take into account the actual future measurement

            which, recall, is imposed as a boundary constraint

            on L. So an LSU-minded physicist, when encountering

            entanglement, would have no reason to add new

            dimensions. The "spooky" link between entangled

            particles would merely be joint correlations enforced

            by virtue of both particles contributing to the same

            global action.[12]

            We can treat the universe as a global, four dimensional

            boundary-value problem, where each subset of the universe can be solved in exactly the

            same manner, with exactly the same rules. Stories

            can be told about what happens between quantum

            measurements, and those very measurements can be

            enfolded in a bigger region, to simultaneously tell

            a bigger story.

            Beautiful essay, and as you know, we are with you on: rejecting Hilbert space realism and realism about Schrodinger dynamics, block universe, and the use of future boundary conditions ( see http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1393 for example). But we want to explore the logic of your essay as a stalking horse. As you know, both the NM formalism and the LM formalism are compatible with either a block universe or say presentism. And as you know, both the LM and NM formalism can be done with or without a future boundary condition. So nothing ontological follows from the use or dis-use of these formalisms, which is to say they must be interpreted to get out ontological conclusions such as block universe. So you have not given us any argument for a block universe apart from the claim that it would allow us to get rid of Hilbert space. But even if you had argued for a block universe, is block universe either necessary or sufficient for the non-existence of Hilbert space? Is a block universe either necessary or sufficient for a time-symmetric account of QM which provides a local account of entanglement? None of these conclusions are established in your essay. So you have not argued for a block universe directly and you have not established its necessity to your ONTOLOGICAL conclusion about LSU over NSU. We already knew that a psi-epistemic account makes the measurement problem go away and we already knew that future boundary conditions could be used to tell a local story about entanglement, nothing new there. But from this it doesn't follow that the future is equally real or 'already there'. What you need is an argument to the effect that if NSU is true and block universe false then getting rid of Hilbert space, use future boundary conditions, etc., becomes much harder, but there is no such argument in your essay. As far as we can see, someone could (and they do) still believe in NSU/reject block universe and adopt all your other suggestions. In your defense you do suggest the possibility of finding a formalism that demands the use of future boundary conditions, that would certainly be a good start.

            Second, your essay doesn't provide us with any positive alternative interpretation of either NRQM or QFT. The only thing we can conclude is that you want a psi-epistemic account and to preserve locality. So we would like to see your interpretation of QM, hear how it helps with larger problems about unification, how it explains presumably unique QM phenomena like discrete outcomes, etc. It is clear that you want "QM systems" to have definite position values with worldlines and continuous mediation "between measurements". In other words, in spite of all your NSU bashing, you still insist on that type of explanation for the QM so long as it's in spacetime and not Hilbert space; so for you, even if you found your new formalism that demanded the use of future boundary conditions, you still assume there would always be a 3+1 type explanation of a NM sort between the measurements, you just have to work backwards to get it. So in fact, the only thing non-NSU-like about your universe is that it's a block universe, but as we suggested above, it isn't clear that is much of a difference maker by itself. Also notice that the use of future boundary conditions doesn't require that QM systems have definite worldlines and the only reason to assume they must is some sort of NSU prejudice.

            Ken says the following at the end of his essay:

            We can treat the universe as a global, four-dimensional

            boundary-value problem, where each

            subset of the universe can be solved in exactly the

            same manner, with exactly the same rules. Stories

            can be told about what happens between quantum

            measurements, and those very measurements can be

            enfolded in a bigger region, to simultaneously tell

            a bigger story. And most importantly, such models

            will suggest further models, with alterations that

            only make sense in a Lagrangian framework { perhaps

            a local constraint like L=0, or treating the

            Euler-Lagrange equations as just an approximation

            to a fundamentally underdetermined problem.

            So for anyone in the audience listening, our post to Ken here is one shot in a long series of exchanges where we try to convince him that he simply doesn't go far enough down the rabbit hole in his rejection of NSU. If you want to see what a complete rejection of NSU-type thinking (we call it dynamism) really looks like and what it can do well beyond just interpreting QM, read our essay. We don't write as well as Ken unfortunately, but we do paint a more detailed picture. In our essay you will find that our fundamental equation (or toy model of it anyway) might be the sort of new fundamental explanation that Ken is looking for. But our account requires giving up much more of the NSU-type picture than Ken's does. The pay-off however, is much greater across the board.

              Thanks, glad it caught your interest. I suspect we're talking about two very different things, however. Perhaps you're concerned with objects that in principle follow some well-defined dynamical equations, but those equations just happen to be too complex to calculate to the required precision. I'm concerned with global rules that apply on the level of the Lagrangian density and the action, but have no corresponding Newtonian-style equations that always can describe time-evolution from a given state.

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              I'm largely following David Tong and Jan Zaanen in reference to the fermion sign problem. "[T]oo complex to calculate with the required precision" doesn't even begin to describe what Zaanen calls "the nightmare of modern physics." There's no known mathematics capable of dealing with it and if Matthias Troyer and Uwe-Jens Wiese are right there probably won't be.

              But thanks very much for the response.

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              Dear Dr Wharton

              First quote from your essay: "The LSU blends time and space together just

              like GR, while the NSU has to grapple with a dynamic evolution that seems to single out time as\special".

              In my essay I write about this issue ,but contrary.

              See my letter to Dr Stephen Weinberg.

              http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1413

                Hi Peter,

                I'm afraid that I still can't find the commonality between our ideas, but thanks for your nice words, and best of luck in the contest.

                Dear Ben,

                Thank you very much for the thoughtful questions. You're asking a lot of the same questions that I am, as I pursue this research program. Here are some attempts at answers, based on my current thinking. (Numbers match to your questions.)

                1) The key question is why the path integral works in the first place. If you have to sum first, and then square, then you're correct: one needs all the paths to be "real". But there's another way to "double" the paths so that you never need to square the sum (Sinha and Sorkin, 1991), in which case one can imagine that the universe is just choosing one of these possibilities (weighted appropriately), and the unchosen paths aren't "real". The problem with this, as noted in that paper, is that if one is taking the particle perspective, then some of those probability weights have to be negative, in order to get interference. BUT -- I currently think that a field-configuration-path view can solve this problem, especially if a similar "doubling" is used. (To see my arguments for fields vs. particles, you can try my previous essay in this series, "quantum theory without quantization".) This is actually my main research focus right now.

                2) Feynman's approach does indeed take the Lagrangian that classically yields a real, second-order Euler-Lagrange equation, and (via the path integral) makes equivalent predictions to a complex, first-order Schrodinger equation. (Dropping one order is offset by the real->complex transition.) But I'm not interested in generating NSU-style equations... The question is how to quantize a classical Lagrangian (such as GR's) without ever making such a step in the first place. No, it's not known how to do this yet, and I don't know of anyone else who is really working on it. (I'm looking forward to reading your paper, and hope to get to it soon.)

                3) The latter. I mean, look at how beautiful GR is, with a few brilliant principles guiding the whole thing. Then look at the conceptual mess of QM and QFT. Which is more likely to be on the right track, especially when it comes to spacetime? Sure, maybe GR is also incorrect at some level, but it seems to be to be closer to the ultimate truth than QM (again, especially when it comes to spacetime).

                4) Well, in any unified theory along the lines that I envision, the metric would also be solved "all at once", along with any matter fields. So an external hypersurface boundary condition on a manifold would generate the structure of the spacetime within that boundary as an effect. Is this giving up traditional causality? Sure. But traditional causality is just another aspect of the NSU. (Also, see the recent piece on my work with Huw Price.)

                Maybe one way to think about it is to make an analogy with a high-Q laser cavity that contains a standing-wave EM field. Flipping time and space, the analogy to the NSU view would be that the left mirror causes the field, and the nodes of the field then determine where the right mirror is allowed to be. (Sort of a left-to-right causal order.) The LSU view is that both mirrors determine the allowed modes of the field that can be inside the cavity. Extending the field to include the spacetime metric, this solution would also determine how far apart the mirrors were in the first place. The global solution might then still look like a "left-to-right causal" relationship, but it would be an illusion.

                5) Yes, I like the continuum -- and here I'll again point you to my last essay, 'quantum theory without quantization'. If it's not still on the fqxi site, a copy is here. Is this anthropocentric? I don't see how, but maybe it's a blind spot of mine. (Furthermore, I don't like Planck scale arguments for discreteness, because those scales aren't Lorentz invariant. Doubly special relativity doesn't solve the problem, I don't think, without introducing bigger problems at macroscopic scales.)

                As far as why we live in 4D, sure, I'd like to know that, but would be content with an ultimate theory that took that as a given. My guess is that once we found an ultimate theory, we could experiment with other dimensionalities and at least narrow down the coherent possibilities. But it seems tough to do that without a working ultimate theory.

                Thanks again for some great questions!

                Ken

                Hi Edwin,

                Thanks for the kind words! I'll be looking forward to your comments.

                Ah, in that case there might be more overlap than I thought. I'll do some reading and let you know if I find any connections.

                Thanks, Peter -- good luck to you as well.

                Frank, I'm afraid I don't really follow much of your comment, but good luck developing your ideas. Friedemann is an adjunct faculty member in our department, but he doesn't teach here, and is mostly at SETI. He's working on some very interesting things these days...

                Hi Armin,

                Yes, the LSU assumes a block universe, but so does the NSU and all of modern physics, as I see it. (With the exception of the measurement problem as applied to the standard quantum state; for more on this telling mismatch you'll have to dig up my entry to the very first FQXi contest.)

                Denying a block universe is basically saying that we're parameterizing physics all wrong, and we shouldn't have functions that look like the classical Electric field E(x,y,z,t), but instead things like E(x,y,z,t_clock,t_obs), where t_clock is usual time and t_obs is the time at which one is discussing E. Maybe someone will develop such a physical theory, but until they do, physics assumes a block universe.

                As for your second question, it depends on what you mean by "violations in causality". See the recent piece on my work with Huw Price.

                Also, I'm not trying to "rationalize" away entanglement -- I'm trying to come up with a spacetime-based LSU model that quantitatively yields all of the same correlations as the standard configuration space version. I don't have it yet, but there are no conceptual show-stoppers. As for whether I'm 'giving up too soon'... I'm actually just exploring an alternate path towards the same goal. I don't think the century-old NSU-approach to quantum phenomena would suffer if a few researchers headed off in a new, promising direction. :-)

                If your entry concerns the path integral, I'll put it near the top of my to-read-list... Thanks for the pointer!

                Hi Yuri,

                I think I disagree with Weinberg's response to your interesting question -- I don't think that you can discretize space while not discretizing time, at least not in any GR-friendly way.

                That said, I'm not a particular fan of discretization at all -- at least not the conventional justifications for it. (That was the last essay contest, which I linked to above.)

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                My essay devoted at first to splitting space from time.

                GR-is not completed theory,as SR.Why i must be friendly to her?