Is Life Fundamental? by Sara Imari Walker

Giovanni wrote:

"In quantum-gravity research there is a long-standing effort

of understanding how spacetime should be described when both

Planck's constant ~ and Newton's constant GN are nonnegligible.

We cannot claim much success addressing this issue."

Giovanni,

what mean "nonnegligible"?

Give me please more detail...

I am not sure if research has been done with phase structure in Progogine's open thermodynamics. Open thermodynamics is not on the same solid foundation thermodynamics of closed systems is on. There might be some research on this however which one could search out. If this has not been seriously looked at it could represent a considerable challenge.

Cheers LC

Sara Imari Walker,

The human race may have been forced to become Reductionists simply to stay alive. One way to assure command over the elements that one must face for survival is to become a "Reductionist" and absorb all the physical knowledge required for assuring one's survival. A total "Holistic" approach to life may suffer extinction if the basic Reductionist manifestos "physically correlated event" concepts are not comprehended - like predicting the season for planting, etc, etc.... a club kills quicker then a stick, etc, etc. It therefore appears that human life is caught exactly in the middle of Reductionist & Holistic because for each Reductionist "learned action" we build a physical event string of correlation having Holistic value (i.e., a correlation between events, ie., comparison information). It seems like our thoughts may be caught in the very middle of building a physical Reductionist model (say the standard model of physics for instance) for the Holistic purposes of achievement, completion, curiosity, all Holistic.

If you agree with the statement that Reductionism can feed a Holistic quality, and visa versa, then we may consider that we have a superposition of Holistic and Reductionist information going into "any" event (biological included) - our two brain hemispheres could accommodate the dissociation of Holistic and Reductionist information with our final physical actions that explore a common ground that is a balanced reaction to support the two extreme lines of thought, Reductionist and Holistic. It would be as if life has an "all from one" and "one from all" way of thinking and acting ... local, global... one physically affects all ..... all physically affect one ...

Assume we can dissect information on BOTH Reductionist and Holistic grounds, can we find a model that allows us to combine the two seemingly extreme set's of information? To accommodate these extreme sets of information, we might want to look at the duals in string theory as providing a mathematical avenue to physically describe this information. "Astronomy" and "quantum physics" certainly fit into the Holistic and Reductionist information categories, respectively ... which brings us back to unification of measurable information. This is where ADS/CFT (super symmetry) tells us that that information regarding that which is extremely large (of cosmic size) can be exactly described by measuring information of that which is extremely small (sounds like a quantum worls to me)!! There appears to be a perfect reflection of information content (T dual) if one considers the conformal quantum field as the "information space" that can possibly be utilized to model BOTH the Holistic and Reductionist information. This implies that the quantum physicist and the astronomer will be capable of predicting each others information findings when they find the correct way to interpret the correlation of each bit of information whose common ground analysis provides the actions incurred by the masses ... whether they be atoms, cells, organs, humans, ecosystems, planet, galaxy, universe... The exact correlation of Holistic to Reductionist information (super symmetric string theory dual) may provide the proper boundary conditions for life to emerge and exist in a manner that maintains life by adhering to information gathered by the Reductionist (sustains physical life) but at a cost of losing sight of the Holistic contribution that actually provides half of the net information regarding any event (biological events included). This implies that by focusing on reductionism we may defocus on Holistic information and visa versa (possibly the result of information existing in a hyperbolic space, but, that's another story)... as if information used for physical reasoning has a Reductionist Holistic switch (the 2 sheets in the hyperbolic space) ... when the fact is that the switch has been set to 50% for everything that our senses that feed our conscious mind w/ information can measure (a Feynman/Wheeler emitter/absorber argument used for the 50% ... but... that's again another story).

Anyway, I greatly enjoyed your article and appreciated your use of the word "information" extensively. I believe that we must define everything measurable simply as "information" (L. Suskind methodology) to build a model that allows this information to sustain life by merging both the Reductionist and Holistic information to drive all of life's measurable information (to which a physical action is the net result of the balance achieved between Reductionist and Holistic information that is reasoned out between the brains hemispheres). This top/down approach also appears to be on the minds of many more essay authors, including that by G. Ellis whose essay had many overtones of what you state you measure and observe. Maybe with information provided by J. Barbour's shape dynamics and G. Ellis's top/down approach you can model (via the string theory basis) the exact living biological shape and physical actions of a known life form that uses BOTH Holistic and Reductionist information to sustain life. You may then begin to predict your biological measures w/ functional stability?

Best Regards,

Anthony DiCarlo

Hello Ms Walker and Mr Zenil,

I like these kind of discussions.Thanks for that :)

I beleive strongly that the evolution is a main part of the puzzle. The cybernetic seems very relevant when we consider the transfert of informations with the energy and its entropical arrow of times. The encoding is very complex, I return about the importance of the serie of spherical volumes considering the serie of uniqueness. The encodings can be synchronized.

The algorythms of evolution are so complex that it seems difficult to know the main code, the main central sphere of series of uniqueness.It is like trying to see our central universal sphere of our universal sphere.The walls are indeed far. We have our limits. All can be quantized if we begin with this serie of uniqueness , and the rotations and the volumes ....so it permit to imply the comportments and properties of spheres of light. The rotations of the light imply the mass, the energy , the light,the space. So with the volumes and the complexity of codings , it becomes very relevant when all is quantized in a pure road of evolution of mass. In a simple resume. The universal system can be computed with relevance with stil, I am insisting a lot :), the serie of uniqueness and its finite number, so we have quantum spheres, serie finite.....mcosV=constant. and E= mc² can be optimsed with the two others motions of the spheres of light so the spinal rotaion and the orbital rotation. The angles are relevant considering the informations of evolution. The electromagnetism seems very very complex and the volumes very small compared with the central spheres. So the informations are relevant there. The DNA and the RNA with their architecture of spheres (HCNOP) are relevant for the biological algorythmic building. The link OH ...O with the complementary polynucleotids and the serie of uniqueness are relevant for the tranfert of informations. The hydrogen bridge and the closed links of the adenin, guanin, thymin and cytosin more the P are intriguing when we fractalize the series of uniqueness.So we go towards the main central spheres, so the main codes. The road is very complex, and more we go towards these singularities, more the difficulties are important.And more the volumes of spheres also. The rotations of synchronizations, sortings of informations become very relevant when the oscillations are in harmony with the rotations, the rotations of volumes so are in synchronizations.It is the reason why probably all DNA is unique. We have all our velocities of rotations in fact. If the synchronizations of these rotations and if the increase of mass are correlated, more the variable volumes and the density.and if the serie of uniqueness of bosonic informations , so the light is inserted , it becomes relevant when the rotating spherical volumes are analyzed. The synchronizations of rotating spheres answer to a lot of things. The stability of the mass is seen with logic and the linearity of light also. So the synchro of volumes also, like the sortings.It is fascinating all this encoding of evolution.

Thanking you for these discussions. Good luck in this contest.

Regards

Hi Sara. There is no true or ultimate difference between what is animate and inanimate because the self represents, forms, and experiences a comprehensive approximation of experience in general by combining conscious and unconscious experience. Accordingly, the fundamental and general unification of physics involves direct bodily experience (seen, felt, AND touched) -- as the ultimate understanding of physics combines, balances, and includes opposites in conjunction with our growth and becoming other than we are. DO YOU AGREE? What are your thoughts on this please?

Dear Sara Imari Walker,

I'm not QUITE sure what to make of your essay in the context of this competition.It is eloquently written. You clearly set out a point of view. I am not sure you have said which -basic- physical assumptions are wrong, though you have said that bottom up causation from chemistry to life may be inadequate to account for living things.

I'm not sure you aren't in part creating a non existent problem by saying that there is a lack of knowledge about the distinction between life and non life. What distinguishes a living thing from a non living thing is summed up by the Characteristics of living things: movement, excretion, respiration, reproduction, irritability, nutrition and growth. The viruses are not life but complex chemistry on the boundary between living and non living as they can not autonomously reproduce but require the biochemistry and structure of a host cell. Combustion too is just chemistry, it does not have a distinct structure that separates it from the environment. Which my son has informed me is now taught at High School as another characteristic of a living rather than non living things. (Probably to overcome the perennial question: why isn't fire alive?) As an astrobiologist you would know all that though.

A virus does contain encoded information but that in itself does not make it alive. A computer programme contains encoded information but it does not make it alive. It is the higher function characteristics or potential for those higher function characteristics of living things that makes them alive. At least according to current widely accepted and taught definitions of life. Changing the definition of living rather than non living to one of encoded information content makes me a little uneasy, as it could be a way of giving a living definition to AI or advanced robotic inventions.

Just because a virus is non living and less complex than a living organism it does not mean it is not highly evolved. Viruses are adapted to their living hosts, they are not simple precursors of life.

I'm sorry if those responses sound too critical.It is a very readable, thought provoking essay. I agree with your conclusion. Looking at the development of information and the control it allows, within (and between) living systems, could be useful in pinpointing a transition from inanimate chemistry to pre-living chemistry to biochemistry.

Good luck, kind regards Georgina.

Dear Sara:

Benjamin Dribus draw my attention on your intriging essay, which after reading I appreceate very much. Indeed reductionism ad infinitum is not working, it is useful upto certain scales.

In "THE CONSCIOUSNESS CONNECTION" I explain the role of consciousness, which of course is a perception of my image of "reality". As Ben said :"if you take these things seriously and put them together with my causal approach, you get a very complex (but interesting) picture of time and consciousness".

I hope you will take the time to read and rate "The Consciousness Connection" and look forward for your comments.

Wilhelmus

Dear Mrs. Walker

It is a nice presentation of informatics of life. Maybe you should also stress more that top-down causation exists also in inanimate world, but it is much less presented. You also found analogy with quantum physics. I hope that this top-down causation of information can help at simulations of computer life and in simulations of evolution?

But, higher levels which causes on life, are also decisions. Decisions are things of consciousness. (If mainstream explanations of Libet experiment can be replaced. One is my explanation at the end of the essay.) I also wrote that memory is connected with existence of consciousness. Maybe we will find connection of this with your and Tononi's explanation.

Here, quantum consciousness is also possible to include. Namely, non-quantum physics is one-optional, if someone can calculate everything, he can calculate future events. (Let us ignore Chaos theory.) Thus we need explanations of decisions, whose can be explained only with quantum theory. There is a lot of other arguments for quantum consciousness. Something is written in my essay, in my other article, and in my first essay.

In the last part of my essay I wrote about consciousness. However, consciousness is a consequence of matter. But what is matter, is not known enough. What is matter, will be given by a quantum gravity theory. So, in the first part of article I try to answer this question. You will see that quantum theory is a lot of connected with information, Brukner, not only consciousness. I do not believe that consciousness arise from nowadays physics. I believe in panpsychism, still more than Koch.

You wrote that present physics is enough to explain to consciousness. I claim that this is not true. So here we have possibility to put arguments and anti-arguments. The other my claim is that consciousness is a quantum phenomenon. I guess that here we also do not agree? Maybe one day an experiments will be possible to test existence of non-quantum consciousness, to test Tononi's idea, to test my idea of memory background of consciousness, and to test idea of panpsychism.

Best regards, Janko Kokosar

p.s.

At the end of primary school it should be already clearly mentioned to schoolpersons that consciousness is not yet explained and that a lot of possibilities is open. But this is not mentioned even at university. My opinion is that this is a consequence of subconscious conspiracy of mainstream science to serve their truth. Do you agree with this?

Hi Sara, thanks for your reply and clarifying a few points.

The characteristics of living things pertain to groups of organisms and not necessarily any one individual. So whereas in an ant colony there is only one reproducing female the non fertile females are still considered living things because they are the same type of organism.Viruses on the other hand can never reproduce themselves independently because they lack the "machinery" to do so. I wouldn't regard mitochondria as living things either, though they may have long ago been independent unicellular organisms. They now lack the necessary completeness to be regarded as living in their own right.

There is perhaps a subtle but -useful- difference between the concept of an organism and a living thing. While living things are organisms, there is also the possibility of other natural forms that might be regarded as organisms but not necessarily life. I would put the viruses and mitochondria in that category, (between living and non living). The chemistry is not mere chemistry but organised giving function. That does tie in with your point about information content because what does it take to be an organism? Information that builds the structure enabling function.

The other important feature, for me, of all (Earth) life is that it shares the same code. Whether fungus, plant, microbe or animal. The exception being the recently artificially created organisms with extra base pairs. Which I regard as "alien" and potentially dangerous to all natural Earth life, if it ever escaped and became a competitor. Organisms on other planets, descended from Earth life perhaps by panspermia, or from a common ancestor from which Earth life also developed could be regarded as part of or an addition to the "kingdoms of life". However if it has a very different information base then it is not part of that, even though it is an autonomous organism. That could be regarded as a kind of prejudice but it is stemming from a deep appreciation that all of the Earth's life forms are related and possibly unique in the universe.

Dear Sara,

Thanks for the detailed response! Regarding the possibility that life may be inherently quantum-mechanical, I expect at least that this is the case with consciousness. This is principally because of the need to escape determinism on self-referential grounds. In particular, I am not much a believer in classical digital strong AI.

With regard to the causal efficacy of information in fundamental physics, I realize now that I was probably using the word "information" in a different sense than you. What I was referring to was the prevalence in the field of quantum gravity of models involving a fundamental scale with irreducible, indistinguishable elements. The usual distinction between "information" and the physical system used to encode it is no longer clear at this level. Ordinarily, this distinction is justified by the fact that there are many different ways to encode information physically, with no particular method preferable to the others. At the fundamental scale, however, there is a unique "preferred" physical encoding of the "information" in a system: namely the system itself.

This is related to entropy; you've probably heard the example involving a deck of playing cards: you can associated an entropy to the deck ignoring everything except that there are 52 distinguishable objects. However, if you consider the thermodynamic entropy of all the molecules in the deck, it is vastly greater. Relating entropy to information, the point is that the existence of a fundamental scale would provide a bottom to this kind of consideration; you could associate a measure called THE entropy to any system. Mathematically, this is related to things like compression and Kolmogorov complexity. Maybe this justifies the "it-from-bit" view in a sense. Take care,

Ben