Lev

From the brief description of informational classes in your essay I could not imagine how they can be used for example to describe the motion of a particle in a gravitational field - what kind of math would be used there?

Oh my reference to robot physicists was my attempt at a humorous expression of my bafflement about your scheme. An experience of space is a fundamental human sensation so the laws of our physics are geared to that. Humans are not necessary for the universe to function of course, and it seemed to me that if some mechanical artificial intelligence (robots) were to derive the laws of physics they might use a scheme such as the one you are advocating.

@"the spatial 'propagation' of the instantiated ETS events might be similar to the process of wave propagation as proposed by Huygens."

I now understand what you are saying but not how ETS events can describe the propagation of light.

    Vladimir,

    1. "From the brief description of informational classes in your essay I could not imagine how they can be used for example to describe the motion of a particle in a gravitational field - what kind of math would be used there?"

    As you can imagine, I can only speculate here. The "motion" of particle is represented by a struct, and the "gravitational field" is also captured by a very large struct, since the field emerged gradually during the formation of a particular object or objects, as for example, in the formation of Earth and Sun.

    2. "An experience of space is a fundamental human sensation so the laws of our physics are geared to that."

    As you might have guessed, the development of ETS formalism was mainly motivated by the desire to unlock the nature of our perceptual mechanism, which I suggest was driven by the proposed structural representation.

    3. "I now understand what you are saying but not how ETS events can describe the propagation of light."

    In order to properly address this question we need to discover (experimentally) the structure of the events associated with the propagation of light. We don't even know if there is one or several events involved, not talking about their structure. But my point is that if the structure of the corresponding events is something like that depicted in Fig.5, this would explain *very naturally* the mysterious "wave-particle duality".

    By the way, I forgot to ask you if you looked at the only example I gave in the essay (in the endnote (iv) ). That is a must for getting at least some feeling for the formalism.

    Cheers, Lev

    Vladimir,

    I forgot to comment on the following your point:

    "using classes seems an artificial top-down coarse approach to describe what in the end would be the most delicate operations of nature at the sub-atomic level."

    As you may know, it is physics that approached nature in a "top-down coarse approach" and eventually met with the substantial difficulties in QM, where one has to deal with the "bottom" side of reality.

    The ETS struct is a suggested bottom-up approach to the representation of "reality". However, what gradually became clear to me--and independently, to some extent, to some physicists--is that the basis of such approach inevitably leads outside the conventional spatial framework.

    Physicists are not yet comfortable to think and to talk in terms of new forms of data representation, but this will come once you started on the path leading outside the spatial forms of data representation.

    The shameless game of pulling down the entries with the higher scores continues unabated ;-) :

    3, 1, 10, 2, 6, 5, 5, 1, 6, 2, 3, 8, 3

    Lev

    Turkeys don't vote for Christmas!

    Paul

    Lev,

    Great to see you back, and with a nicely developed thesis which I think has great value and potential. It's particularly pleasing to see someone actually tacking 'measurement' directly and in a different, non numeric way. I'd really like to hear your views on my suggested division line (proposed by Dirac) between real physical nature and that of numerism.

    I liked your; "let us recall that the concept of measurement, which goes to the roots of our civilization--lies at the very foundation of physics." And again, I've also tackled measurement as a real interaction, trying to define 'detection' as a separate prior interaction and would welcome your views.

    I end up offering a 'real' resolution of the EPR paradox so also saw analogies with your last figure. There is 'hidden information' which i have actually found researching Aspects discarded 'anomalous' data!

    I really enjoyed the read and found much 'hidden likeness', so it would seem churlish to even try to offer any criticism. Excellent job, and fingers crossed for a top finish this year.

    Peter

      Dear Lev,

      Your essay strikes at the root of the foundation of today's physics. You say and I agree, "...in the physics of the last century, the most basic conceptual foundations of today's physics are undoubtedly of spatial origin".

      In your ETS representation,

      - is a point a geometric fiction or a physically real object with extension, (monad)?

      - can a line have length with zero breadth?

      - can a surface having length and breadth but with a zero thickness still exist physically?

      - can abstract objects, existing only in the Platonic realm form a part of a physically real object in this physical realm? (Noting that by Euclid's definitions, the extremities of physically real bodies are surfaces, and if lines physically exist, their extremities are points).

      You can check out Euclid's definitions of the properties of space, here

      [link:farside.ph.utexas.edu/euclid/Elements.pdf/] and [link:aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/java/elements/

      I have a paper submitted in the contest based on a 'foundation of a spatial origin', titled On the road not taken. You may check it out and see how it fits with ETS theory.

      Regards,

      Akinbo.

        Dear Akinbo:

        Thanks for your interest!

        -----------------------------------------

        "In your ETS representation,

        - is a point a geometric fiction or a physically real object with extension, (monad)?

        - can a line have length with zero breadth?

        - can a surface having length and breadth but with a zero thickness still exist physically?

        - can abstract objects, existing only in the Platonic realm form a part of a physically real object in this physical realm? (Noting that by Euclid's definitions, the extremities of physically real bodies are surfaces, and if lines physically exist, their extremities are points)."

        -------------------------------------------

        Please note that ETS says nothing about "Euclid's definitions" As to your last question, please see the concept of instantiation in the essay.

        Best wishes, Lev

        The hyperlinks didnt come out as expected. Accessible links to Euclid's definitions can be found at

        http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/java/elements/

        http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/euclid/Elements.pdf

          Lev

          Thank you for the clarifications. I have looked again at the diagram E1 in section iv and indeed a temporal sequential struct explanation is different than the physical one, and clearer inasfar as the cause-effect chain is concerned. I think I am beginning to see where you are heading. Now if everything in the Universe is connected as a lattice or network at the vacuum level and in matter and energy, such structs become a natural outcome...

          Sorry I have a one-track mind - I was thinking of my Beautiful Universe theory. I am too old to be diverted from the task of developing this model - but I wish you luck with your interesting work.

          Vladimir

          Thanks Vladimir for your interest and your *effort*!

          Unfortunately or fortunately it is mainly not for us but for young people to push the frontiers. But today, *unfortunately* for our times, for some historical reasons, it is the older man that have to "pick up the fallen banner and carry it into the battle". ;-))

          My best wishes to you!

          Peter,

          Thanks! Good to hear from you!

          I'll get back to you in your essay forum.

          Cheers, Lev

          Dear Lev,

          I have reread your essay. ETS has a lot of promise but there is still a lot of work to be done. For example, 'spatial' and 'space' appears 42 times but no where do we know whether the resulting geometry will be Euclidean or a modified form. How I wish you could harmonize your struct with the 'monad' of Leibniz & the Pythagoreans. Then, things will be simpler instead of learning a whole new theory all over. But as I said your theory is quite fundamental.

          Good luck in the contest.

          Akinbo

          *You can check a simple, translated Leibniz monadology referenced in my paper, especially his first 8 paragraphs. Then for space, Check Sir Heath's book on Euclid's geometry, since Geometry is the science of the nature of space.

          Dear Akinbo,

          I intentionally avoided the issue of the nature of space, since if the latter is secondary to the informational representation, we have to proceed with a *very great* caution.

          As to the Leibniz's monads or Whitehead's "actual occasions", I feel that those may only confuse the reader.

          My best wishes, Lev

          Lev

          "Of course, we don't know what "awareness" means scientifically"

          Yes we do. You are falling into the same trap as Edwin and many others, by not first differentiating the knowable from the not-knowable. We can only know (be aware) of what is manifest to us (hypothesis being in effect virtual sensing). In other words , physical existence is that form of existence which is all that is potentially knowable to us. Whether we can attain knowledge of all that is doubtful, but another issue, the point is that the potential was there. Whether there is an alternative is irrelevant, because we cannot know it. And knowing it, ie being aware of it, involves the receipt of physical input (supplemented by the hypothesising of input which could have been received had some identifiable physical issue not prevented that). The subsequent processing of this input received is irrelevant, as that is not physics. The utilisation of representational devices to express this knowledge is another matter.

          Paul

          Lev,

          Very interesting and definitely in sync w/ my entry in many ways. Forgive me if I'm completely misunderstanding, but would you agree that your proposal is something of an evolution/extension of qualitative analysis ushered in by chaos phase-space mapping?

            John,

            My proposal is more transparent than you described it. I propose to replace the ubiquitous numeric form of data representation by the new structural one. Moreover, the nature of this structural, or informational, form of representation (see Fig. E1 in the essay) strongly suggests that it is of non-spatial origin and should be responsible for generating the corresponding spatial representations, or spatial 'reality'.

            Hello, dear Lev!

            Excellent essay, great ideas. I agree completely, «we need to look for fundamentally new formal tools not offered by the present mathematics.» Category "structure" (in Russian, "structure"), "structural memory" to the heart of the new physics. But you must also update the category of "space" and "time", link them to the "matter" and its unconditional states and thus to "seize" the structure of space, understand the nature of time. Good luck in the contest! With respect, Vladimir

              Thank you very much Vladimir! I'll get back to you in your essay forum.

              Moi nailuchshie pozgelaniya, Lev