John C,

Does the earth travel Newton's flow, or Einstein's fourth dimension from yesterday to tomorrow, or does tomorrow become yesterday because the earth rotates?

The question is whether there is some underlaying property called time, or is it an emergent effect of action?

It might seem little different mathematically whether you measure between the crests of two waves/distance, or the rate by which they pass a marker/duration, but much can hide in small differences.

Consider that epicycles were mathematically effective for the very logical reason that we are the center of our own point of observation; We still see the sun moving across the sky. Sometimes though, the way nature puts reality together and how we observe reality are not the same thing.

Mathematics is conceptual reductionism. We use symbols to identify concepts, rather than the phonetic vocalizations of conventional language. With reductionism, you end up with the skeleton, not the seed. When you try to reconstruct reality out of just the hard parts of measurement, it doesn't necessarily explain where it comes from in the first place. Math is a tool, not a god. We can curse the gods, but as you well know, tools can be misused.

Regards,

John M

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John M.

Well put, I would agree on reductionism and math being a tool(s) in general and yet it can reduce concepts only to a point of comparison not 'the seed'. I wonder if that is because I can't remove my human being, from any sort of equation whether argumentative or (rudimentary) math.

I have to go with General Relativity on orbital motion. Newtonian methodology gets close but the predictability of GR in particular of the tiny discrepancy between Newtonian prediction and observation of the precession of Mercury's orbit is inarguable. GR works better. I'd like to learn a bit about MOND however, but what I've found so far is all about arguing it's viability from highly evolved mathematical cosmological models and what I need is a general definitive synopsis to know where to start.

I think the start line on the conceptual plane of yesterday, today and tomorrow has to be today. We really don't know why time extends, but to me it is a fundamental property of existence and I see much of the debate about it being emergent or non-existent as being a mathematical expedient of political science, not hard science. It was business and emergent industry that brought Newton out from the experiments of a few obsessed aristocrats and parlor tricks of the idle rich because business was exclusively owned by them. The three hundred years of dynamic scientific/industrial revolution which resulted has biased scientific thinking towards what business is willing to pay for. Energy. I think that the arguments of time emerging from energy is due to business wanting more time to generate more energy.

Today, for myself, I wish to find meetings of minds to inform myself of what technical limits of definition of terms, firstly in language, are generally agreed upon in convention. How Tom or Eckard ascribe such terms as 'general covariance' might be somewhere around what I think it to means, but I am limited by my own ignorance. To my understanding relating to a fairly limited range of ponderings over magnetic and electrical behavior, I would call 'general co-variance' something like the scale of time and the scale of space are mutually variant due to the natural relationship of light velocity and electric and magnetic fields constance of proportion. But it would probably take more column space than I think polite in a forum. Later jrc

    John C,

    Minkowski's light "cones" do perhaps deserve a closer look. Let me first simplify them by summarizing x^2+y^2+z^2 in the squared radial distance r^2.

    I quote from http://www.iep.utm.edu/proper-t/ : SR connects three distinct quantities to each other: space (r), time (t), and proper time (tau): (r/c)^2 = t^2 - tau^2.

    Minkowski borrowed this concept from Einstein but did not have an explanation for his strange hyperbolic metric -+++ and died soon later from appendix.

    I understand that one has to choose one and only one point r=0 in space and the natural point t_elapsed=0. See my second endnote.

    Incidentally, already Leibniz Leibniz denied that classical physics requires any concept of absolute position in space, and argued that only the notion of 'relative' or 'relational' space' is required. I share his view in this respect.

    Eckard

    John C,

    Here is an interesting interview with someone who has deep knowledge of reconciling theory with reality.

    While I don't have much use on an emotional level with big business, or government, etc, on a conceptual level, I like to keep them in context. They are not wild speculative theories, but are the result of human society dealing with the facts of nature on a very foundational level, as those which become divorced from that reality rather quickly find themselves in hot water and victims of economic darwinism. So don't dismiss the idea that "time is money"/energy, too quickly. If nothing moves, there is no change, so whether or not change creates time, or time creates change, if there is no change, there is no measure of time and physics operates under the assumption that what cannot be measured doesn't exist. So no change, no time, however you explain the relationship.

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    John M. & Eckard

    JM thanks for the Carver Mead interview link. ditto on the zero point particle issue.

    Eckard - proper time (tau) - how is that used? Does it refer to the time parameter of a general spacetime, or to a wavetrain of light in the general frame? My wonderment is that we can't assume that there is any particular metric of scale to describe an arbitrary length of interval for the sake of measurement on a continuum. But that doesn't mean we can assume time and space once tangled up together don't operate as if they each had a physical property of scale. If time scale were the same as space scale would duration expand? would direction extend? Yet intuitively, that is what seems to be the product of blocktime. Perhaps Kalusa's 5th dimension is an underlying covariance of scale between time and space. Ask Tom Ray if he thinks that makes any sense. HEY!! you fellows have the math! maybe someday they'll tell stories about the discovery of timespace! I'm going to take a break. Problem with relativity is that it warps my head before space warps. jrc

    John M,

    While I agree with much of Carver Mead's views, I don't consider the silicon cochlea by Mead and Lyon successful. I am also skeptical about Mead's attribution of the putative time symmetry in the quantum world to coherence. Well, one could infer from coherence over a certain timespan that no change is to be expected. However, didn't the notion time loose its meaning for this expectation because nothing happens? I consider a strict distinction between past and future nonetheless necessary.

    Eckard

    Eckard,

    I certainly agree about the optics. Sigma built a camera based on it, on which I wasted close to a thousand dollars, about ten years ago. It was a flop.

    As for time, they all try incorporating that past to future vector, with the resulting mathematical addenda.

    What I do like about his ideas is that quanta expand to fill their container and contract when balanced by their polarity. I think that eventually gravity can be derived from this, on mass scales. What is gravity, other then a scalar vacuum effect induced from more energy occupying less volume. Just as releasing these quanta en mass creates serious pressure. Think atomic shock waves.

    Like temperature and I argue, time, it is not so much a force requiring its own particles, waves, fields, dimensions, but is an external effect of that electromagnetic attraction and contraction.

    Regards,

    John M

    8 days later

    John Brodix Merryman

    Gravity is .... On this, I agree with Bill Unruh as he describes it below:

    (Time, Gravity, and Quantum Mechanics Bill Unruh 1993)

    "A more accurate way of summarizing the lessons of General Relativity is

    that gravity does not cause time to run differently in different places (e.g., faster far from the earth than near it). Gravity is the unequable flow of time from place to place. It is not that there are two separate phenomena, namely gravity and time and that the one, gravity,affects the other. Rather the theory states that the phenomena we usually ascribe to gravity are actually caused by time's flowing unequably from place to place."

    T.H. Ray

    1 The Sun rises and birds sing. There is an order but no direct causality.

    2 "...whether the observer creates the universe by the act of observing (becomes entangled .." You don't need entanglement for that. We create it all.

    The whole universe is just a big black silent mush of vacuum and EM radiation. Scarry to most. Our reality, light, colors, sound, space, etc. we make it all up, and physics essentially starts from there and tries to keep it around in order to do just that; physics. Everything you perceive as real is illusion. What is real is not perceived but can be figured out. We are perceptual and the universe is operational. The moon is a perception. But for the universe, every particle making the moon is away in time from each other (nothing instantaneous), therefore the moon is just an aggregate of matter across time i.e. not an object or something all at once in one place and one moment. We create and perceive the concept of object.. No "Joy" on the object. This aggregate only becomes the "moon" object when we perceive and conceive it as being there, entire, in one place and one moment. Get it? This is the kind of concepts you have to see past the illusion and understand the simple mush of the universe; what is it made of and how does it work; the substance and cause behind it all.

    3 You confuse "exist longer" with "exist more". The first is about lasting longer (I know about muons) and the second is about a higher probability of existing or moving towards a region, a rather metaphysical concept that physics conveniently replaces by "probability of finding" it there.

    Cox,

    "that it is THE ABSORPTION LINES that Doppler shift!" Come again?

    TH Ray,

    "We know that space is mostly Euclidean" First, there is no space, lines or geometry as they are convenient projections. Secondly, in this context, using the word "is" should be reserved to serious metaphysicists who actually understand and mean it. All other should actually use the words "appears to be" as a wise cautionary approach. The use of the word "is" commands that the user addresses what "is by itself" and not what is created by the observer.

    Cox,

    "...instead of a continuous curve..." Right! The curve is the integration of the change of position in different times... We may trace the path but the curve does not exist per se.

    *** There is such a confusion about time !!!!!!!!!!!!!. The human time is in block i.e. we all get to Christmas at the same time, so we have block past and block present. The Einstein saying about "time is an illusion" is about that block time. Time passes at different rates here and there so no common block past and present, that is the illusion . Time is universal and does run everywhere. Its just that it is not running at the same rate everywhere! Take a fast plane a few times and you will still get to Christmas at the same time as the others! Only your own time was modified (so little).

    Burgan, (IMHO)

    States compare to local time evolution, which is an explosive process, spherical.

    A stable state is in logical existence according to local time and shows no motion (no unsymmetrical existence)

    Unstable states are in illogical existence according to local time and show motion (unsymmetrical existence), motion being the sign of an illogical state in the spontaneous process of resolution.

    Marcel,

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      Marcel

      "that it is the absorption lines that Doppler shift"

      The absorption of frequencies showing up in spectral analysis as gaps in the otherwise continuous (sic) visible spectrum, are the reason that we can determine that an attenuation of wavelength has occurred. The emission source does not emit those frequencies that it absorbs. In a spectrograph the full range of visible spectrum is present from a 'white light' source such as a distant galaxy, but those frequencies that are not emitted are gaps in the attenuated wavelengths. Hence an absorption line of an element that would be in the region of 'green' at the emission source, or laboratory, is 'shifted' towards 'yellow' when the distant source is receding from our observation at a significant rate of speed. The attenuation is of all frequencies emitted and so in the case of red shift, ultraviolet wavelengths are attenuated into visible violet and the far end of red is attenuated into infra red. The diffraction element in the instrument does not distinguish that, only the gaps of non-emitted frequency wavelengths.

      I comprehend what you have said of Bill Unruh's work, I see he's quite prolific. I think where it is misunderstood conceptually is that it approaches the BETA function of the Fitzgerald Contraction from the perspective of light velocity being the benchmark from which a survey is protracted; whereas Lorentz explicitly reformulated it to protract from relative rest towards light velocity, and had stated his premise based on his theoretical prediction that an electric charge if contained in a smaller volume would exhibit greater mass. Your own application of Unruh to causality goes to density of energy in a rest mass, where Lorentz did not consider density in relation to velocity. jrc

      John,

      As you might recall, I don`t think that time exists as a real thing or force in reality. There is no such thing as time, to worm through.

      Marcel,

      It is a fact that our reality is what we experience, so the question is whether our experience creates some basic distortions that can be unraveled. An obvious example is the appearance of the sun traveling across the sky. For most of human history it was quite obvious the earth we stand on is the "firmament" and it was equally obvious the sun does move across the sky. Now we have a better understanding of our position in the cosmos.

      Today it is equally obvious that time "flows" from past to future. Newton declared it an evidently universal flow, which Einstein amended to say it flows faster in some conditions than others.

      Yet how could it be any other way?

      Our experience is as singular entities, moving about in a larger, dynamic context. So while we function linearly, our situation is non-linear and reactive to our actions. Such that in a very physical level, our context effectively goes the opposite direction, in a very distributed fashion. So as we bounce from one event to the next, it really is in a larger equilibrium. What is the effect of this? The form changes, even if it does with a large amount of regularity, as one day follows another. So, as I keep asking, does the earth really travel this "flow of time" from yesterday to tomorrow, or does tomorrow become yesterday because the earth rotates?

      All we see and all we can measure is action, so is time a measure of action, or is action an effect of time?

      Of course, we still see the sun move across the sky and the ground seems endless...

      Regards,

      John M

      Jim,

      I wouldn't go so far as to say there is no such thing as time. Rather it is an effect, much like temperature. Could life exist without either time or temperature? We are a far more complex effect. That doesn't mean we are not real.

      Regards,

      John M

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      Jim on 9/14

      "I don't think time exists as a real thing or force in reality."

      Aside from causality, if time must be inconsequential because there has yet to be a successful rationale that explains irreversibility as a natural function, the results from General Relativity are simply irrelevant.

      It is not simply that in GR if space curves then what do you do about the space it's curved out of ? ... that's not the space it refers to. You have to envision the theory model being it's own co=ordinate system, not in any particular reference frame. Then anywhere in space localized conditions have a conceptualized framework on which to construct a realistic model.

      Gravity is nature's way of conserving space. Removing 'force" is one thing, it's the product of mass and acceleration. Removing 'time' removes the rationale of conservation of space. Pretend there's more space in the universe than there is time to accommodate it all at once. Seen from that perspective... well...oppps.... that thing do kinda curl up on itself, don't it ! It's not the same thing as a mote of dust landing on freshly laid natural varnish so hard that it pushes out a wave and makes a fish-eye. Gravity isn't 'taking away' from space, it's giving it room. jrc

        John C,

        This effect has do to measuring mass points, which do draw together. Yet what expands? Radiation. When you actually consider any gravitational system, it is not a neat inward flow, but leaks radiation, often tremendous amounts. Which eventually cools and then....

        The situation with math is that as conceptual reductionism, various aspects of the larger reality have to be cut/distilled/chipped away, in order to examine the parts you want to see. It is a necessary aspect of knowledge, but then when these "hard parts" get treated as somehow more real than the soft parts, things start to not make sense.

        Regards,

        john M

        John C,

        "You have to envision the theory model being it's own co=ordinate system, not in any particular reference frame. Then anywhere in space localized conditions have a conceptualized framework on which to construct a realistic model."

        My hat is off to you, John C, for being the one voice who actually understands the principles of Einstein's theory, in this morass of confused rhetoric.

        Best,

        Tom

        Tom,

        To which Einstein felt compelled to add the cosmological constant, in order to counteract the effect of gravity, when radiation would seem to have all the properties of already doing so. Remember it is by the redshift of light that space is said to expand and if this is actually due to a function of distance, since it is proportional to distance, then there are a lot of loose ends which could be tied up to other loose ends and we wouldn't need to keep adding garbage out.

        Regards,

        John M

        John M,

        See my post in the "Disproofs ..." thread 15 Sept 10:09 GMT. Please reply here, however, rather than there.

        Best,

        Tom

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        John,

        "Could life exist without either time or temperature?"

        Life does exist without time being a real thing. We don`t need time to exist as something real. All we need, and have, is duration elapsing.

        In our conscious experience of duration elapsing, we assume time is passing, as if time itself were something real.

        The Earth`s rotational motion is the fundamental physical mechanism responsible for maintaining our confusion over the nature of time.

        We have motion in our timeless universe.

        Tom,

        And I think the common field source is the field, ie. space, not a singularity, but I'll spare us both.

        Regards,

        John M

        John, you're conflating two entirely different things. The singularity at creation (big bang) speaks to all space, time, and matter-energy compressed into an unimaginably dense state. A singularity in geometry, is space collapsed to a point; i.e., a local region of a plane or spherical manifold (in general relativity, a black hole with a theoretical singularity at its center).

        There are no singularities in quantum mechanics, because the model is two-dimensional. That's why it is described in complex Hilbert space, which is a 2-dimension space.

        Quantum field theory singularities are conical, i.e., like the "gravity wells" at malls and science museums that you let coins roll down. That's not exactly space collapsed to a point, though one doesn't know where the point ends and the 1 or 2 dimensional space begins.

        So yes -- the common field source is believed to be the quantum field, which is an extension of general relativity. We've always known -- even Einstein knew, and wrote about it extensively -- that general relativity, while mathematically complete, is an incomplete description of physical reality *because* it could not prevent the formation of singularities.

        Best,

        Tom