Thank You Than!

I will look at the Feynman article, and I appreciate your leaving that wonderful excerpt. I already had it in mind to write a comment to Akinbo, in response to his remark above, that when there are multiple theories or methods that give the same result; it is compelling evidence that people are on to something, and that the result has some significance. Mr. Feynman's comment expresses a similar sentiment eloquently, and explores a piece of the puzzle I hadn't considered. The insight that this is evidence of nature's simplicity is priceless!

You have my gratitude, for sharing that here. I shall look at your essay shortly.

Have Fun,

Jonathan

Thanks for stopping by Yuri!

I appreciate the kind regard as well.

Have Fun!

Jonathan

For the delight of all..

I give you the whole paragraph from Feynman's lecture that Than excerpted above.

Jonathan

"I would like to interrupt here to make a remark. The fact that electrodynamics can be written in so many ways - the differential equations of Maxwell, various minimum principles with fields, minimum principles without fields, all different kinds of ways, was something I knew, but I have never understood. It always seems odd to me that the fundamental laws of physics, when discovered, can appear in so many different forms that are not apparently identical at first, but, with a little mathematical fiddling you can show the relationship. An example of that is the Schrödinger equation and the Heisenberg formulation of quantum mechanics. I don't know why this is - it remains a mystery, but it was something I learned from experience. There is always another way to say the same thing that doesn't look at all like the way you said it before. I don't know what the reason for this is. I think it is somehow a representation of the simplicity of nature. A thing like the inverse square law is just right to be represented by the solution of Poisson's equation, which, therefore, is a very different way to say the same thing that doesn't look at all like the way you said it before. I don't know what it means, that nature chooses these curious forms, but maybe that is a way of defining simplicity. Perhaps a thing is simple if you can describe it fully in several different ways without immediately knowing that you are describing the same thing."

Enjoy!

Hello Jonathan,

Big thanks for the very valuable for me to comment and an invitation to read your essay. Yes, indeed, we are going to close on close paths in the same spirit in the basic strategy of Descartes's method of doubt.

I note to myself seen me your important tetrad "points" of thinking about the way to the fundamental structure of reality and the phenomenon of information and its nature:

«Perhaps to catch the universe as form and information at play, we need to see reality as a play. Information as author, forces as director, and objects as actors may be the metaphor we seek. A case can be made, that information is a template for substantial forms, and that objects are a collection of forms (sub-atomic particles, atoms ...) comprised mainly of information and energy - as the prima materia - without which there would be no substance. »

A great metaphor! I use the metaphor of a "network" to catch the "Proteus of nature" (matter) with a hint of goddess forms - Eydotei.

«Patterns of form and formation dance on the stage of the universe, and the dance unfolds for all to behold, but there are always choices of what to focus upon.»

Yes, it is "focusing" - a key concept in the way of grasping the nature of the information and the basic structure of the being (original form) .

«Actors on the Stage need Direction»

"Direction" - the second most important concept. I use a "vector" (in Latin, "bearing", he "who is" and "carrier"). And then move on to the concept of "vector of consciousness" (connecting the Cartesian "res cogitans» and «res extensa» t hrough the "state vector" of physics)

«The reader is reminded that in the 'analog vs. digital 'debate; the author took a stand that the universe is decidedly both analog and digital, if we consider all pertinent aspects of reality. »

I totally agree.

«That is; there is a deficiency to a strictly binary analogy, which can only be overcome by perceiving reality as ternary and the unifying quality as fluid.»

I totally agree. So I build the fundamental generating structure based on the logic of the triunity, developing the ideas of dialectics of Cusa (coincidence of opposites), and Hegel (Hegelian triad), the ideas of Plato (the Platonic solids), and Kant - the idea of a conceptual-figure synthesis.

«There is always an interplay between information becoming stuff, and stuff becoming information, but this takes place on various levels at once.»

I totally agree.

«Just as our universe clearly displays both Quantum and Classical behaviors and attributes, we also reside in a universe where neither" It from Bit "nor" Bit from It "can be ruled out, as both aspects are clearly displayed.»

I totally agree.

«It appears that Plato was right, on some level, in positing the existence of archetypes of form which exist independent of material reality, because certain regularities of Math have a life of their own, and influence or shape the laws of Physics.»

I totally agree. Moreover, it is necessary to see and draw the shape of the "First Law" in the spirit of Plato. The concept of "vector" is a good helper.

«The principles and objects of Mathematics have a regularity of form that is independent of the method used to elucidate that form, and are therefore properly seen as discovered rather than invented.»

I totally agree. We must look for the first forms of life-archetypes and draw them. Here Alexander Zenkin rights in the article "Science counterrevolution in mathematics":

«The truth should be drawn with the help of the cognitive computer visualization technology and should be presented to" an unlimited circle "of spectators in the form of color-musical cognitive images of its immanent essence.» Http://www.ccas. ru/alexzen/papers/ng-02/contr_rev.htm

«The progression of knowledge in Physics and the evolution of form in the Cosmos are both playful processes of discovery revealing the underlying archetypal information in a pre-determined range of possibilities there to be explored, and creating new ones. On some level, both the universe and human scientists learn what is real by exploring the extent of what is possible, and seeing what structures are the most useful and helpful for understanding or for creating something new. »

I totally agree. The idea of "creationists" and "emergent" must be entered into the base of the physical world. It forces us to make "information" and "information revolution."

«While form clearly exists in discrete units like sub-atomic particles, photons, atoms, and molecules, and some observable information is transmitted in a discrete spectrum, this can demonstrably arise from forces and interactions that display a continuous range of variability. This makes terms like 'It' and 'Bit' too confining to tell the whole story, because they presume that all of reality can be described and determined by discrete relations. As I stated in a previous essay; I think that both discrete and continuous aspects of reality must be simultaneously accepted as real, to understand the universe as it is.»

It is extremely important conclusion. It is necessary to think the universe as a whole. "Opposites" (discrete and continuum) - at the bottom picture of the world (Universe).

«If we allow that there can be a continuous flow between information giving rise to form and form giving rise to information, a clearer picture will emerge.»

Totally agree, and this picture of physicists (and lyrics) to draw. As it drew Plato, Cusa, Hegel.

«So it really is not about" It from Bit or Bit from It? "But more a matter of" What is coming out of 'It' into the realm of 'Bit,' and what is coming out of 'Bit' into the realm of 'It?' "In my view, Physics should admit the possibility for unobserved realities that serve to generate what is observed, but must focus primarily on what is in the realm of the observable. This means that ultimately; all we have to work with is information. In some sense; information is both the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.»

I totally agree. It is in the spirit of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin ("The Phenomenon of Man). Moreover, the "grasp" the nature of information leads to the concept of "ontological (structural) memory» - memory of the Universe (Cosmos- "cosmic memory "). The concept "ontological memory" must enter the physical world as the core.

«While it is quite clear that information of some nature does give rise to the universe of form, thus fulfilling Wheeler's vision of "It from Bit," this does not prevent "Bit from It" modalities from unfolding at the same time. So indeed they are both true outlooks, but the meaning of the story can only be seen by considering the interplay of the two - a Cosmic Dance.»

The perfect conclusion! We physicists and poets should be one full of meaning, the picture of the world, as in the song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3ho31QhjsY

With best regards,

Vladimir

    Wow!

    I am pleased and impressed that there are so many points of agreement in our work to enumerate. You embarrass me a little with your high praise Vladimir, and that I have not gotten to read your essay yet. So many people clamoring for attention on these forums! Given what you say above; I will likely give you a very high rating, once I have the chance to read your paper.

    Thanks for the gratifying comments.

    Have Fun!

    Jonathan

    Hi Jonathan,

    Very interesting and fun essay. I think, were there not such a strict page limit, it would have been interesting to see a deeper study of material v. information from the standpoint of culture. I think that there may be some insights lurking there into how we reach conclusions, particularly in science.

    Your points about mathematics are similar to those made by a colleague of mine. He always says that it is about as close to the Platonic ideal as one can get. I guess I just have always seen it in a reverse sort of way, but it doesn't necessarily mean I'm right. I tend to think, though, that while it is clear that some mathematics is clearly "discovered" (counting, arithmetic, apparently even simple algebra according to a recent study of babies), some is "invented" in the sense that a set of logical rules are set down and followed to their conclusion where the rules themselves may have been slightly arbitrary.

    Ian

      Thanks greatly Ian,

      Your comments are warmly appreciated, and it is gracious of you to be accommodating. I guess that is a sign that I made my point, or made you think - which is better still! I skimmed but did not read your essay for detail yet, but I must say that you make your points eloquently - with compelling logic - so your praise honors me.

      Have Fun!

      Jonathan

      Hi Jonathan,

      really liked it. I think yours is the most 'focused on the question' essay I have read so far. Although there is a lot of different ideas in there from child development, to culture, language and fractal forms and platonic ideals the relevance to the question is clear throughout. So in reply, no I don't think it is noisy. You did a really good job of examining the question from many angles and the dance analogy works very well.I especially liked the way you assigned roles to different aspects of physics, not forgetting energy as director.

      I did think when I got to concluding remarks I had nearly reached then end but it seems you still had much more to say and were maybe holding back the best till last.Wishing you the best luck, your essay deserves to do very well.

        Thank you very much Georgina!

        You are an engaging writer yourself, and you have a lot to say. I think a subject like Physics demands an interdisciplinary approach, and you bring a lot to the table in that regard. In one lecture by Gerard 't Hooft I attended, he spoke to the need to some problems to be addressed through a broad range of disciplines - even subjects that don't appear closely related to the core topic under investigation.

        Where the norm in the Physics is people who are expert in their field, but know very little about what gets studied just down the hall, you bring a refreshing new outlook - a breath of fresh air - to our contests. I appreciate your dropping by, and the kind treatment you gave my essay.

        Have Fun!

        Jonathan

        I mention again here..

        Descartes is actually one of the forefathers of the 'It from Bit' concept. His famous quote "Cogito Ergo Sum" is normally translated in the personal, which is "I Think therefore I Am." But if we translate in the impersonal, it is "Thinking therefore Being," which is essentially the same as "Bit creates It" or "It from Bit." So in imitation of Descartes; I coined the phrase.

        It Computes therefore It Is!

        and I will be assembling material with that theme, related to the subject of the contest on this web-site:

        www.itcomputes.info

        Enjoy,

        Jonathan

        Hi dear Jonathan,

        I have just read your intriguing Essay as I promised you in my Essay page. I find that it is very well written and beautiful. I like your comparing the wave/particle duality with the it/bit duality. Your statement that there are very young children behaving like "little scientists" can be adapted to my little son David, who will be 3 years old on next September. I am always surprised about the number of questions that he currently asks to me and about is reasoning. Last week, my wife told him: "Hey David, look, an aeroplane is leaving!" Then David replied her: "Mum, aeroplane does not leave, aeroplane takes off!" I completely agree with your point of view that we must look upon the basic science issues with child-like eyes again. Science is a play for me, and this is the reason because it is also my job. Do you think that your statement "Determining unambiguously whether a system is creating information or is created by information is thus virtually impossible - as the two modes are so deeply intertwined" is compatible with my one "Information tells physics how to work. Physics tells information how to flow"?. I find compatibility when you also claims that "It is presumed there can be no "It" beyond the Planck density, but clearly the primal basis of information can and must still be well-defined - even in the matter- free regime of the Planck era - for the universe to exist. So information reigns supreme, in the universe before matter appears." Does this imply a breakdown of the it/bit duality in the Primordial Era? In any case, this is an excellent Essay which gave me lots of fun. Therefore, I am going to give you a high score.

        Cheers and have fun,

        Ch.

          Dear Jonathan,

          Pardon my starting another thread as this matter is unrelated to your essay.

          Is it being implied by the relational view of space and as suggested by Mach's principle that what decides whether a centrifugal force would act between two bodies in *constant relation*, would not be the bodies themselves, since they are at fixed distance to each other, nor the space in which they are located since it is a nothing, but by a distant sub-atomic particle light-years away in one of the fixed stars in whose reference frame the *constantly related* bodies are in circular motion?

          NOTE THAT in no other frame can circular motion between the bodies be described in this circumstance except in the 'observing' sub-atomic particle.

          Regards,

          Akinbo

          *I will come back here for answer.

            Hello Jonathan,

            Thanks for the reference to Arthur Young - I am working out the details of the correlation between Mind and Cosmos at this time, and I will definitely read Young a little later. I think you'll find that I've cleared the ground for this next phase in my essay. I very much look forward to hearing your comments soon!

            Best Regards,

            John.

              Thank you greatly Christian..

              Most certainly, children have a lot to teach us. And the playful researcher, with child-like eyes, stands a much better chance to discover something useful, helpful, or meaningful. I am happy my essay touched you in a good way, and to hear that you regard working in Physics as play.

              As to your closing questions, it is more likely the It-Bit duality does not totally go away, even in the massless regime, but certainly the rules change. There can be no relations between objects with distinct centers, if there are no objects, so some of the statements of Relativity are meaningless. But perhaps more general rules hold sway, and discrete information fades.

              All the Best,

              Jonathan

              Hi Jonathan,

              I enjoyed reading your essay, it is nicely written and well reasonned.

              Also, thank you for posting the extract from Feynman's lecture above.

              "I think it is somehow a representation of the simplicity of nature"

              I can't agree more and I boldly propose that Time=(Length)2 and

              Mass=(Length)2/Time=Dimensionless

              and therefore Energy = 1/(Length)2.

              Cheers,

              Patrick

                Dear Jonathan,

                Congratulations for your excellent essay. I enjoyed reading it.

                Your statement on p. 9: "Physics should admit the possibility for unobserved realities that serve to generate what is observed" puts a link to my essay.

                Indeed; I bypass the question "It from Bit or Bit from It?" by treating matter ("mass") and information ("g-information") as interrelated constituent elements of nature. I show how the introduction of the quantity "g-information" in physics can explain the gravito-electromagnetic description of gravitation.

                I postulate that any material object manifests itself in space by emitting - at a rate proportional to its rest mass - "informatons": entities that run away with the speed of light carrying information about the position and the state of movement of the emitter. I identify the expanding cloud of informatons generated by a material object as its gravitational field, and I explain the gravitational force as a reaction of an object on the disturbance of the characteristic symmetry of its "own" field by the flux of informatons generated by other objects.

                May I invite you to go through my essay?

                I wish you all the best in the contest.

                All the best,

                Antoine.

                  Jonathan,

                  "While it is quite clear that information of some nature does give rise to the universe of form, thus fulfilling Wheeler's vision of "It from Bit," this does not prevent "Bit from It" modalities from unfolding at the same time. So indeed they are both true outlooks, but the meaning of the story can only be seen by considering the interplay of the two - a Cosmic Dance."

                  I think your essay is sort of a Cosmic Dance, perhaps a waltz that smoothly glides us through the mysterious question we encounter.

                  I deal with the same issues but with more of a two-step, for example, saying consciousness is not possible -- without religion, sorcery or metaphysics -- at the time of the BB and not until 1 billion years later, being without a body.

                  There is poetry to your ancient tale and meaning in your words. I hope that "It's Great to be the King" does as well in your eyes.

                  Jim

                    Dear Jonathan,

                    I haven't heard from you regarding your comments on my essay in my thread. So, please, do the same and inform me in order to rate your elegantly written essay.

                    Best wishes,

                    Sreenath