Jonathan,

It's not so much a question of life being unequal and often unfair, but the much more specific dynamics of why this current situation is going parabolic and how can it be logically addressed.

Society is always going to have winners and losers and different strata and both friction and exchange between them all. As I keep saying much of human activity on the surface of this planet can be modeled by the same thermodynamic convection cycles which pretty much explain most of the abiotic and much of the biotic activity.

Money originated in many forms and situations. Some were actual commodities, like the salt paid to Roman soldiers. Others originated as a form of contract, like the clay token Sumerians used as receipts for grain, which were then traded around. Much of what we think of as money today, is various forms of contracts. Promises of some value for which the certificate can be exchanged. National currencies, now that they are completely backed by the debt of the issuing country, are based on the future health, wealth and productivity of that country.

Remember when many banks had the term "Trust" as part of the name? The problem is that since we all want money, not just the rich, because it signifies security and stability for most, it creates a strong incentive to produce more than there are resources to back it with. Now that the situation has grown completely out of control and the very function of the economy is to produce ever more of these increasingly unsupported and unsupportable promises, which become ever more leveraged and ethereal, that the actual health, wealth and productivity of the world is being sacrificed to manufacture them.

When you really stand back and think it through, it is as ultimately illogical as those Easter Islanders who destroyed their island to manufacture those stone monoliths, because they signified some overriding ideal.

The fact is that we do need a medium of exchange for large societies to function, but it is a public medium, like a road system and to the extent it is based on public debt, ie. obligations, it is a contract between a community and its members, that one's services will be rewarded.

Now in some ways, it is like blood in the civic body and like blood, it needs to keep flowing evenly around and large pools of it are extremely unhealthy and functionally unnecessary.

Since the main reason most people save money is for large purchases, retirement, eduction, etc. Then other, more effective social mechanisms need to evolve around those needs, leaving the conventional monetary system to handle the more liquid aspects. For one thing, if we understood strong communities and a healthy environment are a valuable resource and time and effort should be invested in maintaining them, such activities as elder, youth care and education might function much more as organic expressions of society. Not to mention having manufacturing produce product which could be maintained and last a long time and not simply be thrown away, it would create a significant local servicing capacity.

Since they would be acknowledged as a contract, those caught abusing the system would consequently have the value of their notes penalized.

Essentially all this requires is acknowledging these notes are not personal property, but public contracts and that is exactly what they are in the first place!! Your picture is not on them, nor are you individually responsible for guaranteeing their value. Consider that if the average Joe Sixpack understood those bills in his pocket were no more his property than the section of road he was driving on, he would be far less impressed with possessing as many of them as possible and would be careful what tangible value he would exchange for them. His efforts would have to go to making his family life more important, his social relations stronger and his environment healthier, because he would know that this is what would matter, not how many zeros are in his bank account. Then consider what this would do to the governments and financial industries currently drunk on all this power we subconsciously give them.

The fact is that since the system has gone parabolic and every time it has another heart attack, the response is more of the same and so the problem grows even bigger. When the next crisis occurs, it is going to start to be obvious to pretty much everyone that it is unsustainable. Then people will be looking for other answers.

Regards,

John

Dear John

Your article, filled with analogies and allegories, was pleasant to read. Wars and guns are certainly manifestations of a disease conditioned by non-living virus, build and led by infected, self-destructive cells. Money (non-value) flow is one of the circulatory mechanism of spreading and maintaining the infection. Without reproductive mechanism of a living cell, virus is a frigid information, unable to replicate itself. Planted and maintained delusion is the most fertile ground at which virus can flourish. By mastering the ability to recognise and block such non-living intruder, life immunizes, reinforces and evolves itself. Only life can procreate, organise, maintain and evolve life. Life borrows life to a virus for only as long as it takes to decode it. Hence, the virus can be considered as Tanatos, sculpting Eros. The next evolutionary step in sculpting life of our shared, accelerating space-time orbit is in recognition of a malicious virus tricking our immune system by calling itself "Humanity". Did you notice that all living necessities, like sexual, reproductive parts of our body, or natural, like natural food and healing plants... is stigmatized and controlled by "them"? On the other hand, all which is unnecessary, artificial, unhealthy, lethal and non-alive is favoured by "them". "They" arbitrarily invent and execute their irrelevant, local legislations falsifying them as laws. "Altruistically", it is always "in the name of progress, in the name of democracy, in the name of god, in the name of humanity, in the name of our children... bla, bla..." Well, who the "bad word for sexual activity" are them, and in the name of whom...? It is of course always infected "I Am (not)" in the name of "I Am (not)" ...

As concerning your analogy of information and energy processing divisions of human body, each of us is as well consisted of two to three kilograms of bacteria... This symbiotic structure evolved into cooperation and self-organised necessity, rather than combat, domination and competition. "I am" is the only power holder over "I am not". And what makes "I am not" being blind to the simple truth that the "All mighty" is in fact "I am" is non-alive, frigid and useless information contradicting life.

Regards

andrej

    Andrej,

    Humanity is one more flower reaching for the sun. Hopefully the seeds it scatters won't be as foolish as we have been.

    I think also it is each of us is I am, but we don't always identify the I am in the other, because we only see their wants conflicting with our wants and like the same ends of magnets, we push each other away.

    It is only when what we have to give matches they want and vice versa, that we become one.

    Regards,

    John

    Dear John,

    Thanks for your explanations. I was not offended. Really, this platform has brought a combination of diverse backgrounds together. But we can continue to learn from one another especially on the subject of the theme that has united us together. The liveliness of this forum is in our diversities.

    Thanks so much. You are great! All the best!

    Best regards

    Gbenga

    Hi John - I tend to agree with Robert. My impression is that you neither engage nor dismiss the question of steering, but flirt with it. This doesn't so much place you off topic as erode somewhat my interest while reading. "Tell me how to steer," I want to urge, "or tell me that I can't steer, but tell me something definite."

    Like Robert, I missed your plan for using "the up coming financial crisis" to change the economy, "treating money as a contract, not a commodity"; it didn't come across as a definite plan. Instead I saw your proposal for reforming the US budget process (p. 5-6), but I don't think you meant that as a full-blown steering plan. Your essay ends frankly on this point, "If others have plans..., I'm all ears." - Mike

    Dear John,

    I don't believe in being a centrist just for the sake of being a centrist either. I go where the evidence leads me. Sometimes that can be to the center of something and sometimes it can be at the outer extreme or anywhere in between. When it comes to God I hung back for over 22 years while I observed the evidence on both sides. When the weight of that evidence overwhelmingly tilted in favor of God's existence I went where it led me and have found that it only has pointed more strongly in that direction since then. I do agree that there are those who you might find at the center of the group of believers that tend to get carried away and make up their own rules and traditions, etc. that are not in accordance with God's will and teachings. This is made clear in the scriptures even during Jesus' ministry in that Jesus had to point out errors in the teachings of the Scribes and Pharisees, who were at the center of the Jew's religion at the time. The one place that I am sort of a centrist is that, as you say, God is at the center of all things and if you want to be joined to him you have to come to him at the center also. I have found that God desires to have a relationship with us that is closer than any that we can have with each other in this world. It is closer than the relationship of marriage between a man and a woman, which is an image of God's relationship with man when both the man and his wife are perfect, because that relationship is limited in that a man and his wife do not share their thoughts or even their experiences and feelings internally with each other, but God shares his thoughts, feelings, and experiences with us and, of course he can always share in our thoughts feelings, and experiences. I have not seen that he offers to have a permanent fringe or distant relationship with him because he made us to be close to him as members or parts of his body. He has, however, built in a degree of separation between us and him in that he has placed Jesus Christ as the mediator between himself and us. This seems to be mainly because his intents, thoughts and ways are well beyond our ability to understand directly, so he has placed Jesus Christ in the middle to translate his intents, thoughts, and ways into a form that we can understand, etc. There is, therefore, that amount of separation from him (the center). He made things in a similar way in our relationship with the natural world. We cannot connect directly to matter structures and observe their internal information directly, but must observe them through the mediator of energy and sub-energy interactions, etc. If this works ok for someone in this world, he probably will find a relationship with God acceptable also. The natural world cannot love us and care for us as God does though.

    Although you could look at God's relationship with man as totalitarian, in that he has ultimate power and control over us, his rule over us is not like that of man's totalitarian governments that are based on satisfying the lusts, greed, desire to forcefully use and misuse subjects for his gain at their expense. Since God is the source of all things, he does not need to take resources from his subjects. Instead he is the one that provides all resources to them. To be high in God's kingdom does not mean that you will be in charge of taking resources from the people to supply the needs and desires of the king, but that you will be in charge of distributing resources that come from God to the people. God's kingdom is based on his love for us in that he created us to be joined to him as members of his body and he demonstrated that love to us by greatly suffering for us, so that he could save us from death and give us eternal life in him. This is one case in which the bodies only pile up in those who do not come to him at the center. He does give everyone that choice, though.

    I agree. God has perfectly balanced all things in him.

    You are right. Many men have made up stories that are not according to god's word and have misled many. God does give examples in the scriptures from the lives of people (both the good and the evil) to demonstrate how he has made the world to work and what kinds of results can be expected by either going according to his will and working in line with the way he designed the world to work or, on the other hand, going against his will by working against the way the world was made to properly work. Of course, God does not need to use theories because he knows all things concerning the universe, since he made it. There are some things in the scriptures that are presented in what would usually be considered very abstract forms. I have found that at least a large number of them appear that way because they tell us about things that man has not yet come to understand. As man's understanding increases their meanings become clear. Those who don't have the background information to understand them tend to either read them and then ignore them or try to apply meanings to them according to their current level of understanding. I go to the type of forum that God leads me to at any given time. I have found that both truth and error can be found at any type of forum. Only God's word can be counted on.

    Sincerely,

    Paul B.

      Paul,

      I really don't think you try to understand my point of view. Since I don't follow your theological model, you make a bunch of assumptions about what I think. Having followed religious beliefs over the years, I do have some sense of that top down, paternal deity to which you subscribe and I just find it limited and pretentious, not to mention hypocritical. It may not be authoritarian in the way human governments tend to become, but it does validate top down authority. I suppose the female side of the spiritual equation is just a form of Adam's rib and incidental to this model, but I think this dichotomy is far more reflective of much deeper spiritual realities. Going through all which you write, the separation of god and humanity, the need to come to 'him,' etc. all speak to methods of social control and direction which serve normal civic functions and while they might well be necessary to have a cohesive society, can also be misused and so don't necessarily need unquestioning validation, since this serves the purposes of those who will misuse them.

      I could go on, but I realize you are not going to listen and what you say isn't anything I've haven't already heard by others wishing me to join their church.

      Regards,

      John

      Dear John

      Nice reading your essay, well written and concise. You touch several delicate topics, such as economy, politics and even religion. I would avoid talking about God in science groups. I think science and God are irreconcilable. Anyways, religion also plays its role in society. You also ask some philosophical questions difficult to answer. You are a mature man and have a lot experience in life; that's what your essay reflects. According to your experience, what do you think humankind is seeking? Shall we arrive at stable state in the future? What is your vision for the future of humanity?

      I'd be grateful if you could take a look at my essay and leave some comments.

      Best regards

      Israel

        Israel,

        I did read your essay and went back and reviewed it. As you say, the situation is overwhelmingly complex when we start considering all the actual details. A big part of the reason why I like discussing physics, rather than history, politics, sociology, etc. The secret seems to be to find the patterns and processes within all those details. For one thing, we really are not looking for stability as an overall state. There has to be inherent ebb and flow. It is just when it gets out of the acceptable and manageable ranges and those vary, according to perspective. Otherwise stability eventually leads to stagnation and then disruption, as that stable state decays.

        As for science and religion, they actually evolved as two sides of the same coin. When you go back to the ancients, it was a matter of both describing natural order and explaining it. This description became mathematics and science. Think cosmology. Meanwhile religion grew out of the entirely natural impulse to explain this order as intentional and assign personality to these natural forces. Beauty, anger, fear, ego, attraction eroticism etc. can all find, with a little imagination, parallels in the natural order of things. The premise of monotheism is essentially knowledge and wisdom as a form of platonic ideal. Given the inherent dynamic of intellectualism is to distill signals from the noise, this reductionism is a logical progression. Christianity is actually a bit of a step back, with the concept of the trinity, to the inescapable complexities. Essentially it is a personification of past/father, present/son and future/holy ghost, since it grew out of a schism in Judaism and so the son was projected as a renewal, but after suffering centuries of persecution, hope for the future became its selling point to those who where persecuted, which is a big audience.

        Islam was actually a much more politically successful movement for its first seven hundred years (and largely coasted for the next six hundred), compared to Christianity and as such, was able to project a more monolithic vision and only in the last hundred years, have the downsides of this, in its lack of conceptual diversity and thus social inertia, come home to roost.

        We are taught good and bad are some cosmic conflict between the forces of righteousness and evil, but they are in fact the biological binary code of attraction to the beneficial and repulsion of the detrimental. What is good for the fox, is bad for the chicken and there is no clear line where the chicken ends and the fox begins. Between black and white are not only shades of grey, but all the other colors of the spectrum.

        What might be good for the individual, expansion and reproduction, might be bad for the group, if it uses up all the resources, so like any computation, the factors are many. The fact is that reality is bottom up and we only see it top down from our particular limited point of view.

        So analyzing religion really must be part of any full scale review of humanity and its options, since it functions as the core and vision of societies.

        As for our immediate situation, I just wrote a comment on Don Limuti's entry, which I think lays out the immediate situation and where to go from here. I've given this topic a fair amount of thought over the years, but tend to have trouble finding forums willing to discuss it in real depth, so I don't get a lot of feedback. Since I submitted my entry with the very first batch, I have been getting enough feedback to think it through even more, so this comment reflects that slightly more complex view. I'll post it here anyway;

        "Don,

        A spot on and logically focused article. I've been castigating various entrants for their 'out in space' entries and so it is nice to have such a well centered and reasonable one. I think though, that the possibility exists to be far more radical than you might think possible. Significant change is only possible when the old order breaks down, but right now the current status quo is coalescing in upon itself and only re-enforcing its own increasingly disfunctional methods. So all the various sectors of society mostly seek to hold onto what they have and further antagonize other parts of society. In this situation, even your reasonable proposals would meet considerable resistance from those who are more focused on holding onto what they have, than gambling on a better outcome.

        The result would normally be a state of slow stagnation and increasingly stratified and compartmentalized future society. Yet I think that the monumental nature of these issues provides a potential relief.

        The enormous tumor of financial excess can only keep growing at this exponential rate and will blow up when it reaches some totally unsustainable level. The result will be the equivalent of a massive heart attack on society, as the economic circulation system siezes up. While this will be potentially catastrophic in some quarters, it is not as though monetary regimes haven't collapsed before and had forms of local exchange rise in their place.

        My proposal is that we begin treating money as the contract which it is, rather than the commodity we have been led to believe it is. While this might seem a minor conceptual issue, it has the potential to change the paradigm by which society functions.

        Any society above a few hundred people needs a medium of exchange. If there is not some readily available commodity with universal applications, such as gold, silver, salt, grain, etc. then a debt based monetary system is quite effective. Yet we forget it is essentially a form of public utility and social contract, not private property. We no more own those bills in our pockets, than we own the section of road we happen to be driving on, yet it is very much in the interest of those controlling this system for us to believe that it is personal property, much as it is in the fisherman's interest for the fish to think that worm belongs to it. This way, every aspect of exchange becomes denominated in this medium and everyone wants as much as possible, further empowering those controlling it.

        Money functions like blood in the economy and as such it needs to keep flowing. Since everyone wishes to obtain as much as possible, this naturally creates excess. If we simply take it out of circulation and store it, it means more must be issued and then there becomes more than necessary, so that if the value started to go down, people would try dumping these stores, further decreasing the value.

        Otherwise it must be invested, ie. loaned to someone else who can effectively spend it in ways to make even more and then pay off the debt and still earn enough to make the effort worthwhile. The fact is there are far fewer of these opportunities, then there is money seeking worthwhile investments.

        This then leads to various unsustainable feedback loops, such as that once speculative investing, ie. greater fool systems, start, it can quickly become possible that money can be borrowed into existence cheaper than these bubbles grow and thus building on theselves, as is currently happening in much of the investment world

        There is also the need to create ever more debt to feed the production of this capital and so lending standards fall. Not to mention the innumerable ways further leverage is added.

        Now if people wish to gamble, this should be perfectly legal, with the understanding that it is gambling, not disguised as safe investment.

        So in reality money is a form of debt. One person's asset is another person's obligation. When those with large piles of these surplus bills gain functional control over the government, then they can effectively have the government, ie. the public, buy this notational wealth as public debt and so sustain its value, since the public is required to pay it back, with interest. Then this money has to be spent and often it is in ways which further enrich those in control.

        Now if we were to begin to understand that money functions as a necessary social contract and we don't actually own it, then most people will start to be far more careful how much they are willing to pull value out of personal and social relations, as well as environmental resources. This would then make the community and the environment natural stores of wealth, not just resources to be mined for value, in order to compete and gamble in the financial system.

        Since stores of currency would be recognized as potentially unhealthy to the system, methods would be devised to reduce them. Most people store wealth for such needs as elder and youth care, education, housing and other large expenses. Now if we started storing value within our communities and relations, the normal, organic systems of exchange and reciprocity would emerge. We would start caring for the old folks and kids like nature intended, as part of life, not just services bought and sold. Much of primary education could also naturally fall into this system and more naturally integrated systems of secondary eduction might evolve as well. Then there could be forms of mutual building societies, much as the Amish do.

        This is not to say a normal and extensive monetary, or even various overlapping monetary ststems wouldn't still function, but they would be built with full understandings of how they best function and for more liquid forms of exchange. Then local public banks would use their profits to fund services and projects within the communities that produced those profits. They would then serve as shareholders in regional systems, in a bottom up system.

        Much as the body has both a heart and a head, society would naturally keep this function of circulation of wealth somewhat distinct from its public management, as a natural distribution and separation of power.

        So this is how I think humanity should be steered; When this current financial system does break down, which seems imminent, but has been for a few decades, but they keep patching with ever more public debt and the resulting surplus credit, we simply have to open our eyes and understand this stuff called money is not, in and of itself, a form of commodity, but a contract which a community is making with its members and those caught abusing this system will naturally have their benefits penalized, not be allowed to profit from this abuse.

        We need to educate people how it all works!!!!

        Regards,

        John Merryman

        I

        John,

        Time grows short so I'm revisiting and rating. Your response to my questions before: "We really won't know what will rise from the rubble, but I'm naturally optimistic. As I point out, the larger issue is that the earth's resources can't sustain the current economy indefinitely, so having what amounts to a self induced heart attack will be a serious monkey wrench in that process and who knows how it ends up."

        My essay has a solution of "looking beyond" -- to dark skies and sustainable actions and "looking within" to a mind that is a microcosm of our universe, using it for transforming actions. I still wonder if we have doomed our world's environment, something that will hamper real recovery.

        Jim

          Jim,

          Nature is constantly building up and tearing down. We are seriously disrupting the biosphere, but even a cleared stage eventually is creating opportunities for whatever has the capacity to fill it. At the very least, it will be an interesting few decades.

          Regards,

          John

          Thanks again for reviewing my essay, John. I'll be rating yours (along with the others on my review list) some time between now and May 30. All the best, and bye for now, - Mike

          Hi John,

          I am suspicious that philosophy may be outlawed in the FQXi contests, we may be forced back into sinning (in the essays) so that grace may abound..... heaven forbid!

          Good to see you in another contest.

          Wishing you the best,

          Don Limuti

          Hi John,

          Appreciate your links to state public banking and to Ellen Brown.

          I was in the process of replying when you post just disappeared !?!?

          The post was reply to a Jonathan D. post I made.

          The links were very informative and appreciated.

          Could you post again?

          Don L.

          • [deleted]

          Dear John,

          My attempt to extract convincing arguments from your essay was not very successful. Why did you not give an abstract? What the heck means hack human history?

          Your musing around philosophy might be appealing to many who share your half-digested questions how to cope with their personal perspective. You are focusing on money and you predict a belonging catastrophe. I agreed with you on that money is not a commodity. I should also agree on that money is said ruling the world. Should I invest money in India after the election was won by Modi? Hm.

          My wife asked me what does oligarchy mean. My dictionary told me: a small group of people who control and run a particular country or organization. India could definitely be a huge market. However, it suffers from lack of true democracy in the sense that most people (the demos) are utterly poor while those oligarchs of India who live in London are incredibly rich. Most people I know in Europe are neither very poor nor very rich. The oligarchs will perhaps try and prevent both a new worldwide war and the worldwide collapse of the monetary system that you seem to envision. Discoveries, inventions, and other contributions to progress will perhaps prove stronger than military or monetary maneuvers. Modi was almost an underdog. He might or might not achieve a lot. However, I see India's problem rather than its strength its young and still growing poor population. They will like to live as do we and as Modi promised to them.

            Anon,

            The contest question was a bit broad and so the idea of packing everything into 9 pages isn't possible, thus the reference to the essay being the abstract. Unfortunately one of the areas left on the cutting room floor was the impact of these points on Indian politics, especially those which occurred after the essay was submitted.

            As for oligarchies, it is also difficult to explain political form in such a short piece, so I did stick to abstractions, such as energy/the dynamic and information/the form. Necessarily oligarchy is a form, so your questions might possibly pertain to the historical dynamic by which it came to be and the potential dynamics by which it might be disrupted. Now this might not necessarily be a good thing, given the tendency for established social orders to crumble when disrupted, rather than quickly assume a more ideal form.

            I prefer to stick to physical abstractions and not have to explain all their potential manifestations, as the result tends toward clutter, rather than clarity, even if not everyone is able to think abstractly and apply it to their personal situation. Have you had similar reactions to many of the other entries? This is more of a physics forum, than a strictly political one.

            Regards,

            John

            Dear John

            Thanks for your reply. You almost wrote another essay. I have some minor disagreements on some of your points. That I would like to make some comments.

            You: stability as an overall state... Otherwise stability eventually leads to stagnation and then disruption, as that stable state decays.

            In my opinion, stability does not necessarily imply lack of movement, progress or stagnation. This would depend on the collective goals a nation or group of nations have.

            You: As for science and religion, they actually evolved as two sides of the same coin. When you go back to the ancients, it was a matter of both describing natural order and explaining it.

            Strictly speaking science was born with the work of Newton in 1687. Before Newton there were philosophical doctrines, mathematics, natural philosophy, etc. but not science because there was no model of doing science. So, at that time we had philosophy and religion as two ways to approach the truth. There is a debate whether religion is some kind of philosophy or philosophy some kind of religion. Some have tried to claim that because science is a descendent of philosophy it is some sort of religion. I see religion, science or philosophy just as ways of perceiving life. Moreover, science and religion have opposite principles.

            With respect to the money issue, I don't consider myself an expert in economy. It is evident that you have given a deep thought on that topic and I'm afraid I cannot not offer much valuable feedback. However, I think that your idea is quite good and sound. So, I would like to make some comments.

            You: Significant change is only possible when the old order breaks down... and ...

            The enormous tumor of financial excess can only keep growing at this exponential rate and will blow up when it reaches some totally unsustainable level...

            This reminds me of the book written by Thomas Khun, on the structure of scientific revolutions. He argues that science is done in several stages. The stage that corresponds to normal science, which is a STABILITY stage, where most scientists work happily following certain principles, where theories are tested and confronted with experiments. Then, as time goes by anomalies start to appear that challenge the establishment. This stage marks the set for the development of new and fresh ideas. Then, more and more experimental and theoretical evidence piles up that demands radical changes and set the landscape for a new revolution. As the pressure on the orthodoxy increases, those maintaining the status quo hold and resist as much as possible until new and bold people put forward a new theory. The next stage is the revolution in which there is competition to introduce the new theories and ideas. In the final stage the new theory is accepted. Then the cycle repeats again.

            I think, the case is similar in any revolution scientific, economical, social or whatnot. And now I think we are not close to a revolution of this kind (may be close to world war). Indeed, I think elements are emerging and piling up, but I do not think the economical system will collapse in the following 50 years or so. Although I agree with you that those who have the economic control can steer the future. But I don't think they will be happy with the restrictions you are suggesting. I agree however that we should be informed of how money is handled.

            Good luck in the contest!

            Best Regards

            Israel

            • [deleted]

            Israel,

            Thanks for the reply.

            I'm not saying stability doesn't exist in the first place, but that it functions in an inherently dynamic context. You might say life is a bit like riding a bicycle. Either you keep moving forward, or you fall over.

            Yes, I certainly agree with your points about the relation between science and religion, but they more clarify my basic argument, than refute it. Yes, they do serve different functions, which is what I said. One seeks to describe the order of reality and the other seeks to explain it. And so as science gets ever more effective at both describing and explaining reality, it seemingly pushes against the realm of religion, but as the old saying goes, the more you know, the more you know you don't know. So now science, specifically physics, is starting to make up lots of explanations, from string theory, to multiverses, to explain all it finds it doesn't know and thus commits the errors of presumption for which religion found itself accused of.

            As for that cycle of speculation and consolidation, it pretty much describes many of the processes in life. As I keep arguing, time and temperature are essentially frequency and amplitude and the two hemispheres of our brains are effectively a thermostat and a clock. The left linear side seems rational, because we can follow that causal chain of sequential events, but the non-linear, emotional, intuitive, right side functions as just such a scalar mechanism, of expansion and then consolidation around the perceived results that are distilled from this larger grouping, be it anything from the insight of a connection not otherwise perceived, or anger and stress from too much information and pressure, causing the 'pot to boil.'

            Scientific American recently ran an article on how speculative bubbles are fundamental to the economic process. Though they were far more circumspect about how they described it, rather that Ponzi schemes emerge naturally and not just as confidence games.

            I also posted a continuing rant on the subject of the financial situation, over on the contest thread.

            Thanks!

            Regards,

            John

            John,

            Perhaps a financial collapse is natural with little or no regulation when the Clinton administration lead efforts to rid us of the Glass-Steagall Act. It assured stability for some 65 years.

            Time grows short, so I am revisited those I've read to assure I've rated them. I find that I rated yours on 5/20. Hope you enjoyed mine.

            Jim

            Dear John

            You: I'm not saying stability doesn't exist in the first place, but that it functions in an inherently dynamic context.

            I agree.

            You: One seeks to describe the order of reality and the other seeks to explain it.

            About more than 20 centuries ago religion and philosophy used to seek the truth. Although science continues with this line, I would not say that religion is about truth. Religion has been relegated to cover spiritual aspects of life but no longer truth. As I said, these two are incompatible.

            You: ...to explain all it finds it doesn't know and thus commits the errors of presumption for which religion found itself accused of.

            You're probably right. In some sense science is behaving as religion.

            The article you cite seems to be interesting. As far as know the Ponzi scheme is fraudulent.

            Israel