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  • Post #95

Hi Peter,

I did think some more about your essay, but am not sure I fully got the point. This is not the fault of the essay but as I said I find Bell's theorem discussions very subtle and for me it takes time to digest. I had the same reaction the first time we covered Bell's theorem in grad school (we were using Sakaurai's non-relativistic QM text which has a good description of Bell's theorem). It took some late night discussions with some friends to get to the point where I *thought* I understood what was going on in Bell's original arguments.

Anyway let me ask some questions to see what I did and did not get from the essay. First it seems you are saying that there is a way for classical mechanics to give the same violations of Bell's inequalities as predicted by QM. I got this from the statement "Classical dynamics appeared to reproduce QM quantum correlations, which was not possible with the singlet

spin assumption John Bell inherited." Also you have some kit where one can verify this for oneself (this is the point of the technical end notes right?). There is a disk in figure 4 which then can be used to give reproduce the same (or similar?) correlations as in QM. Actually looking at the table it appears that the correlations you get are close but distinguishable (in principle) from QM. From table 1 I take the cloumn that says "Green Bias ^2" as your prediction while QM Cos^2 (theta)" is the standard QM prediction. They are close to one another but not exactly identical. For example for 45^o you have a Green Bias ^2 value of 0.54 versus the QM value of 0.5 (one technical question at this point -- it appears Green Bias ^2 column is gotten by squaring the "Green Bias column". If this is correct then I get 0.55 (after rounding) for the "Green Bias ^2" column for 45^o. All the other values seem to be rounded correctly. Anyway in principle there is a way to distinguish your model from teh QM case (I think if I have understood things correctly up to this point). If this is the case then it certainly would be very useful to do a refined version of the Aspect et al. experiments to see which is correct -- your model or QM. If I misunderstood some point let me know.

However, even if everyone in this forum agreed (and they probably would) that it would be good to re-run the Aspect experiment to to check this in some sense there is the problem that this is the wrong forum. You need to try and convince an experimentalist to do this and most of the audience here are theorists. And convincing experimentalists to invest time in doing any experiment is hard since they usually have their own ideas of what is interesting. For example, when I was in grad school and did figure out to some degree (at least this is what I told myself) that I knew what Bell's theorem was about I talked to some of the older grad students who were already doing their research in one of the many good atomic/molecular groups for which UVA is known. I asked them why they didn't work on this type of experiment (i.e. an experiment similar to Aspects) since this seemed very coll and foundational. The answer was "Well we don't set the research agenda for the group. We're grad students! And even if we did set the agenda we probably wouldn't switch from our present projects to Bell's theorem stuff. these are complex and messy experiments. The stuff we are working on (Rydberg-like atoms with super high n-quantum numbers so that the orbitals were really classical) is also very cool and the results are much cleaner and this is what our NSF grant says we are working on." The lesson I took away form this is that what and theorist thinks of as a good project and what an experimentalist views as a good project are often different things.

But I do agree (assuming I understood the general outline of you proposal) one should do such an experiment to distinguish your model from the QM model (again from the table it appears the results are close but not exactly the same).

I have some more comments that are not related to the main point of the essay which I will add later.

Best,

Doug

    Hi again. The above was me. I guess you get logged out if the post is too long.

    Best,

    Doug

    Hi Peter,

    You take us, the readers, on a journey. We see reality from the point of view of characters (Alice and Bob) that seem to have real lives. I'm always amazed by the imaginative scenarios you use to frame your discussion of the physics!

    Your main hypothesis, that "quantum spin includes OAM" and so "'non-local state reduction' is not required", seems feasible enough to me, but it would be great to get some experimental results to confirm it.

    On the other hand, I wouldn't agree that all aspects of nature are necessarily entirely "logical". I would think that, in a non-platonic universe, logic is not the standard to measure nature - it's more a case that nature is the standard to measure logic. I think that logic (i.e. that which seems to us to be consistent and make sense) is the product of nature, not the other way round.

    A very readable and interesting essay.

    Cheers,

    Lorraine

      Hi Peter,

      You write beautifully and the content is even better. The essay is packed with so much information. I read it once but I have to read carefully it again. I just give you my encouragement now because it is one of the best essay here. I will comment and rate it soon.

      Best wishes,

      Leo KoGuan

        Lorraine,

        I like; "nature is the standard to measure logic" because as I highlighted in my 2012 essay, famously; "all logical systems are ultimately beset by paradox". With the exception of only one (which also proves Occam's razor);

        That one is the simple 'TRUTH FUNCTION LOGIC" (TFL) which I described in that essay and which is the logic I invoke. In a nutshell, It proves there's a 'hierarchy' of propositions and compound propositions in which a part of any compound proposition can ONLY be resolved with respect to THAT proposition, NOT ANY other. The rules of brackets in arithmetic follow that logic. Part of a function in brackets can ONLY be related to another part within those particular brackets.

        Current science does not respect that universal logic, which dictates for instance, that, very simply, light passing the rough our galaxy propagates at c with respect to (the centre of mass rest frame of) the galaxy. Which is exactly what we find. We then loose natures logic and expect light in Andromeda to propagate there at c WRT OUR galaxy! What Earth centred, even arrogant thinking!

        TFL says that light undergoes a transform on entering and exiting a galaxy (local 'brackets') so it's speed and the Laws of Physics are consistent. The SR postulates re-emerge better interpreted. Once we get our heads round the concept all the anomalies in physics fall into place. But that 'discrete field' dynamic mechanism; simple re-scattering at local c, is so 'different' to embedded beliefs that most minds are unable to see and rationalise it. I estimated ~2020. This essay is the one of the coherent set and shows how nature's logic simply unravels QM's apparent entanglement.

        Can you perceive that logic yet? (The paper explaining the TFL scattering mechanism between discrete inertial systems/ frames/ domains/ fields including the LT 'power curve' approaching 'OB' mode density/min wavelength is below).

        Thanks for the comment. Best wishes

        Peter

        Optical Breakdown limit as a Mechanism for the Lorentz Transformation.

        Mike, Isreal,

        Thanks for the points. Reading the early essays I was disappointed that mostly only obvious ideals were discussed, with no implementation. I believe we fail to recognise how the whole course of humanity had been led and steered by advances in understanding of nature, our planet and the universe.

        That is from the invention of the first tools through everything including food production, information technology, and soon AI and space travel. Yes of course we should have less war, more altruism etc, I've practised the latter more than almost any as an implementer or 'enabler'. To me an iota of action is worth a thousand words.

        So I suggest nothing genuinely and effectively steers our path more than understanding, but that is not yet recognised. As Judith Nabb points out, it's our way of thinking that really needs improving, to better understand who and what we are. It's our poor understanding that propagates our poor understanding. Perhaps we're not quite ready yet, even by 2020, but I am an optimist.

        Thank you kindly for your comments.

        Peter

        Joe,

        Thanks for your description. I'll try to read all descriptions. I must confess I really can't rationalise much of yours, though certainly agree the speed of light interacting with any surface is modulated to the speed of light wrt that surface. There's no reason it should do so earlier and no evidence that it does.

        I'm not a Dr by the way. While educated for well over 10 years in a range of disciplines including to and beyond PhD level in Architecture, the UCAS system was resisted by the RIBA until the year after I completed the course. The concern was the pressure to adopt a doctrinal teaching basis. The RIBA stood their ground, which was massively important.

        It seems perhaps only Architecture now re-teaches student how to think holistically and challenge everything properly as well as rigorous complex analysis etc. I was horrified how little of that there was in science teaching compared to maths and ramming the so called 'facts' in. My children have just gone through the process. I still am.

        Best of luck in the contest.

        Peter

        Thanks Charles,

        I think you've highlighted the problem with mainstream theory. Though clearly very inconsistent and incomplete it's embedded, so recognising more consistent alternatives which are 'different' (be definition) is impossible.

        All are trying to get their heads and maths around reality in terms of twisted mobius strips and 7-spheres, but when shown that the simple relationship between orbital speeds at different latitudes on a sphere can reproduce everything needed to explain "QM predictions", it's so unbelievably simple that it's simply not believed so not even analysed!

        I stress I'm not shocked or upset Charles. I estimated in 2010 that mankind was unlikely to have the vision to perceive the truth of any such 'different' solution until 2020 (see my 2011 Essay). The subsequent essays have shown the proofs, being exceptionally well supported, (2nd Community last year) but translating that to a paradigm shift is a long way off it seems.

        I do hope you might look back to better understand to logic and quite solid evidence (see also me recent comments here) which will help you better understand my classical solution here, also how QM and SR are indeed marriageable once the interpretations of both are just slightly modified by the same mechanism; electron/plasma re-scattering at the electrons own 'c'. I call it 'joined-up-science', a bit like learning 'joined-up-writing as it invokes well known effects from disparate 'disciplines'.

        I'll also check back on your essay. Thanks for your comments.

        Best wishes.

        Peter

        Hi Peter,

        Good to see you in another contest. Finally got to your essay, which I always look forward to.

        One thing I found of interest is the idea of electrons actually having two components. And these components are what creates the spin of the electron.

        Please allow me to offer a somewhat similar idea that may integrate with yours. The two components of the electron are two wavelengths, a deBroglie wavelength and a Compton wavelength. The sequence of these wavelengths form what we call spin. See:

        1. http://www.digitalwavetheory.com/DWT/33_A_Tale_of_Two_Wavelengths.html

        2. http://www.digitalwavetheory.com/DWT/37_Visualizing_Spin.html

        3. http://www.digitalwavetheory.com/DWT/41_Neutrinos_and_Light.html

        4. http://www.digitalwavetheory.com/DWT/36_Derivation_of_the_Compton_Wavelength.html

        To date, Bell's theorem is generally regarded as supported by a substantial body of evidence and there are few supporters of local hidden variables, though the theorem is continually subject of study, criticism, and refinement.

        Please also allow me to put in my two cents, and argue that Bell's theorem is founded on a fundamental misconception. Bell assumed that local hidden variables were a possibility. He then showed that this is impossible. The logic is good so long as a local hidden variable is as conceived by Einstein. Both Bell and Einstein demanded that particles be "continuous in space-time". If particles are not continuous in space-time (Heisenberg's concept in matrix mechanics), the Bell theorem produces confusion because garbage in produces garbage out. We do not see the garbage in and try to find meaning in the garbage out. The fundamental reality of QM is discontinuous, it can be observed in experiments (Alain Aspect) but never proved, it is just a fact of nature (IMHO).

        I believe you are pushing the boundaries of our concepts of reality.... a very practical way to steer the future.

        Don Limuti

          Dear Peter,

          beautiful essay! I also liked the story around it. Although in trying to understand quantum physics for so many years I somehow took Bohr's side in the struggle for an interpretation of QM, I think your essay is a precious contribution to the debate and earns a hight rating.

          Recently in trying to figure out how the information is transferred in a coin toss I had similar vision as Bob in space, as there is now up and down for a coin if not relative to gravitational field. I didn't come far with the informational part of my thinking. But I figured out, that the quantum mechanical probabilities could come out for the simple coin toss.

          A similar realistic toy model was used by Diederik Aerts in this paper to show, that if the state is disturbed by the measurement apparatus Kolmogorovian probabilities do not hold any more and they have to be generalized.

          In my essay I take a non realistic view of physics in the sense that objects get their properties by interaction with the measurement apparatus and don't have these properties per se. I hope you find the time to read, rate and comment it.

          Regards,

          Luca

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            • Post #105

            Doug,

            It took me a few years too. What Bell does is 'limit' the inequalities possible from random variables, so although the experimental results vary from QM (as they're subjective) they actually exceed the QM violations. The non subjective mechanism which the experiment models reproduces the QM (Cos^2) predictions precisely.

            I think we've exposed the real problem which your proposals just stop short of addressing; If we're to try different viewpoints, so study 'outlying' propositions, then we can't judge them how we do now, which is against current doctrine. We must 'step back', disengage from our assumptions and return to fundamentals and 1st principles. So away from Bell/CHSH, right back to Bohr, Solvay and EPS.

            Bohr said only 'what we can say' about particles; "superposed states collapse to singlet states on measurement". He never endowed that with any particular physical reality. Bell unknowingly did. My description agrees with Bohr and findings, but not what Bell assumed, i.e. If we can only measure the 'spin' direction of one hemisphere at a time we've satisfied Bohr, even if the other hemisphere spins the other way. Now add some modern joined-up-science; electron spin flip and angular momentum transfer and the jigsaw puzzle pieces simply all slot together; If we flip the DETECTOR electron spins round ('preparation') then the OPPOSITE photomultiplier will click!

            The rest is simple geometry; The circumference at any hemisphere changes by the cosine of the angle with the equatorial plane (thus the 'cones' in the Bloch sphere). Entanglement is simply the fact that the equatorial planes are common, because they're orthogonal to the spin axis which is the propagation axis.

            Now that answer is so beautifully simple (Occam) that it can't be even countenanced by those distracted By Bell and CHSH and using those to try to solve the puzzle. Though fully falsifiable, as you say, the experimenters are focussed elsewhere. I don't even get responses to Emails! Can you now help there?

            So the EPR paradox is resolved without FTL or spookyness. And what's more, and even more shocking, the fundamental recognition of EM field electron absorption and re-emission allows SR to take an equal step towards QM with the simple definition that all re-emissions are at c in the rest frame of each electron. That is a eureka moment well beyond the brain of anybody stuck within present doctrinal 'brackets'.

            The tests and proof are in my last 3 essays, but can we suspend reliance on current doctrine and beliefs long enough to study it? Not yet it seems. If your essay suggests we should work that way, and can implement that new view, then I suggest it's of inestimable value!

            Peter

            PS. I attach the 'classroom experiment' kit below, also a fig from a recent Planck Inst. finding agreeing the 'spin/orbit' - 'spin within spin' model.Attachment #1: Electron_Model_Max_Planck_inst..jpgAttachment #2: 7_Kit._FIG_5.jpg

            Don,

            Thanks. See the attachment in my above post to Doug, I agree there's a close analogy to what are termed the DeBroglie and Compton wavelengths, but also that they may be just two gauges of continuous hierarchy consistent witch Godel etc. and Chaos theory.

            Bell's theorem's logic is circumvented not collided with. I agree it's " founded on a fundamental misconception.", but not quite exactly as you describe. Again see my post to Doug above. Whatever the details It's certainly a case of; "garbage in produces garbage out."

            Don't forget Aspect discarded 99.999% of his data as there was no theory to fit it. There now is. Also repeated with Weihs experiment.

            Thanks for your support. After recovering from reading essays I'll see if I can get anything new from the papers above. Are any of the recent updates?

            Very best wishes

            Peter

            Peter,

            You are right: "no UP in space".

            As I think you know from my essay, the "next Copernican step" can be very effectively catalyzed by sharing the science.

            Furthermore, rather than focus on finding a way to change "who can't think beyond current doctrine", my way is to get those that can to self-identify themselves.

            Thanks for your comments here and on my essay.

            -- Ajay

            Leo,

            Thanks for your kind words. I've read your own quite unique essay and commented there, including on apparent commonalities. It's an interesting thought to find such fundamental harmony 4,000 years apart. I look forward to your detailed and valued comments.

            Best wishes

            Peter

            Luca,

            It sounds like our propositions are very alike, but I've shown that your view of Copenhagen can also be realistic. Unlocking a single invisible padlock releases the chains that prevent both QM and SR from moving towards unification, and the key is that objects have a RANGE of properties, and observer interactions can modulate BETWEEN those rather than just 'imparting' them.

            I greatly look forward to reading your essay and feel a genuine high coming on! I read the Aerts paper and it's astonishing how close they came without recognising the padlock and turning the key (flipping the electron with the filter EM field).

            Of course even when revealed it seems that circumvention of Bells theorem will be ignored as it's not the answer the experts 'expect'. I currently have Richard Gill swearing black is white and denying simple logic as he's solely focussed on the Bell/CHSH barrier which is left behind. Our blind faith in our embedded beliefs in the face of consistent logic and the scientific method is astonishing.

            See you on your blog.

            Peter

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            • Post #110

            Peter,

            The fact is that humanity, as well as everything on this planet, are dynamic processes and as such nature's 'technology.' I'm certainly willing to give your paper a go, address is brodix at earthl!nk.net.

            However, as you have well experienced, we all interface with our world on our own terms and your set of criteria are likely somewhat different from mine. Having been following the various debates over on Joy's thread at a distance, I can well understand there is a solution buried in all the assumptions. As I've been pointing out, even a moving car doesn't have an exact location, because it wouldn't be moving if it did and yet if we examine it in very precise moments, great detail does emerge. Much the same with the subatomic reality of which it is composed. If everything had a precise location, there would be no car. It is all that quantum fuzziness which makes up the fields that create the spatial and temporal illusion which is the car. This then goes to my observation about the dichotomy of energy and information, that while energy is inherently dynamic, information is necessarily static and since physics likes to think everything can be defined down to exact forms of information, all that fuzziness just comes up as noise in their search for the signal.

            Now if you can either show me where this is wrong, or more that I'm not seeing, it would be helpful to the extent is makes better sense of the reality in which I exist. Similarly, if you want to move vast numbers of people to be on their better behavior, with regards to the future health of the planet, you need to show how your model affects them directly. Simply improving the technology doesn't necessarily slow the overall rate we burn through resources. As people have understood since the time of Adam, Eve, the apple and the serpent, knowledge can be a double edged sword.

            "A billion bumper stickers or preachers won't change behaviour. However profound it mostly reduces to esoteric waffle. I'm a doer. Only the guy who turns the wheel can steer. Look back, it's always been technology ('tools') that's changed our path and opened new roads and ways of seeing ahead.'

            Remember, the rudder is in the rear and steering requires taking more than just the path ahead into account. Sometimes the esoteric waffle can be just still air and sometimes it can be blowing gale force. Moving people is as much art as science.

            Regards,

            John

              Peter,

              I would also argue the proper measurement function of that collective fuzziness is thermal.

              Regards,

              John

              Hello Peter:

              Thank you for logging onto my essay discussion. I'm afraid I'm swamped and won't be able to getting round to reading & rating your essay until next week.

              best regards

              Kevin O'Malley

              Dear Peter,

              However Aerts paper helps to understand, why the Bell inequalities do not hold. Abramsky and Hardy show that all the possible inequalities can be derived from the really simple what they call Logical Bell inequality. As in Aerts and your model because of the disturbance, the Kolmogorov probability axiom do not hold anymore (as Aerts shows) also the Logical Bell inequalities do not hold for these models and so the ordinary Bell and CHSH inequalties.

              Luca