Steve Agnew: "Wondering if there is life after death really comes down to a question of how well science understands the quantum binding between a mind and consciousness into reality.To understand any kind of consciousness after death, that consciousness would still need to be a part of this universe and not a part of some other universe or dimension, i.e., supernatural agents or ghosts are by definition not part of the universe and are therefore just beliefs that people must simply have. "

To say that supernatural agents and ghosts are not part of the universe is unknown at this time. But then to jump to the conclusion that "ghosts are only a belief" is itself a belief. You skeptic atheists keep forgetting that big bangs coming from nothing is sleight of hand. We all know this. It is much more rational to assume that the big bang was an even that occurred in some larger existence that is undetectable at this time. You could say that the big bang was an event that occurred in the ethers, or you could just as easily say that Infinite Consciousness, aka God, created this universe in order to have something to explore, and that God created souls as extensions of His Consciousness. Ghosts are just souls that do not return to heaven (go into the light).

You can be ask skeptical as you wish. You can even ignore a good solid haunting by a hard working ghost if you wish. Most of the scientific community is already doing this.

Believing in supernatural agents or not believing in them are indeed both beliefs. The big bang is also a belief in the supernatural and so is the belief in an agent that created the big bang.

Since I believe in the supernatural agents of mother earth and father time, that means that I am not an atheist. My agents go back to the dawn of humanity and so predate all of the later agents that come from ancient stories. My supernaturalisms are consistent with the matter and time that are both within this universe so I just like you do not have to invent any others.

Hardcore atheist-skeptic converts to belief in life after death. His name is John S. Weiss.

http://www.johnsweiss.com/intriguing-quotes.html

Article by skeptic and former atheist John S. Weiss.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/column.php?id=239489

Steve, you can believe whatever you wish. But I think the most likely explanation is that we survive death of the physical body.

Akinbo,

Could it all be turbulence at the subatomic scale? Basically that's how Peter's boat and the experiment you describe effectively relate it.

Regards,

JohnM

Stern-Gerlach 1922 gave rise to Heisenberg's infinite Hermitian matrices and Schroedinger's equivalent representation as a complex wave function. Schroedinger managed to derive a non-relativistic explanation of the hydrogen spectrum. Then Max Born suggested to interpret the square of wave function as probability distribution of the position of a point-like object.

Is this correct? I am not aware of a paper by Born that justified his detour from the musts of Fourier transformation.

Peter,

I decided to leave the overly long thread and focus on basic QM matters. Nonetheless, I am ready to deal with your other arguments too.

Eckard

Thanks John M. Concerning, "Could it all be turbulence at the subatomic scale?", I will like to ask whether what is smooth, that is, not made of parts, can be turbulent?

The linked write-up dwelt a lot on fluid turbulence. Can water be turbulent if it was not made of numerous molecules of H20? Can a single H20 molecule display turbulence or does turbulence require a multitude?

Is it still justified today that Space is excluded from Quantum mechanics and its Copenhagen interpretation just because Space despite its omnipresence is silent, uncomplaining, doesn't make a loud noise, transparent and cannot be seen thus appearing "hidden", when General relativity claims Space can be vibrated and be made "variable", which vibrations are propagated as gravitational waves?

What is your take on the 'pilot wave', 'hidden variable' theories?

Akinbo

John,

I approached it 'top down', so the big picture came first then the falsification; I understand what you're saying, but it looks quite different that way. The 'big picture' model I found simple and coherent said that QM should be derivable classically down to some far smaller limit. That's what my recent work shows.

If you recall that SR is resolve in the DFM by simple electron scattering to c in the ELECTRON rest frame, not some other, then you can see how the QM solution resolves with exactly the same simple coherent model. The electrons impose their will (speed and spin direction) on each tiny bit of EM wavefront that meets them.

Coming back up from the bottom I now seem to have it surrounded! But the real problem is it's entirely self consistent, which is so different to entrenched doctrine I can't see it ever being adopted! None the less I'll continue to try to find simpler explanations.

Which bits still sound incoherent to you? if any?

John C.

It works all ways; wave, particle, wavefront, torus, or spheroid, photon or electron and actually IS 'all ways' subject to viewpoint and scale!!

Perhaps best think of a 'speck' photon of energy on the surface of a causal Schrodinger sphere wavefront propagating on a helical path while also 'spinning'.

It comes across this big powerful electron, as do it's mates each side, as well as those on the waves in front and behind. The electron may be spinning on ANY axis (so also either more cw OR ccw.)

The speck of energy retains it's existence and axis (slightly 'rotated if the electron is moving sideways = KRR & aberration) but it's modulated to the ELECTRONS spin direction (cw/ccw) and speed subject to the 'latitude' (so spin speed/OAM) of the impact tangent point on the surface. So when it hits the photodetectors it trips only one, and with a 'probability rate' subject to energy.

And that's it! It can be reversed, and it's energy varies by the cosine of the angle of the electron! Shockingly that's all that's needed to reproduce QM's predictions!

Now I could run through a similar description with 'all particles' or 'all waves' to the same effect. The point is that the 'spin' is at many recursive size 'scales', and we've decoded the one at the 'scale of interest'. (that allows the 'noise in Shannon's channel to be decoded. as my previous IQbit essay).

I'm sure we are progressing, but everyone in the world has a different picture! Does that description make better sense?

best wishes

Peter

Akinbo,

Thanks. The NEW rev.B 2 page summary paper is now lodged ans should be accessible here;

Classical reproduction of quantum correlations.

Do let me know how easy it was to make sense of, or which bits you stumbled over. Thanks, and heartiest congratulations on your paper's acceptance for publication. Do post a link.

(Pilot wave theory emerges coherently there as just one typical 'scale' relationship of a whole sequence of fractal scales, applicable to that scale).

Best

Peter

Eckard,

I agree, using 'frequency' was metaphysics as time is not an entity. The scalar wavelength was the tie to reality. The 'ground state' is then the wave median, so negative values are implicit. I think a new thread's a good idea. I'm happy to discuss sensible physics anywhere. I'll put down a **MARKER HERE WITH SOME BOLD CAP'S SO IT'S EASIER TO LOCATE IN THE COMING WEEKS!!**

I think the 'probabilistic' description is a quite valid secondary one. But the failure to find a logical PRIMARY derivation of QM from classical mechanics left it as the ONLY one. I agree with Bell, "professional physicists ought to be able to do better." As I show in my IQbit essay, the Born Rule should simply allow a wave validity in 3D, which is a helix. Again missing this simple reality allowed physics deeper into the 'Wonderland' Dodgson created for Alice.

But I think we should consider all that as 'water under the bridge'. I suggest the correct solution is before us so the sooner the old nonsense is retired to history and forgotten the better. I've now condensed more into the 2 page summary, including my new finding that John Bell agreed almost the EXACT solution I've proposed, but was tripped up by just ONE wrong assumption, and missed one dynamic cosine geometry (OAM distribution with spherical latitude).

The assumption he made was that photons propagated as particles and not just their spin but their AXIS was random. That caused the problem. If the spin axis is also the propagation axis then the axis (and equatorial spin plane) are the 'entanglement', so the (Wigner'd'Espangnat) inequality he hit doesn't apply!

I hope you'll give the short summary a very careful read and rigorous criticism.

Classical reproduction of quantum correlations. Summary; B.

Best wishes

Peter

Pete,

Thanks, actually the 'speck' analogy makes more sense of your quantum/causal correlation in that it does become more mathematical than what I'd been looking for, which was more of a '3D+t' visual form. I do not think that being self consistent is a drawback, that is what is often referred to as 'bootstrapped' and lends itself to presentation as background independent or 'co-ordinate free', being that the co-ordinates can then be built within the framework of the model rather than placing the model inside a co-ordinate framework. That seemed to me to be implied in the first place. I'm becoming a bit overwhelmed again in the myriad complexity that evolves in an attempt to look inside the standard model, and even if a dynamic visual form were made theoretically possible we would probably have to track a multitude of trajectories of material points to have a 'snapshot' of inter-reactive fields. Break time, jrc

Peter,

I'm perfectly willing to go along with what you are saying, but I'm lost on a lot of it. We simply come from different situations and have different desires and goals in this quest. I spend my life dealing with large animals. They are both very conscious and very physical. That is my starting point and area of focus. They don't have religions and their politics are very elementary.

I get so I can physically read their minds, by pretty much turning mine off. They are much more thermal, ie, non-linear, than temporal/rationally linear. You just can't get too far away from the basics of energy and form.

Yet there is an incredible amount of nuance to everything about them and so trying to deal with detail is not possible. It is about surfing the wave, riding the wind and all the combinations thereof, not to mention that the wind you are riding really does have a mind of its own.

While I've been doing this for 50 years now, I'm not a big detail person. Having started out around bossy people and usually finding myself in their company and working for them, I don't stress over all the details, as my talent is just being able to stay upright and stay on. I am not reaching for the stars, simply because there is way too much happening down here on the ground and since most people seem to have their heads up in the stars, or clouds, anyway, it gives me quite a bit of room to function. I'm happy in my ignorance.

Regards,

John M

John Brodix Merryman replied on Jul. 4, 2014 @ 02:51 GMT

"I would just like to point out black holes are nonsense as well. It's a vortex. What energy doesn't get radiated away, as it spins ever tighter, gets shot out the poles!! As usual, they are only looking at half the equation, obviously the condensing/reductionistic side. What is at the center is just the eye of the storm. That's why the 'physics breaks down."

It is really not necessary to say what black holes really are, just what they are not. What black holes are not is a stopage of time and a place that sustains any outlaw theory. Black holes are simply the boson stars of the universe.There actually is a whole literature on boson stars awaiting our evolution...

    We both can believe whatever we wish because belief is very flexible and yet very necessary. Most likely is a different metric that has to do with probabilities and so is consistent with quantum action. It is very nice that you seem to follow the notion of probabilistic quantum action in the survival of the physical body.

    You will indeed make a great physics ghost.

    "You will indeed make a great physics ghost. " -- Steve Agnew.

    Lol. Maybe I'll use quantum entanglements to move things around in the kitchen. Actually, if given the chance in the afterlife, what I really want to do is move objects around on some atheist professors desk.

    Dear Peter,

    Stern-Gerlach dealt with atoms. For all those who interpreted their experiment it was quite natural that particles (fermions) don't have a preferred orientation in space. It is seemingly more natural that photons (bosons) have a natural axis of spin, their direction of motion. As usual, the most naturally seeming assumptions were not questioned. Isn't same true for the principle of relativity?

    In other words, it might not be the particles that are spinning but positive or negative spin can be attributed to the direction of quanta of energy transfer. I would like to replace the question "why quantum?" by "why quantum nonsense?", why did a seemingly natural assumption imply nonsensical and mystical theories up to Jason's ghosts?

    Regards,

    Eckard

    "I would like to replace the question "why quantum?" by "why quantum nonsense?", why did a seemingly natural assumption imply nonsensical and mystical theories up to Jason's ghosts?" -Eckard Blumschein

    Because of all of the encounters with ghosts by very believable people. Because we have to ask if ghosts are somehow compatible with quantum mechanics because people keep seeing them. Because "consciousness" is not reducible to standard model particles, not even in principle.

    By the way, to say that quantum mechanics is deterministic is deceptive. While the mathematics might be deterministic, the actual measurements are random. Honestly, that should tell you folks that something fishy is going on with quantum mechanics.

    In fact, I would even go so far as to say that consciousness has free will because QM is random.

    Steve,

    There are a lot of potentially exotic bodies out there. I just think not enough credence is given to the fact that galaxies radiate light and other forms of energy out over areas many billions of lightyears across. This would have to be accounted for, from the mass falling into them. Then that mass is coalescing back out of that energy, in an overall cycle. My suspicion is that we will eventually explain redshift as an effect of the intergalactic expansion of this radiation, balancing the mass density in overall flat space.

    As such an optical effect, it would explain why we appear at the center, without having to say space itself expands, but still assuming a constant speed of light against which to measure it, which is contradictory. Also there would be no need for dark energy, since those galaxies are not actually moving away and the curvature of the rate of expansion could be explained as a compounding effect of this redshift. Obviously no need for inflation either.

    Gravity would be an overall effect of all contraction processes, not just its own force, starting with light collapsing from waves to photons and the dark matter issue would wash out with a better understanding there.

    Obviously this is light on all the specifics, but while I might not have my nose pressed against the glass as close as many, it does get rid of most of those theoretical elements which mostly serve to bridge the many gaps between theory and observation.

    Regards,

    John M